I recently interviewed Ambassador Ron Kirk on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today served as a cabinet member in the Obama administration as the United States Trade Representative. Ambassador Ron Kirk was the first African American United States Trade Representative, and the first African American mayor of Dallas. Ambassador Kirk, thank you for joining us.

Ambassador Kirk: Well, Adam, it's an honor to be with you. I'm looking forward to a hopefully engaged and enlightening conversation.

Adam: The honor is mine. You spent more than 15 years serving as mayor of Dallas. And before that, you were the Secretary of State of Texas. Can you take listeners back to your even earlier days? What sparked your interest in politics? And how did you break into the world of politics?

Ambassador Kirk: Well, you know, Adam, I've probably been in public service 15 years. I spent two turns as mayor of Dallas, a year as Texas Secretary of State in 1994, to Governor and several years working for members of Congress and others before my tenure as U.S. trade Rep. But the reality is, I'm a kid. And like so many of my generation, who grew up in the segregated style, you and I were talking off the record about a love of sports in Texas, California. But the reality of Jim Crow, when I grew up, was the Great Migration that took place in the south, in the 40’s and 50’s, west of the Mississippi, for the most part, people of color, and black people in particular migrated to California. But I stayed here for years. And I was both a firsthand beneficiary of the civil rights movement, but also a firsthand witness of all of the difficulties that my parents had to suffer because of these insidious rules around Jim Crow, and someone's definition of what black people could and couldn't do. Nothing was more central to that than the right to vote. So as a kid, even, you know, as early as eight, nine years old, Adam, if you had asked me what I wanted to be, I would have told you, I wanted to be a lawyer, which is what I went on, to study graduate from the University of Texas law school, and have practiced law in addition to my career in public service, but I saw the law as a much more certain venue to bring about social change, and ensure not only blacks, but all Americans the rights guaranteed within our Constitution. I saw the law as a much better environment for that, frankly, than the political process. But having witnessed everything my parents endured to get the right to vote, that just wasn't in my DNA, to not take on that fight. And that gift to vote, as bravely as my parents had worked to give it to me, seriously. So I've always had this twin love, law and politics, and it just so happened over the course of my career as a lawyer I had different opportunities to be engaged in public service and political life and legislative affairs.

Adam: I love that. When I was in college, I had a class and the president of the University at the time, Steven Sample, was a guest speaker and he said that in your lifetimes, you're going to have five to six different careers, not jobs, but careers and thinking about what you just shared- you've had a career as a mayor, you've had a career as trade ambassador, your career now as a partner in a law firm, I'm sure. We'll talk about other careers you've had. And I wanted to know if you could share with listeners, what were the skills that you developed early on, that helped you throughout the various careers that you've enjoyed and what are the skills that you recommend anyone listening to this conversation develop?

Ambassador Kirk: Well, you know, the annum now I am privileged to be the father of two remarkable young women who are now 29. One just turned 32. One studied art history in Colombia, and then doubled down and my youngest got a degree in dance from NYU. A lot of friends sort of raise their hand to go, wow, money for an art history major and a dance. But the one thing that I always told them, as soon as they started even thinking about colleges, here, you're going to be happier ultimately, if you do what you love. And if that meant, you know, life as a dancer and an artist, which the artist later on, got a law degree. But I also told them that whatever you believe in, show me the plan. And our families, mom was a vision without a plan as a whole. And so what I would say to any of your listeners, you know, it's not up to Adam or me or any of your numerous guests on this 30 Minute Mentor podcast, to define for you what you want to do. But I think those who listen to your podcast, Adam, probably hear similar sayings; commit to preparing yourself for what it is that you believe you want to be, whether that's in arts, or engineering, or social justice, or medicine, or political change. And don't be the biggest obstacle to your success. Believe in yourself, believe in your dream, refuse to take no for an answer. If one way doesn't work, be willing to try something else. Be open to new pathways to get to where you're going. I really loved you sharing the story about the professor telling you that you might have five or six careers. You know, when you and I grew up, our parents had one job working in one industry for their lives. And that's just not the reality of the world today. What I would say to anyone listening is just to be persistent about becoming the absolute best at what it is you believe you are called to do. Whether that's in a professional career, it's an art, in science, whatever that is, first of all, master your craft. And I think if you do that you will inherently bring positivity, joy and energy to it that either makes people want to help you succeed, or work with you to succeed or want you to be a part of their team. And it may sound a bit like a cliche, but I've always believed one of my gifts came from my DNA and my family's belief in God and God gave me a gift. It was just a gift of joy. I'm one of those people who wakes up at 5:30 or 6:00 every morning excited about what the day's gonna bring. And I've always believed you have two choices. If you believe something different and exciting and unique or funny or interesting is going to happen to you in the course of the day, you're pretty likely to encounter something that meets one of those criteria. And likewise, if you're one of the people who grows up in this, and you’re pretty sure somebody thinks something to offend you or insult you and take you for granted, you'll find that as well. Now, this doesn't mean you can wish your way to Hawaii without controversy. But I think attitude, belief in yourself, investing in your education, preparation, all go a long way to helping you build success.

Adam: I love that. I love literally everything you shared. You lead a major U.S. city, you lead a major federal agency. What is your approach to leadership? And what do you believe are the most important characteristics of an effective leader?

Ambassador Kirk: Well, you know, I think there are a number and, you know, that's as many times as I've been asked that question, I think I'd have a better answer. But when I became mayor, I literally took a yellow pad and wrote down not just political figures and people in public office, but all of the leaders, business people that I'd ever been exposed to. Teachers that I thought were good leaders and why. And I wrote down the characteristics about that one, they had a clarity and purpose mentioned, that was easily understood to be more affirming than not. They tended to empower the people around them to be a part of that organization. They were willing to work as hard as any one else in that organization. I'm just such a huge believer in that saying that culture beats strategy every day. They know how to create a culture that empowers people to believe that their dream is wrapped up in the dream of the organization. And if they work hard to fulfill that dream, then we also will and I just believe the best leaders know how to motivate people to do things that they wouldn't otherwise do. And they also have to be flexible. You have to realize each of us believes that we have different talents, different insights, different skill sets, and all of us want to be heard, all of us will know, as I like to say, everybody wants to be a part of a picture in which we each get a paintbrush. Now that may not be a masterpiece. But if you've given me a paintbrush, I'm gonna fight and defend that picture as hard as anyone who went out and just hired someone to paint a picture to that shape and color and form and was recognized. But I think if you bring those skills, that talent, your competency, your clarity, your vision, your willingness to empower those around you. Those are skill sets, I think, that'll serve you well, whether you are leading a business, running and sitting, running a federal agency, running a nonprofit organization. Those are skill sets, I think that have served well.

Adam: One of the leaders who you spent quite a bit of time with, whether it was on the golf course or in cabinet meetings, was former President Obama. Two questions for you. Number one is, could you share with listeners the story of the first time you met President Obama and the advice that you gave him? And number two, what is the single best leadership lesson that you learned from President Obama?

Ambassador Kirk: Well, the first is more humbling out of my hand. I was mayor of Dallas from 1995 to 2001, at which time I resigned to run for an open U.S. Senate seat here. In fact, I won the Democratic nomination and like, I mean, if any of you even remotely follow politics on this podcast, you'll know running for a federal law is just a slog. That's one of the most brutal experiences you can ever go through principally because of the length you have to go through to raise money. But long story short, I was in Chicago for a fundraiser that was moderately successful, but for one chance encounter, when the fundraiser was over, I was leaving. And me and my one staffer got on the elevator and these two kids got on and one was this tall, skinny, you know, nice looking kid, but that I thought had unreasonably large ears, who stood in the corner and didn't say a word. And the other guy was a guy like you. And he did all the talking to me about how impressed they were with my campaign and everything. And he began to explain to me that his friend was thinking about making a run for the U.S. Senate in Chicago. And he asked me, he says, do you have any advice for my friend? I turned to him at that point, because I didn't know who he was. And I asked him, I said, look, I presume if you're interested in public service, you can speak for yourself. And I said, what's your name? And he laughed, and he said, my name is Barack Obama. Do you have any advice for me? And I will clean it up for radio, but I may or may not have suggested that he changed his name if he wished to do politics, but remember, 2000, 2002 this is six months after 9/11 and 2001, when our country had been shocked by that horrific attack on our soil for the first time in years. The most hated comment man in the world at the time was Osama Bin Laden, and here's this kid named Barack Hussein Obama running for office. But out of that we laughed and developed the friendship principally because of his interest in how I had convinced my wife, who was a Wharton educated economist at the time, to support me running for mayor of Dallas. When I ran for mayor, my daughters were six and three years old, not much older than Sasha and Malia were at the time. So initially, Adam, our bond was around our love of public service. But how to manage that with raising a very young family with two very empowered, intelligent wives, who had dreams of having, you know, as I like to say, income producing spouses and not a couple of broke politicians. But anyway, subsequently, when he ran, I supported him. We became great friends. And when he was elected, he gave me, I guess, the highest honor you could get. If any of you ever have a friend like the president, and that was asking me to serve in his cabinet, which I said, Yeah. What most impressed me about President Obama, and I think you'll hear this from a lot of people, you know, there are people who are, you know, born leaders, you know, whether it's Magic Johnson, you know, Abraham Lincoln, or whatever. And you can see that, and as I described him, at one event, I introduced him. He was taller, was better looking than I was, younger than I was, smarter. What's not to like about him? As often as it's been repeated, and I know there are those who think it was some sort of political concoction towards the election, that the phrase that you hear No Drama Obama was true. His ability to assemble a cabinet of some of the most talented people in our country from diverse backgrounds, have everyone at the table, give them the privilege of their voice, their opinion, but then be able to assimilate all of that very quickly and say, look, I've heard you all, it's important that I have differences of opinion. But I'm going to agree with Adam. And I think we've got to go that way. And the ability to make an informed decision on a matter that has no certain outcome is the hardest thing that a president has to do. And I for one, was impressed by and admired the president’s intellect, his calmness, and his brain and being able to do that.

Adam: There's so much to unpack there. And I just want to highlight a few key takeaways for listeners. That number one is around relationship building. So much of what you shared, focuses on how you got to know President Obama, how you became friends with President Obama. And that bond had nothing to do with your ideological views and had nothing to do with the fact that you are a Democrat, he's a democrat. You're from this state. He's from that state. It was all about friendship, family, wives, kids, and shared experiences. And for anyone listening, who's trying to think about how to develop authentic relationships, in business and in life, I think a lot of the advice that you'll hear from guests, and the most important advice you could take away from this conversation is relationship building has to be authentic. I also want to highlight what you shared around some of the key characteristics around leadership that made President Obama so successful: surrounding yourself with great people, listening to the people around you, and not being afraid to make hard decisions. Without having a great team around you, you're not going to be able to succeed. And why have great people around you if you're not going to listen to them. And ultimately, the buck stops at the top. You're the president. You're the CEO. Whatever role you're in, even if you're not the head of your organization, you could be the head of your department, you have to make hard decisions. You can't pass the buck. So I thought that there was so much great advice there and really appreciate you sharing.

Ambassador Kirk: Adam, if I can I want to come back to that, because when we were talking about what to delete, or what are the trade for that buyer, the best leaders I've ever been around, whether it's in a corporate setting, and as you know, I've been privileged to serve on a number of corporate boards, including Fortune 500 Companies. The best leaders I've ever been around believe that they have hired and brought in the most talented people you could find anywhere. And they are excited, you know, they are excited to come in and go, I can't wait to meet this young kid that we just brought in. Adam Mendler, he's gonna help us do it. And Adam, you're going to get a lot of people around a lot of leaders. And sadly, you can tell within minutes when you walk in a room, and you've got a leader who's hired a bunch of people, none of whom rise to that level of being a threat to his or her success. They aren't interested in it. They're successful. And that's a dangerous place to be, no matter how bright you are. You have to assemble talent, you know, no matter what happened to the rest of his career, Jack Welch, who, at the height of his influence, was noted for the ridiculous amount of talent he assembled when he was running G.E.,- we looked into the sports context. And I know that it's more difficult now with salary caps. You know, at the height, you and I were talking, we were both loyal to our Dallas and L.A. teams. But, you know, back in the height of the Cowboys success 25 years ago, when Jimmy Johnson, you know, took over the cowboys and had Troy Aikman who played you know, the Oklahoma kid who got to stardom at UCLA. People forget two years later, he drafted Steve Walsh, and Troy Aikman was the number one draft pick. And everybody said, are you worried about Troy's ego? And Jimmy stayed with Troy- he's not the quarterback I need him to be. I mean, the best leaders believe in assembling the most talent that they can, and not in a way, you know, they have this crap barrel, you know, you and I are fighting each other. But there is a recognition, I need to know where my blind spots are. And the one thing that I admit- and forgive me about debt, and what it takes to be a great leader, it's the humility to know what you don't know and the strength to realize, I'm gonna go hire the best finance person, marketing person, communication person, the best person to help me understand, you know, this new generation of social media are ESG standards. And they assemble a team in which around a table, you can say, look, guys, I know that, but this new stuff- that's where I need your help. And that's also an easy way to make people feel valued, because they know now that the leader, the President of the United States, the head of the Fortune 500 company, the head of the business I'm working for is looking for me to help solve a problem, they believe they cannot themselves.

Adam: Such great advice all the way around. And I just want to build on what you shared simply because you brought up football. And for listeners who have familiarity with college football, I'll give two examples. One is, during my time as a student at USC, Pete Carroll was the head coach. And what Pete Carroll did was stack every position with the best players possible and have open competition, quarterback, running back, wide receiver, linebacker and practice would be incredibly intense, because players would be out there fighting for their spots on the depth chart. So it didn't matter if you were the number one guy or the number two guy or number three guy on Monday, by the end of the week, you could be a backup or you could be a starter. So that's so important, whether you're in college football, or whether you're in corporate America. And a second example I want to give is in another part of the country in Alabama, Nick Saban, who is without question, the most revered college football coach today. One of the things that makes Nick Saban so great is that he stacks his entire coaching staff with the best coaches in the country, anytime a former head coach is available, Nick Saban brings him in. To be a great leader, you have to be comfortable in your own skin, you can't be afraid that you're going to bring someone in who is going to take over your job. You have to view the talent that is around you as talent that is complementary to you.

Ambassador Kirk: And you mentioned that and you have to be comfortable. You're Pete Carroll, you have to be comfortable knowing, you know what, I've just gone and stolen, you know, Adam Mendler, Ron Kirk or whoever. But I also know that if they make me great, they're gonna get a head coaching job. And the best leaders don't stand in the way of you doing that. And it wasn't just that they nurtured them and were afraid, but they also supported them. So now we've got deep guards, Keynesian at the University of Texas, and you think so many others of his alumni, but then he mentioned USC. I have to tell you about coming to L.A. My fondest memory of sitting in the Rose Bowl when Ben Young led my University of Texas Longhorns, I think I'm upset and one of the greatest college games ever, ever. And since we're talking about traits, this interview is going so well, up until that point. Well, but that wouldn't have happened, if that wouldn't have happened. But for Mack Brown, finally recognizing you know what, Vince Young is an unconventional way. And if I tried to make him the quintessential pocket pair, you know, he's not mad, or he's not being funny. And at some point, Mack Brown decided, you know what, Vince, you're elite. And at the end of the day, you win, it's gonna look different than everybody else. And leaders understand that not everyone around us is going to operate in the same paradigm that we do. But if somebody is really, really talented, giving them a little bit of flexibility, to do it differently, to beat them. The battle can be the difference between coming up with that next idea that takes your company forward, but winning and losing, versus trying to force everybody into the same box, the same paradigm, because that's the way you were right. And then the best leader somehow has the ability to do that.

Adam: If a USC fan and a Texas fan can be friends, maybe Democrats and Republicans can get along.

Ambassador Kirk: I've got to make that one. I'm in Texas, and I remind, you know, I am blessed to be a part of a law firm that has the breadth and depth of talent that we do. As I was talking to you before. You know, Gibson Dunn was founded in Los Angeles with five offices in Los Angeles, our two biggest offices are in New York and Washington. But then we have offices in Denver, Dallas, and Houston, in addition to 11, around the world, and I'm always telling my partners on the east and west coast, there really is something to living in the middle of the country in these days, because you do get a little bit of a nuanced balance. And for those who are struggling to come to grips with the seemingly irreversible path to sort of political destruction, I would remind you, there's a reason so many people are drawn to the very genuine friendship and affection between former President Bush and First Lady Michelle Obama, because you could lose sight of the fact we can argue over ideas, but you don't have to argue about care. You know, and I am privileged to have been friends with both President and Laura Bush, just as I have with the Obamas and many others. And I tell people, no matter what you may have thought of George Bush's performance as President, the reason his image has been rehabilitated so quickly, is because the Bushes are just some of the kindest, most decent people there are. And if you start out every conversation, well, where does he stand on abortion, all this, you can lose sight of the fact that we're all with you. We're all flawed and our own way. But we have so much in common and if we can focus on those commonalities. There's not a family I know, Democrat or Republican, conservative, ethnic whatever, that doesn't ultimately want the best for their family. You know, I learned about this mayor. As I said, everybody wants the police, the rest are the good, the bad guys, the big gentlemen. Oh, they're good. I mean, we are not that different in our aspirations. But we have allowed social media and the megaphone now, that social media gives the most strident voices to make us forget, we basically all have the same dream. We want to go as far as our talent. And a mission will take us, we hope and pray that our kids will have a better future than we did. And we want to determine our own destiny. And if we can keep that in mind, maybe there's some common ground and that can help us overcome some of the challenges that we're seeing, particularly in Washington.

Adam: I love it. Before we go, I want to ask you a few rapid-fire questions. When you were U.S. trade rep, you negotiated trade agreements with Colombia, Panama, and South Korea. What are your best tips on the topics of negotiations and deal-making?

Ambassador Kirk: The best negotiators understand, it's only a good deal in particular when you have the upper hand. And in any trade negotiation, we start out with the reality, all of the rest of the world wants access to the American Bar. But whenever that agreement is over, you want to be able to come out and say we both got to have a little limp. Understand the other person's point of view, what their objectives are, and, you know, not rubbing it in their face. The immediate former president always felt the need to do that. But having that empathy, but also being very clear in what your objectives are and what you want to achieve. And you just have to be firm in working to get that, but I'm always trying to create a win-win so both parties can walk away, feeling like they achieved the victory.

Adam: As someone who's broken barriers throughout your life and your career, what are the keys to breaking past whatever obstacles anyone may be facing?

Ambassador Kirk: You know, I would start at the beginning of our conversation. You just have to believe in yourself, not let other people define you, particularly in a world in which we are increasingly cognizant of the value of having not just diversity of thought, but diversity of leadership that women, people of color, people who love differently all need to be at the table, none of us are going to come to that table with the same background experiences. So one, being willing to forgive people for their mistakes, help them understand maybe why what they said or thought could be interpreted as hurtful to someone in that and then just again, being true to yourself and your own dream. You are important, because of our differences. America's advantage over the rest of the world over the last 70 years is that, as imperfect as we are, we are the one country that, you know, since World War Two, began to open our shores and said, Tell you what, they won't appreciate your talent in Eastern Europe, and Africa and other parts of the world. You're welcome to come to America. And that diversity of thought is what led some of the best and brightest minds from around the world here. And just remember that and never question the value of your vote.

Adam: What can anyone do to become a better leader?

Ambassador Kirk: Listen, read, observe. And I hope it doesn't sound like a jerk. But yeah, my number one advice. Don't be a jerk. I thought of leaders I admired and why and one commonality was their respect for the people with whom they work. Don't be the leader, the boss, you had that you thought was the worst because they treated the sports staff without respect. They treated you like you know, a fungible asset. Just be a decent human being and you Adam, you're a little younger. But if any fellow wrote a book, probably 30 years ago, Robert Fuller wrote this simple little business book, on the premise that everything looking back over his life, he said everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten- play fair respect others, you know, be a decent person. That'll carry you a pretty long way.

Adam: Ambassador Kirk, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Ambassador Kirk: Thank you for having me and I look forward to an off the record conversation over that greatest football game ever. Thank you.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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