Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: New York Times Bestselling Author Amy Jo Martin

I recently interviewed Amy Jo Martin on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a branding expert. The New York Times best selling author, Amy Jo Martin is the founder of one of the first social media companies of all time, Digital Royalty, where she managed the social media strategy for major celebrities, athletes, and companies from Shaquille O'Neal to the Chicago White Sox, Cleveland Indians, and the UFC. Amy Jo, thank you for joining us.

Amy Jo: Thank you for having me. And I'm looking forward to this conversation with you.

Adam: I'm looking forward to it too. You were born in Green River, Wyoming, a town of 12,000 people. And at age 30, you're starting your own company with Shaq as your first client. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What were the key experiences early on that led you to the worlds of social media and entrepreneurship, and that ultimately helped shape your success?

Amy Jo: Sure, we're taking it back to Wyoming that I love it. I actually grew up in a trailer park and we moved pretty often. And I really think there was a, you know, beauty about being able to explore and just wide open spaces growing up. And I was super curious, and had a bit of an addiction to change because we did move often. So I think, you know, if anyone who's listening moved around when they were younger, I think they could relate that you become adaptable. You just kind of need to learn how to read a room and, you know, kind of get brave and be willing to explore.

Adam: Can you talk a little bit more about that upbringing? Not too many of us have spent much time if at all, I've never been- a confession to any listeners we may have in Green River, Wyoming. I've never been. What was that experience like growing up with a unique upbringing? How did that shape you? What were the best lessons learned from that experience?

Amy Jo: That's a great question. And it's funny, because I don't get that question too often in terms of just the early days, and I do think they're so important for everyone. Wyoming in general, and just small town living, I think is pretty conducive to entrepreneurship. And, you know, I didn't even have that as a thought in my mind. Growing up, I never imagined I'd be an entrepreneur. But looking back, I can kind of reverse engineer and see some signs. But these towns- there were a few towns that were a lot smaller than that. So it was, in a way a wild, wild west, people could kind of get away with anything. And there weren't a ton of rules. So you know, I actually ended up writing a book called Renegades Write the Rules. And it's like an opportunity to really experiment. And, you know, I have legitimate cowboys in my family who have earned their belt buckles. And so that was kind of another element to the Wild, Wild West. But, but really, I think, you know, I had never been to a big city until really, I went to college, and learned how to drive on a freeway, which was kind of interesting. But I'd say I think it really Fosters experimenting, you know, you can run away every day and end up getting hungry at dinner time and come back and do it again the next day, and no one really minds because it just feels pretty safe to experiment.

Adam: I love it. And a theme that we've explored on previous episodes of this podcast, is the importance of getting out of your comfort zone. And clearly the experience that you had growing up was so conducive to that. And I wanted to know what advice you have for listeners on how to push their comfort zones. What can we do to get there?

Amy Jo: It is such an important practice. I think it's a true daily practice. I always say get comfortable with being uncomfortable and everyone I've ever worked with who has been progressive innovative leader has had this almost fascination with putting themselves in uncomfortable situations. And I would say, you know, it's like a muscle that you build. So even if you start small, you can do something that makes you a little uncomfortable every day. And then your threshold just starts to increase, and then you can one up it and win a bet, and it's, you know, it's one of those things where very few things in life are irreversible, right? And there's so much fear that we have about certain things and scenarios. And I have these renegade rules that I live my life by, and one of which is play things out in your mind and identify the worst case scenario because when we do that, we immediately put logic in the driver's seat. And so you don't just start with the worst case scenario. But first, you just ask yourself what if this experiment doesn't work? Then answer the question and then say that and answer it again, and even write it down. And then what? Then what? All your way through to the worst case scenario. And when we do that we learn, you know, it's going to take a little longer than I would have thought to arrive. Worst case scenario, it might even be comical, in where my mind allows me to go if I don't add, you know, logic into that scary, fearful scenario. So it's a fun thing to do, I think, because nine times out of 10, it's safe enough to try.

Adam: I think that's great advice for listeners. And as I'm sitting here, I'm thinking about something that would make me really uncomfortable. And that would be playing basketball against your first client, Shaquille O'Neal, who I had the privilege to watch a lot growing up as a huge Lakers fan. And Shaq was dominant, winning championship after championship with the Lakers. And I wanted to ask you, if you could talk about your experience working with Shaq, but specifically how you were able to cultivate that relationship with Shaq, and more broadly, what advice you have for listeners on how to cultivate winning relationships.

Amy Jo: So with Shaquille, I think he really resembles someone who has always somewhat, you know, colored outside the lines, but maybe hasn't fully crossed the line. Maybe a couple times he has but you know, he was someone that was again, willing to try something new that hadn't been done before. So, you know, kindred spirits find each other, I think, when they are just built that way. And so building the relationship with Shaquille- I was working in the NBA for the Phoenix Suns, and had really started to discover more and more of what an opportunity social media provided not only to individuals, but also to brands and marketing partners. And so I just started to kind of realize there was this magic in a bottle, if we could align the personality and the human, you know, behind the brand, behind the sports property. So the humans, meaning the talent, the players, if we could align them closer to the marketing partners, you know, we could probably monetize it. And it took some experimenting first to figure out how it worked and how we could integrate those brands. And he was willing to try, you know, my weird experiments and my kind of bizarre suggestions and concepts like random acts of sharpness, where we literally would play kind of tag with people in the, in the physical world, based off of what was happening virtually and where we told them to go. And there's just a genuine curiosity, I'd say that we had that in common. Shaquille has zero ability to kind of fake anything. So, you know, I think that he sends the genuine desire to just kind of explore, and when we can do that with people in terms of building relationships, you know, finding that human common ground- it sounds so obvious, I think, you know, sometimes cliche, but it's important, you know? Even if it's, you know, you're hopping on a call with someone or a Zoom, and you've never met them, and it's a business conversation. It's worth taking a couple minutes to figure out, where did they go to school? Maybe you know, someone that did too, Where are they from? Maybe you've been to that city, or what kind of dog they have, because it can just change the entire dynamic of the conversation. So, of course, you want to do your research and homework from a business standpoint, but I think it's even more important to do your human homework. You know, to find ways to connect, because connections convert every time true connections will convert.

Adam: So much great advice. And one of the things that you've described in describing Shaquille O'Neal is a deep authenticity. And when we talk about what makes people great, particularly when we talk about the core elements of successful leaders, there's very little that is more important than the importance of knowing who you are, being comfortable in your own skin, and having a sense of self and clearly, in your work with Shaq, you identified that Shaquille O'Neal is someone who is not going to fake it, who knows who he is, and is comfortable in his own skin. And I wanted to know if you could elaborate on that. Given the experience that you've had not only working with Shaq, but with so many great leaders, I know you were extremely close to the late Tony Shea, what do you believe are the key characteristics of a great leader? And how can anyone become a better leader?

Amy Jo: Yeah, I'd say one common theme among the leaders I've worked with and really visionaries I'd say they treat people the same regardless of rank. And so, you know, Shaquille would remember the security guards name, just as quickly as he would remember, you know, some other person that you may not consider to be at the same rank, per se, because they just have an equal playing field. And same with even say, Dwayne Johnson, they have an ability to make people feel seen and feel special. And that's really what we're all looking for. So that's a charisma that's not that hard to create and learn. And so that's one of the really common things. And then the other thing is, I mean, these are experts at going from idea to action. And navigating that delta between a dream and actually doing is tangible. So that's one of the things I teach with the renegade accelerator with female leaders, executives, you know, founders is how we can really TEDx not only our thinking, but TEDx, our execution, like taking action, greenlighting ideas, and then getting that feedback loop going.

Adam: I think feedback is a topic that everyone understands is important, but doesn't get talked about enough. And I wanted to know if you could share with listeners what advice you have on the topic of feedback? How can leaders give effective feedback? And how can those receiving feedback, most effectively receive it?

Amy Jo: Feedback is one of my favorite topics. And usually, most solutions are found right with feedback, whatever problem you're going through, even if it's yourself, you know, just being self aware, and giving yourself that feedback. But feedback, let's go back to Tony Shea for a moment. You know, one of the things he always told me was the early days of Zappos, and how he just wanted to get the thing up and running so he could get people using it in beta, and then get that feedback loop going. And he talked about how terribly clunky and ugly the interface was. And it was just good enough, you know, to be usable. And then gave me that advice. When I started my first company, we were building out a platform, and he's like, just get it going. I think what's cool about feedback is that the answers are really on the street, right? They rarely are in a boardroom or on a whiteboard. And when we really see advancement in products and services it’s because it's come full circle, usually from the actual user. And so, I mean, now we have access to high volume, instant feedback with social media. And historically, we've had to go do formal research that could be very expensive, take a long time to get the data back. And so we all have access to feedback. And as an investor what I really appreciate is when founders will ask for feedback because sometimes it feels like a one way street where founders are wanting to tell investors the great story that's painting a picture a certain way. But when they're really able to leverage the expertise of the people who have bought into them that want them to win, because then they'll win. That's when I think they actually are able to see a more leveraged relationship in a positive way. So I think feedback really requires transparency, and truthfulness. But you know, the ego can definitely get in the way of people even feeling comfortable to provide feedback.

Adam: Something that I tell listeners all the time is that great leaders are great listeners. And I had a guest on this podcast, the CEO of REMAX who spent a good chunk of the podcast sharing his best advice on the topic of leadership. And it was a great conversation. And one of the things that he told me is that one of the most important things a leader can do is ask great questions. And I told him that I hope I asked you good questions, because now I'm feeling a little bit self conscious. But I think that that's such good advice for anyone, because it's important to understand that no matter what seat you have at the table, you're a participant, you're one party, it doesn't matter whether you're the CEO or whether you're an intern, you have a voice, but so does everyone else in the room. And it's important for you not to use your voice to drown out others, but to use your voice as an opportunity to accentuate others. And there's no better way to do that than by asking great questions by asking probing questions. And by getting out of the way and listening. And so much of the advice you shared, is really along those lines.

Amy Jo: I agree. I agree that great leaders are also great listeners. And it takes me just to mention Tony Shea, and he would never give me advice. He would only ask questions, you know, he never gave me answers. And so the advice came through the form of questions that then I would arrive that usually an A-ha, based on this specific question. So I couldn't agree more. And I think, just to add to that, if you were to take it one step further, this has been on my mind a lot lately. A great listener, who wants to apply and activate that knowledge should also be taking notes, in many situations. And it is extremely difficult for us to absorb the amount of information that we're inundated by, especially with technology. And so it's amazing how just taking notes can give you a huge edge and so I always think about Richard Branson- he's a note taker, you know, and then he activates his notes. They don't just sit somewhere in a notebook. But there have been so many times where you rock up to a meeting and someone just listens and doesn't write a thing down and you can guarantee a large percentage of that information is just a flash in the pan. Yeah, that's just going to kind of never really make it to a really useful place.

Adam: That’s a great tip. There's only so much that we can absorb and that we can truly remember. And it's important to take things in but also take things down. I also want to go back to the point you made about not telling someone what to do, but guiding them to that end point and the name of the show's 30 Minute Mentors. Mentorship is a key theme of this podcast, but really a key theme of life. And something that I think is important for anyone to understand is that when you're thinking about what it takes to be a great mentor. It's not about telling the person who you're mentoring. This is what you should do. Rather it's about giving the person who you're mentoring, a framework on how to get there. And if you tell someone what to do, you're not really helping them. You're not really allowing them to grow, you're not really allowing them to become their best selves. But if you give someone the tools and the wherewithal to come to the best decision possible, you've done your job, you've succeeded as a mentor, you've succeeded as a leader.

Amy Jo: It's true, isn't it? Yeah. I don't have any mentors that really give advice. It's always through the form of questions. And then you hear those questions in your mind when they're not around. And I think that's what's so cool. It keeps giving, and you're basically training yourself to mentor yourself over time,

Adam: I'm gonna ask you a question that I know anyone listening to this episode has. Given your expertise in social media, and that is, what should everyone understand about social media? What are your best tips for anyone listening, on how to build their social media presence, whether it's building the presence for their company, or building the presence for their own personal brand?

Amy Jo: There are so many, so many things that are popping into mind. Let me just kind of throw out what's surfacing. First, the first suggestion to consider is the idea that you don't brand yourself, you are yourself. And that creates a brand. So there's this common, you know, misstep, where people want to show up and create something new, create some new brand, facade, whatever. And that's not really how it works. So that's one thing to think about. Another thing is, it's constantly changing. So what worked a month ago may not work today. So, you know, the consistent elements in terms of strategy, in my opinion, are the fact that humans connect with humans, not logos. So if you can connect again at that human level, and really diversify the type of value that you can bring, then you will be able to reach and resonate with more like minded, like hearted people, not necessarily from a demographic standpoint, but maybe more of an attitudinal standpoint. And then a third, gosh, this is a lesson we keep learning over and over, especially as marketers, and as business owners. And that is, we have to remember that this space is not ours, in terms of the users, right? We don't own the real estate, on Instagram, those are not our followers, per se, or our footprint. We're not even renting it, because we aren't paying for it unless you can advertise. But you really have very little say in what the platform's are going to do next, and what happens with their algorithm and their economic models and what's happening on Wall Street, where stockholders are starting to dictate, you know, more and more of the decision in terms of usability and just revenue. So we have to just kind of keep in mind that this can all changed pretty quickly. So it's important to build that bridge with your connections, your customers, clients, followers, fans, whatever you want to call them, it's important to build it directly as well. And make sure that you are investing in your own real estate. And that means, you know, actually offering value on your website that's exclusive, offering value through email in the real world, you know, at events and building a connection that's going to transcend an algorithm.

Adam: So interesting. And I love that. So much of it centers around understanding, branding, and understanding that the first step of branding is authenticity. Going back to what we talked about in the beginning of the podcast, not trying to create a fake brand, but building a brand that is you. And I wanted to know if you could dive a little bit deeper into your playbook on branding. How do you build a brand? What is your best advice for listeners on branding and personal brand?

Amy Jo: Alright, so if we go back to the foundation of the fact that you don't brand yourself you are yourself, right? Let's just even take a recent graduate of the Renegade Accelerator program. She's a top fertility doctor. She is also a minivan driving mom, she's an athlete, you know, she's all of these things. And if she shows up as just one online, then she's going to limit the amount of people that she is able to connect with, right, because we're all multifaceted. So I like to think of your value as almost like a portfolio, just like an investment portfolio, we want to keep it diversified and balanced. And so thinking about the type of value you can offer to people who connect with you online. And that could come in the form of inspiration, you know, education, entertainment, exclusive content, advocacy. And then you think about a portfolio of contents, you know, just different things that not only you're interested in, but you've maybe thought leadership in. And then you start to mix and match and make sure you're offering a really nice spectrum, kind of a mosaic of content and value. And then it becomes a testing game. So like, with Dr. Meredith, let's say, she started sharing some of the things that she's very passionate about, and that's empowering women, especially young girls. and showing them you know, you can be a doctor, you can be a mom, at the same time, can also be an athlete, and she just started playing around as she's going through the program and taking the curriculum, she started experimenting on TikTok. And so she's, you know, in her 40;s, not your usual suspect for TikTok to be a fertility doctor that drives a minivan. And, sure enough, she gained a ton of traction and started resonating, you know, with the audience that she wanted to connect with. And it's become, you know, a great vehicle for her to speak to young women, and really give them a bit of a playbook and show them because seeing is believing that you can be many things. Anyway, that's just one example. But I think that's really important to not only map out what is your value, and think about value exchange, right. But also experiment, and keep it diversified.

Adam: A lot of what you talked about is gonna fall into the theme that I want to ask you about in our remaining time. And that's a topic that you're extremely passionate about, which is innovation. And I wanted to ask you, in your experience, what are the keys to building a culture that fuels innovation? And how can anyone best innovate in their personal and professional lives?

Amy Jo: You nailed it, when you mentioned the word, culture. I think that that's, you know, a common misunderstanding, that innovation resides in one area, or department or, you know, is just up to a certain group of people. And that's obviously not the case. A lot of times, I think we think of technology as innovation, you know, AI and 5g and different things that have been enabled because of technology. But really, technology is just a vehicle for innovation. So I like to think of innovation as starting to mix and match things that haven't been before, in any which way, right? So that doesn't necessarily always require technology. And there was a great article that I just read in Harvard Business Review, and it was talking about the difference between incremental change over time, and then kind of moonshot ideas and 10 axing or completely transforming something. And it's becoming more and more rare that we really approach and look at things from an innovative angle versus let's just make it a little better and a little better, and kind of peg that label as innovation. So a lot of what we talked about so far, getting uncomfortable. I know I have a Renegade Accelerator graduate, she's the head of digital at the Cleveland Cavaliers and at the Cavs they have a yes before no rule, which I love. So before you know if someone presents a new idea or has some thought starter, they have to explore yes before no. And I refer to something similar called innovation allergies. And those are the responses that we're so used to hearing, whether they're from ourselves kind of self talk or it's a colleague or team member, or a boss or even a family. Remember, but innovation allergies come in the form of, oh, we haven't done that before, we've never tried that, we can't do that, or that'll never get approved, or we don't have the budget for that. Or we tried that once and it didn't work. And so those are literally innovation allergies, and they become contagious. So yeah, looking at the whole culture, not just let's put innovation in a compartment, I think, is so important. And so those are just some thoughts for starters. But it's fun to think of old school innovation to get inspired because sometimes we think, well, that's not for me, I know nothing about machine learning. But that's just an enabler. Really.

Adam: Amy Jo, thank you so much for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of 30 Minute Mentors.

Amy Jo: Thank you for having me, Adam. I appreciate it. I appreciate all the thoughtful questions as well.

Adam: And I appreciate all the thoughtful answers.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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