I recently interviewed Ambassador Wendy Sherman on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today was the lead negotiator of the Iran nuclear deal. Ambassador Wendy Sherman served as Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs under President Obama; as the policy coordinator for North Korea under President Clinton, and was the founding president and CEO of the Fannie Mae foundation. Ambassador Sherman is also the author of not for the faint of heart. Lessons encouraged power and persistence. Ambassador Sherman, thank you for joining us.

Ambassador Sherman: Delighted to be with you, Adam, and with your listeners.

Adam: Thanks again. You started your career as a social worker before moving into politics and diplomacy. What are some of the key skills you developed early on in your career that helped shape your success and what are some of your best tips for those early on in their careers?

Ambassador Sherman: Thanks, Adam. I tell my students- I'm now a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School and Director of the Center for Public leadership, so my life now is about helping folks who are in graduate school who've already done some work and want to move on to the next part of their career, a few just out of undergraduate school, but most who've had one or two jobs already, that I wish them all an unexpected life. And what I tell them is to get a core set of skills. For me, those were social work skills, both as a community organizer, as a clinician, and I always joke that my clinical skills have come in very handy with both dictators and members of Congress. But my organizing skills train me to really understand the landscape around an issue or a challenge or a problem. All of the different stakeholders and how they see it, not just what their positions are, but what their interests are, to understand what a group wants to try to achieve a goal that might be realizable, and then figure out how to put a strategy together to bring sometimes disparate people together, or to negotiate towards an outcome. And I use that in my first big job out of graduate school as director of Child Welfare in the state of Maryland. Then I look at that through a very unexpected circumstance, to be Chief of Staff to then Congresswoman Barbara Mikulski. I then, later on, moved on to managing her first successful campaign for the Senate and did lots of politics including Emily's List. I ran campaign 88 when Michael Dukakis was running for president. I ran the campaign at the DNC Democratic National Committee, became a partner and immediate consulting firm and then got a call out of the blue to come and meet Warren Christopher, who was going to be Bill Clinton's Secretary of State. I was called by Tom Donald who was to become Warren, Christopher's Chief of Staff, abs went on to become national security adviser for President Obama. And out of a meeting with Warren Christopher, I ended up becoming the Assistant Secretary for Legislative Affairs for Christopher and I went on to become counselor to Madeleine Albright, then with Madeline and several others, built a private global consulting business, did that for a decade, and then ended up going back into government for first Secretary Clinton and then Secretary Kerry under President Obama and now here I am at Harvard Kennedy School so one ever knows in life. So get that core set of skills, and then really be ready to meet the opportunities that present themselves.

Adam: I would imagine that at many moments along the way, you're the only female in the room, or at least the only female in the room, at the highest level in the room. So I have a few questions on that topic. And number one, can you share any notable experiences in your career and how you managed them? Number two, can you share your best advice for women who may be in similar situations? And number three, what advice do you have for men who might be in that room on how we can best handle that situation?

Ambassador Sherman: Well thank you for all three questions, particularly the last one, which I don't get all that often, but it's really important. I'm now the grandmother to two little boys and I want to make sure, and my daughter wants to make sure, they grow up to think about that question. How can men and women work together to create equal opportunity in the workplace? In my own experience, one thing that has been very crucial for me is, everywhere I have gone, I have built a support network of other women who can call me out when I'm doing stupid things and that can also spur me on when we're all taking challenges together. So when I was director of Child Welfare in Maryland, I was very young. Certainly there were women who were in the workplace, and my boss was the first African American woman in her position as the Secretary of Human Resources for the state of Maryland. So there were women around but we still had plenty of challenges and we would meet on Thursday evenings together, in the inner harbor of Baltimore, just to share experience and to spur each other on and to support each other. When I went to Capitol Hill, I'd never worked on Capitol Hill before; there weren't very many women Chiefs of Staff. I found the other ones who were, we'd meet once a month and somebody brought some Chinese carry out- that was the only thing allowed. So nobody had to cook. And there were five of us. We did this for like a decade, where we would meet and help each other out. And I knew that when I became then Congressman Makowski's Chief of Staff, I wanted to have a child and I told her that on the way in, once I got pregnant, one of the other five of us thought, “Well, if I could do it, so could she.” And these were the days when there were no nursing stations; one had to go into the ladies room to pump and try to find a refrigerator somewhere. So it was quite a different time. So every place I've gone, I've tried to find that group of women so we could back each other up and support each other but also, you know, if we were over our skis we’d get told directly we're over our skis. A secondly, I've learned along the way that your role matters as well. One thing that Madeleine Albright, our first woman Secretary of State taught me when she was the ambassador to the UN, she sat behind a sign, it said the United States of America. And she said to me, “Wendy, when you represent the United States of America, it matters less that you're a woman. In my case that you might be a Jewish American, my case that you're a Caucasian woman, you are the United States of America.” And if you absorb that, and use the power that comes with that, you can do pretty well. And I've always remembered that third and I had this discussion with a woman student the other day, who was worried that she was always buttonholed as the woman or the Latina and she wanted to be taken seriously and I said, you have to to own the identity you have, I can't not be a woman. I cannot not be a Caucasian woman. So I have to own the power that comes with that and then layer on my expertise, my skill, my leadership abilities, so don't run away from who you are. That's an asset. It's how you build on it and with it, that gives you the power in the room. And then, your last question about men. I think having honest conversation with women is important, like the one you and I are having. I think that in meetings, please, please, please, please, please- when a woman says something, listen. Listen really hard. Don't say the same thing five minutes later, because you're going to get the plaudits of all the guys in the room band that woman is going to feel disowned by the room. Acknowledge her. Say, “Wendy, that was a really good comment. I was about to say the same thing. And you said it first. And it was really an important point here ao you can share the ownership of it. And the kudos with it.” But please acknowledge the woman in the room. And then the other thing I'd say is, when you're in an audience, take a moment to let some of the women raise their hands. As I've said to women who are reluctant to raise their hands, it’s because they're trying to put together the most brilliant question in their head before they raise their hand. I say to them, the men just raise their hands. They have no idea what they're going to ask. They just figure by the time they're called on, they'll think of something that they'll say, with so much confidence, no one will pay attention to the fact that it isn't a brilliantly constructed question. So please, create some space. And then I guess one more point; there have been times I've gone to men who have been terrific supporters of mine and said to them, I want you to do for me, what you do for the guys. The next time a really good job comes up, put me on the list. You always put your friends on the list. You all have a club, an unspoken club. Put me on the list. And some wonderful guys who understand how important it is to support women moving forward have done just that. And I'm very grateful to them.

Adam: Ambassador, you shared tremendous advice, and there's so much there for listeners to unpack. I just wanted to highlight one in particular, and that was when you said, you specifically brought it up within the context of women who should really focus on embracing who they are; embracing the fact that they're women, because at the end of the day, why try to run away from what makes you who you are? And I think the beauty of that advice is that it really applies to anyone and everyone, whether you're female, whether you're Jewish, like you are, like I am, whether you're any ethnicity, any religion, any orientation, any background, embrace who you are because at the end of the day, it's who you are that makes you special. It's who you are, that makes you what you are. And as soon as you're comfortable in your own skin, you're going to be more successful in life, and you're going to be more successful as a leader. So I really appreciate you sharing it, particularly within that context.

Ambassador Sherman: I completely agree with you, Adam. We are our most powerful when we are our authentic selves and that is when we are at our very best. So I completely agree.

Adam: You mentioned the leaders who you've worked with who you've worked for who have supported her career. You've worked very closely with two U.S. presidents. You've worked with countless world leaders. Who are the leaders that you admire most and why and what did you learn from them?

Ambassador Sherman: Think every leader that I've admired is different. I certainly have admired President Clinton and President Obama for very different reasons. President Clinton was a master politician. Sometimes that got him in trouble, but he was a master politician. And when you were in the room with him or having a conversation with him, it was as if no one else mattered. He really was an amazing listener. He also had tremendous command of information. When we were at Camp David working on Middle East peace there was nothing he didn't know. It was just extraordinary, his command of information, but his interpersonal skills were extraordinary. And I think it was very, very helpful to him as President, but his political skills and his understanding of the moment and what was needed politically, was not always heralded; he had people leave the administration around his decisions, around welfare reform, but had others who felt he'd reached across the aisle to try to move policy a step forward. President Obama was one of the most ethical people of integrity I've worked with. He also obviously had a smile to beat the band, which was very much in his politics, but when we were doing the Iran agreement when we were working on that negotiation, he was incredibly clear upfront about how he would define success and so he could tell us what the right and left margins were. And then he gave me and he gave Secretary Kerry, tremendous space and authority, always coming back to check in with him, but he had such command of the details of everything we were doing, that he knew what was happening, meaning he could give guidance and then delegate you to try to get the job done. That ability of a leader to have that kind of vision, that clarity, he would listen to different points of view but at the end of the day he would decide having taken in all those points of view, and then he would send you to carry out that vision, checking back in with him but a man with an enormous anchor and enormous center to his very big

Adam: You mentioned the Iran deal, but before we get to that, I want to ask you, what are the best lessons you learned from your experience negotiating with North Korea?

Ambassador Sherman:  Oh, goodness, that was a very strange time. And something I didn't expect to do. I wasn't a North Korea expert. I was down to learn a lot about the history. And it was an example of something I think is also very important. And I've just talked about two presidents. I also could have talked about wonderful secretaries of state like Warren, Christopher and John Kerry and Hillary Clinton and of course, Madeleine Albright, two extraordinary women in that foursome who have been tremendous leaders happy to talk about them as well. But one of the things about North Korea that I learned, and I've learned all my life is the importance of a team. Anything any of us do in life of any great consequence we do not do alone. We do it because we are working with talented experts and colleagues, people above us, people below us, people to our sides who get the job done. Bill Perry, who initially led up the effort in the latter years of the Clinton administration, the former Secretary of Defense was brought in by President Clinton from the outside and then I succeeded Bill, when he stepped away- but I also worked as part of his team- taught me a lot on on top of what I'd already learned all the way back in graduate school about how you put a process together, how you put a team together, and I carry that forward in everything that I've done, and certainly during the Iran nuclear negotiation, having a group of talented experts, when many times you are the generalist. You are the person with political and policy chops in the room; you may be the decision maker at one level is absolutely essential. And I would also add that every team that I've ever had, or helped to gather together I've ensured there was a skeptic on the team because you need to have someone who's always questioning assumptions and trying to keep you honest to what you're doing.

Adam: That's great advice. Surrounding yourself with yes-men doesn't serve anyone. Well, not particularly. What are the best lessons you learned from your experience negotiating the Iran deal, arguably the biggest international deal of our time? What did you learn? What can you share with listeners?

Ambassador Sherman: Well, it's one of the reasons that I wrote the book Not for the Faint of Heart: Lessons in Courage, Power and Persistence. Throughout the book, which is part memoir and part lessons learned, it looks at the Iran nuclear deal, Middle East peace, Cuban negotiations and North Korea- a third of the cases in point with the Iran negotiation being more so the centerpiece than the other three, but the other three included as well. And I think one of the most profound lessons is that none of this is for the faint of heart; that it takes tremendous persistence. People ask me all the time, you know, is it really painful? Am I very sad that President Trump decided to leave the deal? Well, of course I am. But more than anything, I'm concerned for the national security of the country, and of the world, and of our partners and allies, including Israel. And so I keep trying to do what I can. On the day that President Trump withdrew from the deal it happened to be that anniversary just happened. A couple days ago, I was in the two year anniversary. I was invited to Malta of all places and my cell phone rang and it was John Kerry calling to commiserate but also to sort of egg me on and for me to egg him on, to keep fighting for what we knew to be right. So, you know, it's courage, power, and persistence, because you need courage, as I think President Obama had, to try in the first instance. It takes an understanding of power, which is necessary and can be used for good if you know what you're doing and what you're up to and why you're doing it. And persistence, which is absolutely a necessity. There are other chapters in the book about failure, letting go, about team building, and even about success, but all of those are qualities that are critical and anything one tries to do in life.

Adam: How do you deal with criticism and how do you deal with failure? And all leaders experienced both. But when you're the chief negotiator of a nuclear deal, the stakes are higher, the criticism is louder, much louder. And in your case, you had to watch something that you worked so hard for, at least partially undone. How can we maintain our mental health and push forward with a winning mindset and how have you?

Ambassador Sherman: Well, I think that it does go back to having done this with a team and we all stay in touch with each other and, you know, sort of cheer each other on and that's important. It's also you know, we are in a very difficult time in the country and in the world in this time of Coronavirus. And, you know, I have no idea how Harvard University is going to operate in the Fall. And I finished teaching this semester online on Zoom as did most other colleges and universities, and I feel for students because some of these students started their undergraduate careers with 9/11 and now they're in graduate school during the Coronavirus. And I have a responsibility. I'm a leader in this instance. So I have to keep it going. Even on days I have felt depressed or disappointed. I think it's important to be honest that you have down days too. But together, we can move forward. I came of political age during the Vietnam War. It was a horrible time in this country. We were very divided on issues and marched every week in the streets. Some people are now marching online. On a daily basis. We had Kent State, which we also had the anniversary of a few days ago, where students were killed for their protests. We had a tremendous amount of violence in this country, bombings of Townhouses in New York by the Weathermen. We had a terrible division. But it was also a time of the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act, the Women's Movement, the end of the Vietnam War. And although we face challenges in the years ahead, including Watergate, it also spurned a whole community of activists that continue to be activists and believed in public purpose and public leadership for the rest of our lives. So something very profound and important came out of that very terrible time. The women's movement was born during that time. We are in another really, really hard time and I was talking with a group of students this morning, on Zoom, of course, as they're looking at the summer job market and their full time job market and power. How can they be activists when they can't go in the streets or they can't meet? And we talked about how important it was to use the techniques and the tools that we have and there's some good in that, you know? There was a meeting that I had stopped going to because I could never get back to Washington to go to it. Now I can join online in ways I couldn't, because I didn't have the time to travel down to Washington and then to travel back in time for a class I needed to teach. So let's figure out what's good about the moment we're in and use it to create the change we want.

Adam: I love that; turn any and every negative into a positive to the extent possible. That's a great example of it.

Ambassador Sherman:  Yes, to the fullest extent possible, but also be honest that it's hard. Yeah, and there are days when we all wish it were otherwise and we're tired of being in our houses and we're tired of being locked down. I understand the impulse. Every person who wants to go to the beach, so do I. You know, it's a hard time.

Adam: I agree with you and sometimes you just need to take a break and watch some Netflix. We need what we need. And I'm with you 100%. On that, what can you share with listeners on the topic of negotiations? You're as much of an expert on this topic as anyone. Can you provide your best advice for listeners?

Ambassador Sherman: Well, what comes to mind besides having a spectacular team, because I certainly am not a nuclear physicist, so I needed some of them on my team to understand what you don't know and make sure you have some people who can help you deal. When we started, I asked the team to write what they hoped would be the ideal agreement knowing we wouldn't get a perfect agreement, because it was a negotiation. You had to understand that everybody at the table had some interests that had to be addressed in some way, as long as you fulfilled the major requirement, which was to ensure that Iran not get a nuclear weapon, and fulfill the metrics that President Obama had set out for how you'd measure that, but beyond that, to really understand that you had to think about everybody's interests at the table, including a runs. And so I asked the team to write that agreement. And then everybody on the team, no matter what their job, sat in a secure conference room and wrote 100 pages for two days. And we went over it line by line. So everybody understood what we were trying to do. And if something didn't make sense, the people who didn't understand how to explain it to the rest of us- so I think that's critical for any negotiation, to know what you don't know, to have the people there who do know it to understand each other's expertise, and how to mobilize that expertise to get to the outcome you want and to define success at the beginning and what the metrics are going to be for that success. I think the other important thing to know in a negotiation is no negotiation, no outcome will be doable unless everybody leaves the table with some power. It cannot be zero sum. If Iran had been left with absolutely no power, they wouldn't have been able to sell it inside of Iran, they wouldn't have been able to continue to meet the terms of it, even after the United States of America withdrew, we had to leave some power with the Russians and the Chinese and the French and the British and the European Union and Germany, so that they could sell it politically in their countries and sustain it even when the United States of America pulled out. Now it's hanging on by a thread, a very slender thread. And I'm not very optimistic. But nonetheless, it held together for as long as it did, because everybody not only shared the same objective, which was to ensure Iran not have a nuclear weapon, but also that everybody's interests got taken into account in some way that allowed them to sustain it within their own politics

Adam: To the extent so you're not violating any confidentiality agreements, can you share a notable mistake that you made during high stakes negotiation and how you were able to overcome it?

Ambassador Sherman: Sure. Well, one I've talked about publicly before is that I was testifying in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee- I testify quite a bit, and we also had literally hundreds of secure briefings with members of Congress. And I was asked a question about Iranian deception. And in response, I said deception is in their DNA. I was pilloried by Iranian Americans who rightly took offense by that statement. I was pilloried. In Iran, they put up posters that said Death to Wendy Sherman and took to the streets saying Death to Wendy Sherman. They did cartoons of me as a fox up in a tree. So one of the people on my team got t-shirts printed with Team Silver Fox, but it was really a bad moment, you know, scared my family quite a bit, obviously. And I knew it was a mistake, a bad one. And so I asked Persian Voa, Voice of America, to do an interview with me and asked me about it. And I used it as an opportunity to say that I've regretted what I had said, that one should never paint people in that kind of way. And we got past that moment and things settled down. To this day, though I have, when I do public speaking often, and Iranian Americans ask me about that, and I need to let them know again, that I regret having said what I did. There were other moments during the negotiation where things got very tough and very sticky. And you have to hold to yourself not to blow up unless it's necessary, and sometimes it's necessary. There was a time when we had a very tough bilateral meeting in Geneva. Secretary Kerry was there. He, in fact, had stayed in London because I told him we weren't moving far enough. He came anyway, we had a meeting. It was very, very difficult. He got so angry, he hit a pencil. It flew across the table and hit my counterpart in the face. Oh, he obviously apologized for that. We got past it. But you know, things happen that are very tough. And obviously there are some details that someday will be revealed in history, but now it's probably not the moment. Maybe our next interview.

Adam: Maybe you've risen to the top of the world of diplomacy. You've now been dedicating your life toward it, educating the next generation of leaders. What can anyone do to become a better leader and what can anyone do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Ambassador Sherman: I think the most important thing for a leader is to have is humility, to know what you don't know, and to understand what you can control and what you can't. It's why one of the chapters in the book is about letting go. And I learned this very personally being, you know, someone who has taken on some high powered jobs in my life. My brother, when he was 25, took his life and here I was a social worker with all these skills, and I couldn't help my brother. And it was very painful and difficult. It is to this day. But it also taught me that I cannot control everything, which my husband reminds me from time to time in a helpful way, and you have to Know when to let go. At the end of the Clinton administration, we thought we were close to a deal with North Korea on a moratorium on missile testing. But we ran out of time. It was so hard because I thought we really could get there. And then everything turns sour and now we have in North Korea with nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them. But having humility and knowing there's only so much you can control in life is critical. You know, I always go back to Warren Bennis who wrote on becoming a leader about having a guiding vision, passion, hope, inspiration, integrity, self knowledge, candor, maturity, building trust, or at least respect, having curiosity and daring and wonder and not worrying about failure. I think all of those qualities, which were fundamental to Dennis's writing, are critical and core.

Adam: Ambassador Sherman, thank you for joining us, and thank you for all the great advice.

Ambassador Sherman: Thank you. Great to be with you, Adam.