I recently interviewed Angie Hicks on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today disrupted the home improvement industry. Angie Hicks is the co-founder of and the namesake behind Angie's List, now known as Angie, where she currently serves as Chief Customer Officer. Angie, thank you for joining us.

Angie: Thanks for having me on the show.

Adam: You grew up in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

Angie: You've done your homework. Have you been to Fort Wayne?

Adam: I have not. Should I go?

Angie: It's a nice small city in the Midwest. So it's a good one. It's a good one.

Adam: So, full disclosure to you and full disclosure to listeners, I'm allergic to weather below 73 degrees. So I don't know how to survive over there.

Angie: Aren't we all? Like it's layering. It's layering season right now here in the Midwest.

Adam: That's what happens when you grew up in L.A. Anything below 73 degrees and you're putting on a winter jacket. 

Angie: Exactly.

Adam: You were the first person in your family to go to college. You went to college at DePaul University in Indiana and not too far from your hometown. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What early experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shape the trajectory of your success?

Angie: Yeah, happy to see. So I grew up in Fort Wayne and my dad was a UPS driver. My mom was a bank teller. People that worked at their companies for a long time, were really dedicated. I think that work ethic has played through in my experience as well decided that probably a small school was best for me, I'm actually very quiet and shy by nature. And so I thought I might get lost. I went down and visited IU but figured I might get lost there. So I went to the PA and was a part of the Management Fellows Program, which was their Honors Business Program. And while I had dreamed of being an actuary, and was a math major to start, like shifted over to economics and did an internship as a part of the major Fellows Program and just started to get much more interested in business through that process.

Adam: What were the key lessons that really shifted your perspective, changed the way you think, and helped get you to where you are? 

Angie: One of the big things for me, it was something that I grew up and was part of the family was you do what you say you're gonna do, and you work hard. And that is an element that played well in my career. So for example, as a part of my manager Fellows Program, I did an internship and that was a first chance to show that work hard can-do attitude, and a professional experience. And it really set me up for new experiences. So I was actually working for the man that would become my co-founder. And so that experience while I was building up a database and doing research and things like that, it actually demonstrated just my ability to get stuff done. And I think that is really important. Over the years, I never really considered myself an entrepreneur because I defined an entrepreneur as a big idea person, risk taker, and charismatic, and I didn't feel like I fit those. But when it comes down to it, perseverance is probably one of the biggest things needed if you're going to be an entrepreneur. And that was something I had over-indexed on perseverance. And I think that's important. If you think about it, most new businesses do fail in the first year. And there are many times that you question why am I doing this? Is this gonna work out? And it's hard? Like, I'll get questions from people that'll say, hey, would you start another business? I know there are tons of people that are serial entrepreneurs and just love that. For me, I'm like, I love that but I love my career and developing company so much to go back and do that over again. At this point in my life, I probably wouldn't.

Adam: Do pros and cons to both sides. You mentioned that internship, that pivotal internship that you took while you were a student at the PA. And it was when you graduated, the person who you work for, asked you to join him. He had relocated to Columbus, Ohio, and had an idea for a business. That idea was the genesis for what became Angie's List, you thought the idea was risky. You weren't in love with the idea. You were planning on working in management consulting. How did you decide to take that risk ultimately? Go down the path of entrepreneurship? And what advice do you have for anyone listening on how to decide what path to go down when they're trying to figure out what to pursue, regardless of where they are in their lives and in their careers?

Angie: That's a great question. It was not an easy decision for me. And I have to admit, I thought about it for a long time. And finally talked to a number of people about it, what should I do? And my experience with my family and friends, I was 22. I didn't have a lot of family, then professional careers. It was just like this was all foreign. But my favorite conversation was when I had it with my grandfather. My grandfather was a very conservative guy who lived during the Depression. He would pay cash for everything with well, beneath his means, didn't have a lot of money at all. He worked in a factory his entire career but was very conservative that way. And he looked at me, he was like, what do you have to lose? What's the difference between being 22 and without a job and being 23 without a job? Absolutely nothing. So I think there was a bit of ignorance is bliss, you're like, you're 22, I wasn't balancing a family. There were so many things, that I lacked in knowledge and expertise I made up for in sheer hard work and singular focus. Because I didn't have to balance a bunch of stuff. And that was valuable. And I didn't know what I didn't know. From an advice perspective, I see this a lot. Over the course of my career, I've worked with a lot of young people. And I think all too often people are fixated on their plans. I want to be here in X years, I want to do this, I want to, I want to work for two years, and I want to go to business school that I want to do this. Sometimes we get so focused on the plan, we forget to smell the roses along the way. And we don't even recognize opportunities that can really transform what you were doing. It was very easy for me to go on and be a business consultant. That was an easy path. But I was like I had an opportunity. That is what I had studied, all those kinds of things, but I wouldn't hadn't tried the door of entrepreneurship. And so I encourage you to like think about that, whether it's a career opportunity, whether it's a job inside of the company that you're in, don't be afraid to trust people who believe in you. This suggests things because they might suggest things that you would never dream of. I remember we had started a fellowship in Indianapolis called the Aura Fellowship. And in one of the very first classes, was a program, we put smart, talented Hoosiers to work in Indiana technology companies. And there was one young man that had interned for me. And then he went through the fellowship interview process. And I was super excited because he got matched to a company. And so I called him to tell him like your match. This is great. And it's what it was one of those was to get matched to one company. There's not like, oh, I'd like to do the fellowship. But can I have company B instead? It was like you're going to this company. And he was just like the company's technology was around banking. He's like, I know nothing about banking. I don't think I can do this. I think I should turn it down. I was like, no, no, they know more about what they see in you than you do here at 22 years old. You just need to go. They believe in you just go. And he went off and did great things there. And to this day, we chuckle about that conversation.

Adam: I love that. I love that story. I love the advice you shared. I love the advice that your grandfather shared with you, which really comes down to whether can you afford to take the risk. Sometimes the question is, can you afford not to take the risk? And is it really a risk? Is it a risk to wait a year to take that safe secure job? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. 21 versus 22, 22 versus 23, 28 versus 29, 40 versus 41. I don't know, it's a personal decision for everyone. But you really need to ask yourself how big of a risk really is this. Don't get so caught up in your plan that you miss what's right in front of you, which could be a great opportunity, which could be an opportunity that wasn't in your original game plan, but could be better than what was in your game plan.

Angie: If someone had said you're gonna start a business someday, I would have never said that. I would have never. I was like, no, you're crazy.

Adam: Yeah, keep your eyes open and listen. I love that. Listen.

Angie: Because there are a lot of things you don't know.

Adam: That's right. There's a lot more that we don't know than what we do know. And the best leaders, the most successful leaders, and the most successful entrepreneurs, know what they know, know what they don't know, and aren't afraid to admit it.

Angie: And surround them with people that complement what they don't know.

Adam: Absolutely. Angie, to that end, what do you believe are the key characteristics of a great leader? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Angie: I'm an introvert. I'm pretty quiet. So something I have spent a lot of time purposely thinking about how I wanted to be a leader. Because in the early days, I was a horrible leader. I was horrible. I was too young. I was so many things. But what I learned over time was I am a good in-the-trenches and lead-together kind of person. I would much rather be a teacher, coach, or player-coach persona. I'm not going to be the one that gets up in front of a large crowd and rallies the troops and gets people super excited. I am much more of an everyday, ever-present leader. I think it's important that you develop trust with your team like I have a rule with any team I manage. I was like, I prefer when you take action versus asking permission. Let's run. We've got lots on our plate, let's go do things. But just come and tell me when it doesn't go right. Don't try to hide it, don't try to cover it up. Part of that is because I know I'm gonna have to help you. And I like the easier path. So the sooner I know, the easier it is to step in and help. But people learn a ton. By doing that, they get a chance to kind of spread their wings. And that allows people who you surround yourself with people that are good compliments to you, it lets them really show their stuff. And it doesn't stifle that. And it allows the team to be just that much better.

Adam: So much great stuff there. Know thyself,

Angie: You have to know yourself. I like simple things like when I think about how I incentivize people or things like that, I'm always like, don't make up more than three things. Just keep things simple, because I think that that allows for cleaner execution. I think that just comes from watching businesses try to do too many things at once. Because that can become a distraction. And that can cause you to falter. Pick what you're going to do and do it, and give it 110%. And you'll be better off that way. One of the worst things, I do not believe in multitasking. I think it's the worst thing ever. It makes you slower and makes you not do the work as well. I'm just like, and that's in any part of your life. If you're all the way down to multitasking while you're sitting down to dinner, make sure that you're disconnecting and spending being present with the people you're with.

Adam: Yeah, it's hard to do. It's hard not to multitask. But I'm with you on that. There's nothing better than being present, present when you're with others, and present when you're with whatever you're focused on doing with whatever it is that's on your plate. You shared a couple of other great nuggets that are better to ask for forgiveness than for permission. And everyone makes mistakes. So when you do just admit them, own up to them and learn from them and move on.

Angie: Over the years. One of the things that I get asked all the time is what was your biggest mistake? I was like, I don't know. There was one big mistake and like there were, there are mistakes every day. That's, you know, what I think about what's important to me. And what's important, I think kind of another element is I think it's super important to really, like trust, believe in the people you work with. And I will take that over any splashy opportunity. I would tell entrepreneurs this, I would say you know what? I would take in a team with a big idea than a B team with an A idea. Finding people that believe in you and are good partners to you and will invest in you is going to make all the difference in the world and the opportunities that come your way and where you end up.

Adam: Well, Angie's List clearly had an A team. Whether it was an A idea or B idea that's for you to tell me. I think it was an A.

Angie: Well, I kind of joke around sometimes I'm like it wasn't our idea. It was interesting enough, I mean, I guess it's where I come to it. We actually patterned it after a company that had been around for 20-some years. Sometimes people are like what is the idea sometimes the ideas find an interesting idea that hasn't found its legs and give it legs.

Adam: So, can you share with listeners how Angie's List came to life and how Angie's List became the success that it is today?

Angie: So it actually started with my co-founder who we talked about, was renovating a house in Indianapolis. And it was his first house and some of his colleagues or friends or neighbors, I don't know, gave him a subscription to this little business called Unified Neighbors. And it was a newsletter and a call-in service where you could find who is the best pro in town. And so he used that to renovate his house. He's like, well, this makes it for homeowners like this is great. And then he moved to Ohio and bought another fixer-upper, and started looking for the Unified Neighbors of Columbus, and he couldn't find it. He's like, there isn't one. And then I had a bad experience with an HVAC company. And then all of a sudden, it was like, hmm, homecare isn't as fun as I thought it was like, why isn't there a good way to figure out who's good and who's not? And so that's when we decided we're like, this is what there's an opportunity because there wasn't anything anywhere else in the country either. And so we started our own version in Columbus, and we called it Columbus Neighbors. Actually, it wasn't even Angie's List from the beginning.

Adam: It literally became Angie's List, though, because you personally built out that list of initial vendors, 1000 vendors, in the first year, and that served as the foundation for and the proof of concept for Angie's List. You literally went door to door selling face-to-face, and you got rejected most of the time. What lessons did you learn from that experience?

Angie: I often call it my character-building phase. You learn to put things in perspective. What's the worst thing that's gonna happen? They're gonna say no and you're gonna move on. But we also learned that if we were ever going to scale the business, it was probably not on my sales acumen, for sure. But I think you have to learn to not give up. At that time, we were measuring sales in one or two a day. That's hard. That's a long haul that takes a long time to get to, to get to any scale that way. But then once we started to get some traction as far as people liking it, they were like, okay, now I feel comfortable investing in some advertising to potentially build this. And then the phone started ringing and it was easier. But we just had to prove a bit of proof of concept.

Adam: What are your best tips on the topic of sales from that experience?

Angie: Oh, I tend to do things I don't enjoy the earliest in the morning. So don't let yourself put it off. Because if it's something that you're uncomfortable with or not great at, you should do it early. Because it's easy to not get to it. It's a numbers game. Like you got to knock on so many doors, you've got to make so many phone calls, you've got to talk to so many people. And eventually, if the products are right, you'll start to make sales. There is that process. I used to manage our sales team for a period of time when it was small, and one of the sales reps sat behind me and I would listen to his calls. And I could tell when he started to get off his pitch. And I’m like Tom, yeah, to get back on your pitch and all of a sudden, his numbers would come back in line. A lot of things can be broken down into a process. And so I think there's part of it. Don't get me wrong, great salespeople will always be great salespeople and they won't have to follow this regimen that I need to follow. But it makes it possible.

Adam: There is a lot to trusting the process. Trusting yourself but also trusting the process.

Angie: Correct. Like if I need to sell one membership today, I need to talk to five people. And if I want to sell two, I need to talk to 10. And if I stick to it and deliver well then I will probably sell two.

Adam: In there is a lot of rejection.

Angie: A lot of rejection, so much. That's about character building.

Adam: And not everyone deals with rejection that well although, as an entrepreneur, you have to become an expert at managing rejection. What advice do you have on how to deal with rejection? How to manage rejection?

Angie: It's hard. It's hard. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of tears. Don't get me wrong. You have to make sure that you are surrounding yourself with a good support system because it will be hard and you need people to lean on. Being an entrepreneur can be a very lonely trail. Even if there are a couple of you or three of you. I mean, it's still a lonely process. You're working late at night and you're by yourself and you're like, this is why am I doing this? Surrounding yourself with good support is great. And whether that's people that you're working with family, friends, a spouse, you name it, make sure that you don't isolate yourself, because you're going to need that you're going to need people to pick you up.

Adam: I like that, it is a really good tip. What were the keys to growing and scaling Angie's List? You mentioned the importance of scaling the sales team, you obviously did a great job building out the initial version of Angie's List. But to get to that next level, you had to scale the sales team. But beyond that, how did you grow and scale Angie's List? And what do you believe are the keys to growing and scaling any business? 

Angie: Yeah, we basically marched the business out city by city. And we would keep moving forward as long as we were seeing the right economics. And so it worked well because we could open it city by city, it was a calculated risk, it was a calculated amount of investment, we're like we're gonna open another city. And we're able to see whether it's working, versus like, oh, we're national. And all of a sudden, we have to decide whether we can support national and that worked well. But there became a point where our biggest investment was local advertising, local offline advertising, which was the biggest part of opening a city. And after we got to about 25 cities. We finally tipped the scale to where we could buy advertising nationally, which then allowed us to scale a lot faster because the expense that was slowing us down became the catalyst to go open more because we effectively had marketing waste. We had, we had all these cities, we were advertising and that we didn't serve yet. So there was a rush to go open those. So we went from about 25 markets to 100 markets in about 18 months.

Adam: So for anyone listening, whether they're running their own business, whether they're working for an entrepreneurial business or just a business that's interested in growing and scaling, what tips do you have on how they can take their business to the next level?

Angie: I’ll always come back to that A team, making sure that you're hiring the talent that you need when you need them. I find this always so interesting. As a society, we are quick to hire and slow to fire. And sometimes we feel like we are beholden to the person with the bad attitude that is the high performer. Don't fall victim to things like that. So be thoughtful when you hire and make sure you've got a good fit, especially when your organization is small because one person drastically changes the dynamic of the team. And then as you're growing, if you hire right 50% of the time, you're doing really well. So if you think about that, that means you're hiring wrong 50% of the time. If you honestly have a bad fit, then you need to take action. And I've had to make that decision sometimes. And it's a hard decision to make. And I never take it lightly. But a lot of times the person isn't happy. And I think you need to be happy with what you're doing as well. And I want them to be happy. I want people to be happy in what they're working on because they're going to work or they're going to be much more successful. And helping them find that path to making sure that they can find something that they enjoy doing. On a given workday, we spend more of our awake hours working than we do anything else, you know, not with our kids, not with our family, and things like that. So how do you make the most of it? And I'm not saying you have to love what you do every single day. We all have days where like, I don't really feel like doing this today. But all in all, it better tip to the I like what I'm doing because life's short, feel like what you're doing, you should find a path to go find something new to do. Because you'll enjoy it more, you'll be happier, and you'll be a much more successful team member.

Adam: I agree with that completely. What in your experience are the most important characteristics when you're hiring?

Angie: I think there is clear expertise in the area that you need, right? There's always, hey, I need somebody to do this type of task showing success and that task is important. Attitude goes a long way for me and making sure and then also just the willingness to roll up your sleeves and get stuff done. No matter where you are in your career there are always times when you got to pitch in and help, someone that's willing to do that. That's like you know, no job too big or too small. Maybe that's the entrepreneur and me that's like there are times when we're all going to work in the mailroom and that's probably some of my most fun times over the years but making sure that we're not letting things drop.

Adam: I literally cannot agree with you more. I've suffered from the mistake of looking at the wrong quote unquote markers of success. What school did the candidate go to? What were their grades? What are their test scores? In my experience, all that is meaningless compared to what is their attitude. How resourceful are they? Everything you said, when you're an entrepreneur, you don't have a boss. Nobody is telling you to do this, do that. And when you're hiring people, you want that exact same mindset from the people around you. You want them to be self-starters, you want them to be extremely hungry, and you want them to be able to figure things out, without you having to figure it out for them. You're there to help them to guide them and to manage them. But at the end of the day, you need as many people on board who can do the work without your hand-holding. One thing I wanted to ask you about, Angie, is your name, which has become a household name. Your company is now named Angie. There has been a rebrand. What are your best tips on the topics of branding and personal branding?

Angie: Yeah, my business Angie's List in 1996 was an insignificant decision at the time, it was like we were tiny, like, yeah, what does it matter? Who knows where this thing will go? But I think when you think about branding, and you think about even a personal brand, I think it comes down to being authentic. And it's back to some of those same lessons that I was talking about of like, do what you say and say what you're gonna do. I mean, there's just an element of transparency that I think is very important. People look for brands that they feel like they can trust and that they can rely on. And so what are those things that you're going to promise and deliver and make sure that you own those and you don't compromise on those. When you think about where Angie's List was, it was really about, we were the curator, we were the caretaker of all of those consumer reviews. And that information was what helped people decide who they wanted to hire. So first and foremost, we had to be clear and precise about how we took care of them, and how we curated them for the people. And we were really the caretakers and think about where Angie is today, still those fundamental principles of finding some of the best pros that you can find across the country. But not only is it about making sure that we've looked at the quality, but it's also about what else can we do to help make that process easier, and not just give you a name, but maybe we could actually schedule it to start to finish for you, which is part of Angie's business model. They were just clicking by, I need gutter cleaning. I bought it right to Angie. Angie will find the quality pro based on those reviews and send them to my house. And it's just done. So there's just this element of how are you continuing to solve that problem and delivering on that promise. And that's where you will go right by the brand. On the personal brand front, it just evolved over time. But for me, it was super important that it felt comfortable to me. When I agreed to be the spokesperson and be in some of our marketing, again, we were super tiny, it didn't matter. It was a small decision. That became a big decision. But I had to be me, I can't be someone else. I want the person that people saw on TV to be the same person that they ran into at the grocery store. Because that's the only way to do it in an authentic way. It's the only way that it stays connected. So that is part of it. I mean, it just comes down to, even mine was extreme. But every day we each have a personal brand, we each have a thing that we're known for, and how are we living up to that? And how are we delivering on it? So I think about that, and I think about like what are the two or three things I want to be known for. You can't be good at everything. So it's back to measuring in threes. Like I'm gonna be, I'm going to be great at x, y, and z or these are the things people are going to know about me or know me for and that's my thing on those might mature and evolve over time. But those become your things. When I was young, I could get a lot of stuff done. And I didn't give up.

Adam: It's really good advice. And so much of it comes down to what we spoke about earlier, the importance of focus. Something you shared, which I love, authenticity, be yourself, be you. It's what makes a great brand. Another word you use that I want to dive into use the word caretaker and you are in a sense, the caretaker. You're the chief customer officer. What in your experience are the keys to delivering a great customer service experience, and to ultimately building a customer-centric organization?

Angie: It is really embracing your customers and hearing from them and talking to them. I get emails regularly from customers or I get phone calls, it's not out of character for me to just respond and just take care of the problem. Any message I get, whether I'm responding directly myself, or whether I send it through to the person that can ultimately solve it best, I always ask the people on the team to follow back up as to what was the resolution and how we ended up in that spot. Because I feel like for every email I get that there's gonna be a bigger problem somewhere else. It's just that this was the one person that reached out to me about it or one of our other leaders, and so wanting to understand so that we can get to the root of the problem and be able to fix it. Because that's how you constantly improve. I spent a lot of time through the years getting calls from pros who are like, hey, I got a bad review. I'm really mad. So maybe they weren't like, hey, I got a bad review. It might have been a little more animated over the years. But the first thing I always tell them is well, first, go get a cup of coffee. Because no one likes being criticized. So you gotta just take a step back. And think about what's actually being said. If there is something here that you did wrong, own it, fix it, apologize. You're not going to make everybody happy all the time. If you're doing a good job, you're gonna make the vast majority of people happy. And that will come out. So do not let one bad comment be the thing that ruins your day. If you can fix it, fix it, but just move forward. And it thinks come out in the numbers. So I think sometimes we get as a society too connected to one comment, one point-of-view, one issue that you forget about the other 90%.

Adam: And what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Angie: When I think about this, it's like I always start with the fundamentals. So how am I doing the job that I have today? Really well. I have had this conversation a lot with newer employees. It's like you want to be in this role down the road 90% of the way to get there is by doing the job you have really well. Because you know that you might feel like the job you have right now is below you or isn't quite the fit, you can do so much more. Be patient because your ability to do that job really well, it's gonna say a lot about you. And then once you get your job done really well help your team out, and be a good team player. And then the last bit is networking in the organization. And get to know other people and ask good questions. Be curious. Some of the most interesting career paths I've seen are people that were able to move from area to area and get a really broad high-level experience that gives them a chance to jumpstart where they're headed. But let me be clear, do not do number three, until you've done number one and number two. Why? Because we jump straight to number three, you are going to do it exactly wrong. Someone who spends all their time trying to get face time and networking and isn't keeping their ducks in a row is not a good sign.

Adam: Angie, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors. 

Angie: Thanks for having me.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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