Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: NFL Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins

I recently interviewed Brian Dawkins on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is one of the greatest safeties in NFL history. Brian Dawkins is a nine-time Pro Bowler, five-time first-team All-Pro, and a member of the NFL Hall of Fame. Brian, thank you for joining us. 

Brian: No, thank you for having me. 

Adam: I normally don't start the podcast by talking to guests about their height. But, at six-foot, even though you're taller than the average American male, and you're taller than me, you were undersized for an NFL safety, which is why you fell to the last pick of the second round. But you managed to not only make it through 16 NFL seasons, you're one of the best players in the game and one of the best players in the history of the game. What did you do to become such a great player, and to play such a grueling sport at such a high level for so many years? 

Brian: Wow, powerful one. Trying to start strong, there’s developing a specific mindset. And that six-foot didn't happen ‘till like year three. Because I had a late spurt in growth. Even in college, I grew a couple of inches. And then I grew up a little bit more after that. So all my life, I had always been the small individual. And during that time, I developed a mindset that I have to outwork everybody, because they're going to be people that are going to look the part, so to speak, one of our good friends calls it a avatar. LeBron James is the avatar, right? He has the height, the size, the speed; he looks the part. I didn't look the part. So I developed the mindset that I'm going to outwork any and everybody in the room. And I'm going to go full speed. Specific things that my dad taught me, my mom taught me, that are principles that I use to this day in my life, my going after whatever I go after, involves these things. And so using those formulas, I go after things in that way. And that's why I continued to stay growing. Even when I was a three-time Pro Bowl, or even when I was an All Pro for the third time, fourth time, whatever the case may be, I continued to look for opportunities to get better, because in my mind, I had to continue to earn and outwork those around me.

Adam: Brian, I love that. And I think that the advice you shared and your journey to the top of the NFL is applicable to anyone listening. Whether they're playing football, or whether they're doing anything else in life, it's important to look beyond the surface. If you're an NFL scout, you might say, “This person is six foot tall. He's not big enough to be a star in the league”. But when you're hiring, oftentimes you might say someone doesn't look like they should for this role that we're hiring for. That's the complete wrong approach. And if you're someone trying to overcome that obstacle, push through power. It's all about the power of mindset.

Brian: Yes, power of mindset and heart. The thing that I always tell people, as you can measure a lot of things in life, like you just gave for example, my height. I was 188 pounds soaking wet when I first went into the National Football League, so you can measure those things. But the thing is they will never come up with an instrument to be able to measure a person's heart. That will, what they're willing to do, how far they're willing to push themselves to get better, or are they even seeking to get better? So these are the things that you cannot measure with an instrument but you can measure by looking past what you're talking about. Just using your eyes to look at a person but their physical attributes or their resume, what's in that person's heart? Do they give more than is expected? Do you constantly have to tell them to speed up and not slow down or give more? Do you constantly have to encourage them? Like these are things that are obviously wrapped around emotional intelligence. But these are things that need to be taken into consideration when you're talking about hiring anybody like you're talking about.

Adam: Brian, one of your mentors, Emmet Thomas, NFL Hall of Famer who was the Eagles defensive coordinator, when you broke into the NFL, one of his earliest messages to you was to stay true to yourself and become the best version of yourself. How can anyone become the best version of themselves?

Brian: You have to look without using your eyes. See, your eyesight is limited, but your mindset, your mind or your imagination is limitless. So you have to look past what you’re seeing. That what you're seeing right now, or the things that you've learned from your past, and you're continuing to play that program. So you're getting the results that you have in front of you. But in order to be better than that, you have to think differently, you have to go after something that's not necessarily what you're seeing in front of you right now. But you know that there's something inside of you. Maybe there are people around you that have seen something in you. And this is one of the things that I tell people as well. Sometimes you have to believe in somebody else's vision of you. If you want to, you can develop a vision of your own. And that's what I did. That's what Emmet blessed me with. So as he was telling me that, it did not ring for me because I did not see what he saw. I did not see it. I didn't know what the best version of me was. But he saw a better version of me. So I believed in his vision of me. And I went after that. And then when I went after that, I began to see how much success I was having doing it in the light of how he saw me. And then I developed my own vision for myself. And once I developed a vision for myself, I began to chase that doggone thing and go after it with this, oh my goodness, reckless abandon sometimes. Because he saw myself doing things greater than I ever had. And it was exciting, right? It was nerve-wracking at times, but it was exciting. So that's the thing about it. Be excited about the person that you could be. If you have a vision for that person, more than likely, they're somebody that sees something in you that may have been speaking something into your life or saying that you need to be trying this or doing that. And it's not just from a place of making more money either. That's not what I'm talking about. But there's something that you have, that they see, that you don't see yet. And when you believe in their vision, guess what? It becomes your vision. And when you chase that vision, it narrows your focus, it begins to separate some of the things that won't allow you to get to that vision. And this vision I'm talking about is this person that I want to be, right? So that's that thing that happened to me. When that light flipped on and once I began to have that success, incremental successes and celebrating those incremental successes, then almost couldn't help myself but to continue to dream bigger, to go after something bigger, until I found myself playing 16 years in the National Football League. One of the best safeties ever do it from what I've been told, obviously, and then having a Hall of Fame jacket and a ring to go along with that.

Adam: You mentioned vision many times. And so far throughout this conversation, vision is one of the key characteristics of a great leader. You were the undisputed leader of the Eagles. During your time there you were one of the great leaders in the NFL over the course of your career. In your experience, what are the key characteristics of a great leader? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Brian: Wow. The first thing that I will say, for me, when I say leader, I was not necessarily going and saying that, “Yeah, I'm going to be the leader of the team”. That was not necessarily something that I was doing. What I was literally doing in the beginning, was going out and giving everything that I could. I was showing others how to do things by the way that I carried myself, the way that I conducted myself, the way that I practiced, by the way that I studied. I was going out doing things that way first. And then in those instances, if I saw that some of my teammates may be struggling in areas, I would reach out to them and try to help them if I could. So the whole premise is, you have to be displaying a specific level of character in your life in order to have people want to follow you. But I wasn't necessarily seeking people following me. I was just trying to make it on the doggone team first of all, right? I was just trying to elevate and be the starting safety. But in the process of me giving everything that I could, and by continuing to look out for my teammates, then I had other people begin to want to follow the example that I was giving. So that will be the thing. Don't ever ask someone to do something that you haven't already done, or aren't willing to do.

Adam: I love it. Lead by example, others will follow. Don't try to be a leader by forcing your vision, by forcing your thoughts, by forcing your views onto others. Be a leader by being yourself, by being the best version of yourself. And by performing in an exemplary way, others will follow you, others will start asking, “What are you doing? How can I be like you? How could I be like Brian”, in your case, “How can it be like Brian Dawkins?”.

Brian: Yeah. And then because I'm a believer as well, my vertical relationship is the number one attribute of my life. I speak about things in a servant leadership style. So the more that I gained in popularity, the more I gained so-called power and prestige, or whatever, the more I then was blessed to give back to my teammates, to make sure that the light is shining on them as well. For instance, if I make an interception, I was very conscious and aware to give credit to, let's say, Hugh Douglas because he was the one that got the pressure, right? In order for me to have a chance at getting the pick, right? So I was constantly trying to give some of that shine to my teammates to help them in their growth and their pursuit to make more money today, to be honest with you. But the point is, that is a servant leadership that I believe in. That I'm supposed to be serving. The more that I gain, the more I'm supposed to be serving my teammates in one way or another. 

Adam: So important, Brian. You so clearly exude passion. You were one of the most passionate players in the game. And clearly your passion for football and passion for being the absolute best were keys to driving you to the top as a leader. How do you motivate those around you who lacked that same level of passion, who lacked that same level of motivation, who lacked that drive?

Brian: And this is going back to that emotional intelligence, right? This is me, also recognizing when I see a teammate that may not be behaving in a way that they usually do, and this is when I was an executive as well, so this is not just on the football field, when I was an executive with the Eagles, I was doing the exact same thing with my teammates upstairs. So that means that I am going into the office to have a low talk with them to see what's going on, if there's anything that I can do for them. The other thing was to begin to recognize those qualities in others that they may see as just normal that are not, and speak those up. I give them not just credit, but give them some love in those areas that you see them gifted in. I remember there was this, I forget the young lady's name, but she had a very pleasant voice, and I said, “Have you ever tried some voiceovers and stuff like some ads because you have that type of voice?”. And she said, “Oh my goodness, thank you”. I don't know if she ever did it. But again, I was aware that she had a gift that she probably didn't think was a gift, that she probably could have had greater success doing something else with the gift that she had. So talking back to my teammates, if I see something in them that they're having success in, that they may not put up a lot of energy into, I give them credit for that. Or I kind of give them some love in that area. And hopefully, that will help them to recognize that they are gifted in that area. You can't make somebody do something. At some point me pushing you to do something, I'm going to get tired, and you're going to get tired of me pushing you. But what you would like for them to do is for them to see that they do have these gifts, this specific gift, this is the only way that they do the thing that they do is unique. And it begins to pull them forward into the next thing that they're going to do, the next successes they're going to have. So again, having your antenna open as a leader to the qualities in your team and begin to speak into those things. 

Adam: I love that. Not motivating by fear or by force, but by inspiring, by listening, by observing through positivity. Through trying to find what it is that isn't currently being ignited in those who might not be reaching their potential and igniting it for them. Helping them reach their potential by figuring out what it is that they're passionate about that they have yet to discover.

Brian: And again, sometimes it's the things that come easiest to us; only we don't think that that's a big deal. Because it costs us a whole lot. But sometimes those are the things that are the gifts that we need to really refine and allow to bless others around us, to be honest with you. But we don't think a big deal of it. We won't step out into the space to utilize it and to bless others with it. 

Adam: You played for a number of different coaches, not only head coaches but defensive coordinators, positional coaches. Who were the best leaders you played for and what did you learn from them?

Brian: Man, I've had a lot of great coaches in my life. A lot of great coaches going all the way back to high school. It would probably be the top of the line because I learned so much from it on and off the field, not just on the field. But again, it was the one that saw the Hall of Famer me. I did not think he would mention me in the same breath as Ronnie Lott. And I was like, wow, really? So again, that gave me a different vision that I began to chase after. And being the type of man that respects your life in a specific way, doing things the right way, and carrying yourself as a professional the right way. And it was all those things for me. So he really helped me grow as a young man in Philadelphia because of the one-on-one time that we had together in those three years that he was my coach. So because of that, once I got with Jim Johnson when Jim came in, he got a young man that was ready for whatever you threw at him. I knew I could do so many things on that doggone football field. And that's how God used me. So the next, obviously, would be Jim Johnson, because of Jim Johnson thinking outside of the box and using me the way that he used me all over the field. He literally created a different way of the position being played, the safety position, because he used me all over the field. You're seeing a lot of other safeties being used in that same way, going forward now. So those are two Adam, I have others that I can go into going all the way back to high school. And I give him credit for it. I can almost guarantee that he didn't know what he was doing. But because of my mindset not to quit, my father told me that when you start something, you finish it, you give your max effort, and you stay coachable the whole time. And then you give more than is expected of you, right? I had a coach in high school, Coach Humphrey, and this isn't a joke that we ran more than a track team. We ran all the time. It was all, “75 laps, give me 50 laps”. So it was constant. He was a negative reinforcement person. So there's nothing that you can do that could ever satisfy him because he's going to always find a negative thing. And we were constantly running. And because of that, I developed the mindset that if he can’t break me, nobody can. And this was in high school. So when I developed that mindset, no matter what happened at Clemson, no matter what locked him up, like running laps and conditioning and anything like that, there's nothing that you can do to break me because he couldn't break me, because we ran so doggone much. So those are three just off the bat off the top of my head that I can think of.

Adam: You mentioned your book, and in your new book, Blessed by the Best: My Journey to Canton and beyond, you're incredibly open about the darkest moments. The toughest times not only in your career but in your life. Can you take listeners back to a couple of those struggles? And number one, how were you able to overcome them? And number two, what advice do you have for listeners on how they can overcome the toughest challenges that they face in their lives?

Brian: Yes, the toughest challenge that I've been through in my life is my rookie year. I had so much being thrown at me. So much was expected of me being drafted where I was drafted. I was supposed to be the starting safety and all of those expectations that I had, that Ray Rhodes had, they had a lot of expectations of me. So, I came in with all of that pressure, as a newlywed with a son who was colicky so he was crying all the time, we weren't getting a whole lot of sleep at the time. And then the thing that I could control. That, I did not do a good job of. Matter of fact, I did a horrible job of controlling the things that were going on inside of me, because I talked to no one about nothing. And I continue to just stuff things away, stuff emotions away. Anything that has happened in my past, nobody knew about it. I just stuffed it away. Same thing was going on on the field. The pressures of life and all of the things that I was going through, I was just stuffing it away. And you know, anytime that someone gets in that realm, you begin to find ways to help lessen the pain. And one of the things that I did was I began to drink way too much, to kind of mask the pain that I was going through instead of talking to somebody. I finally went to get some help. When Emmett, he and my wife basically tag-teamed me and said, “Are you going to get some help?”. And I did. I had to go talk to someone. And when I talked to that individual it was very uncomfortable at first. But what happened was, I took some medication for a little while. But what that did is that brought me down off my emotions enough that I began to hear from a spiritual level, my vertical relationship with the Lord. I began to hear some of the things I needed to start doing, and some of the things I needed to stop doing. And that was one of the most powerful experiences in my life. And through that understanding of me sharing my emotions, I've heard it said that it's hard for you and almost impossible for you to heal a hurt if it's not heard.

Adam: It's almost impossible for you to heal a hurt that is not heard. So you have to get that out of you. You have to talk about it. 

Brian: Yep. And I have four people in my life that I call my blessed pack that I can call at any given time. And we can talk about these things. If I have things going on, sometimes it's as simple as me saying, “Hey, just pray for your boy, nice prayers”. And I know they're going to pray with me, pray for me. I know they're going to send me some verses and words of encouragement, some verses from the Bible. And if we need to talk, we will talk. And we would pray together afterwards. I know they're not going to judge me. And I know that they're in pursuit of a similar thing. And that's living a righteous life. And that's an empowering formula. But it's an empowering thing to have in your life that I didn't know that I could have in my life. And all of that came after growing through what I went through, learning some of the things I needed to learn. Some other mechanisms like journaling, which I do to this day, meditating, which I do to this day, breathing exercises, which I do to this day, all of these things. I began to learn how I can now mitigate my emotions, allow my emotions to be a part, to make room for my emotions, without allowing the emotions to take over the room. Does that make sense? But I had to grow through what I went through, in order for me to get to where I am. And that's that dark place. And so because of that dark place I was in from off the field, it began to leak on the field, right? Because we know that the things that you have internal hurts about, they don't just stay in the house, they travel with you. So wherever you go, they're right there. So, because of that, I wasn't as successful on the field as I could’ve been. I was living in a lot of fear. So one of the things that I've grabbed for myself, I call them my fighting words. And one of my fighting words that I fight with, is 2nd Timothy 1:7. It says, “For the Lord did not give us a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power, love and a sound mind or self-discipline”. And anytime that I felt fearful, my rookie year, I began to quote that to myself and told myself that this is what I have. I have power, love, and a sound mind. And I'm self-disciplined. And that gets me off of my heels and fear puts me back on my toes so I can anticipate making a play. And then a lot of times making plays, that's the same thing in life. So now you can take that off the field and put it into another space. You'll be more inclined to be your better self if you're not walking around allowing fear to take over the room in your life, by giving yourself your fighting words. What are your fighting words? What do you tell yourself? What do you talk to yourself about? In those moments, you don't feel a specific way. When you don't feel confident, what do you tell yourself? And that is the most important conversation that you will ever have. You talking to you is the most important conversation you'll ever have.

Adam: But I want to highlight a few of the points you made because they're such important points and points that I think everyone listening to this conversation should really internalize is the importance of having a strong support system. You can't do this alone, you can't get better alone. Clearly, having a growth mindset, not being set in your ways, wanting to get better, is integral to being able to get better. But being willing to ask for help, listening, acknowledging that you're going through some kind of pain, you're going through some kind of hurt, and leaning on those around you to help you take that next step, to help you solve whatever challenge you're going through so that you're not going through it by yourself. You mentioned a couple of specific things such as meditation and breathing exercises, but I wanted to dive into one of the things you mentioned, which is overcoming fear. And a lot of players on the football field were afraid of you, they were afraid of you coming in and crushing them in the middle of the field. I'm sure that quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, have nightmares about Brian Dawkins to this day. But whether you're a football player, or whether you're an entrepreneur, or whether you're an executive, or whether you're doing anything else in life, how can anyone overcome the fears, big and small, that they face, in their careers and in their lives?

Brian: First of all, not making fear an enemy. Do not make fear an enemy. What do I mean by that? Fear is obviously something that the Lord blessed us with to keep us safe. Like, if we're out and about, and we see a pack of dogs, this fear is gonna come, right? So now you're clicking to the fight-flight and freeze response, and you run away and get on top of something real tall as quick as possible, right? So, that fear is there. There’s a reason for it, right? The problem is that when everything takes you into that, it is not conducive to you by using and thinking, and using that imagination that we talked about earlier. So one of the things that is very, very powerful and important is breathing; taking that deep breath, taking a real deep inhalation. Because when we get frustrated, when we get angry, when we're fearful, getting that fight and freeze responses, we begin to breathe shallowly. And when we're not thinking as clearly as we could, use imagination in that space. So once again, fear is cool when it is used as it's supposed to be used. But it is when it begins to dictate how we are stepping on the field, it doesn't do anything. Fear is not necessarily something that, I guess you can say is, is something that's conjured up by us. Because it's the way we see the thing. For instance, if me and you both see a snake, you have snakes as pets and I don't, I'm fearful of it. Again, the fear is something that I created, it's mine. You're not afraid of it, I am. So the way that I see fear and the way that I've been blessed to understand it is, fear is focusing and erroneously altering reality. The reality could be something completely different than the story we’re conjuring up. So when I'm conjuring up that I'm going to make this mistake, my mind does not know the difference if I'm in the event or not. So it begins to send these emotions to get into a stress response. And even if it's not the case, it's something I've conjured up. So I have to then take that deep breath. And then once again, I plug in that fighting word, and I quote that. I believe that and I speak that. I say that thing to myself. And I envision myself going and having some type of success, the next play in the office, whatever the case may be. And so when you do that, you now make room for the fear. Fear is okay, it is not an enemy. But I'm not going to allow you, fear, to take over the room. I want to take this deep cleansing breath, and I'm going to replace it with a, you can call it gratitude, and replace it with some gratitude. I'm gonna replace it with something that I'm excited to do or something that I've done that has given me a lot of pleasure in the past. So that's my gratitude box. I dive into that gratitude box and pull out this gratitude. And then I move on. Now I'm talking about this in long-winded form. This happens instantaneously when you become consciously competent about the things that you need to do.  Once that trigger happens or that fear you have, these things that you programmed your body to then do, it becomes something that's unconsciously competent of how to handle these stressful situations. And then, because of that, you no longer fear that situation, because you respond to it in a much better, positive way. Does that make sense? 

Brian: Makes perfect sense. And, Brian, before we go, I want to ask you a couple more questions. Not only were you a great safety, but you were a great mentor throughout your career. Many players who played with you have spoken about the impact that your mentorship had on their lives and on their careers. And you've been open about the role that mentors have played in your life. What are the best tips that you have on the topic of mentorship? How can anyone find a great mentor, be a great mentor, and optimize the mentor-mentee relationship?

Brian: The first thing is, you have to know what it is you're looking for. If you're looking for a mentor, what is it that you're looking for? Well, how are they speaking to you mentally, physically, or spiritually? Like how are they speaking into your life? Those are the three parts of a being: mental, physical, and spiritual. How are they speaking into your life? What part of that do they offer you? And when you do it, when you are getting mentored by someone, a good mentor is not trying to make you them. A good mentor recognizes, again, the best in you and begins to speak into the best in you. Now you will model some of the things that they do. But it becomes your version of the thing that they do. So it becomes uniquely yours and it is no longer theirs. So I guess in answering, I hope I answered all your questions. And what I just said, because it's important, once again, to have that vision to see what they bring. You adapt it, you make it your own, and it becomes yours. And then that mentor, I'm not trying to make you me, I'm trying to make you the best you you can be by recognizing the you that you have that's unique.

Adam: Brian, what can anyone listening do to become more successful, personally and professionally?

Brian: The first thing that I will say is, the first thing that we talked about in the beginning of this is, that vision. If you don't have a vision for yourself, if you don't have a vision for your life, your family, then someone's gonna come up with a vision for you. And I can almost guarantee it's gonna benefit them a whole lot more than it benefits you. So, getting in that place of meditation. I always pray before I do any of these things, and breathing, and then visualizing the success that you want to have. What is it? What are you passionate about? What are you gifted at? Do you know what your gifts are? If you don't ask yourself, begin to ask your friends, take some tests to see what you're gifted at. And then create that vision for yourself. And then you begin to come up with the goals and the plan to reach that vision. And then you celebrate the small victories along the way.

Adam: Brian, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Brian: Thank you for having me, brother. Be blessed.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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