I recently interviewed former Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today was a Fortune 500 CEO and a cabinet member. Carlos Gutierrez was the CEO of Kellogg and was the United States Secretary of Commerce. Secretary Gutierrez is also the co-founder and CEO of the HR software company EmPath. Secretary Gutierrez, thank you for joining us.

Carlos: Pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Adam: Pleasure is mine. You were born in Cuba and fled to the US with your family when you were six. You learned English as a little kid chatting with the bellhops in your Miami Beach Hotel. You went to college in Mexico but left before graduating. A lot of really interesting experiences. Can you share with listeners what key experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

Carlos: Yeah, thank you. That's a great question. They say that if you know what the critical event in your life has been, that event that has really shaped you, that you're lucky and some people don't experience that. I experienced that right before I was seven when we fled Cuba, that is an experience that will be with me forever. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about Cuba and the experience. So what it did for me is just first of all, you can lose everything. And that's just something that probably gave me a healthy level of paranoia. And the other thing is ambition to be able to recover some things that we had in Cuba or to offset what happened in Cuba, but I definitely did not want what I saw when my father and mother left for Cuba and my brother. He went from being the head of this business, an entrepreneur to basically parking cars. So I think that, for me, was a major motivator. I definitely knew I wanted to go into business though.

Adam: And your dad was a central figure in your life, a key mentor.

Carlos: My MBA is my father, not any school. And it was everything about him. It was his ability to lead people. People really flocked to him. They really, they grew close to him just naturally. He's a very good businessman. But his wisdom is what really gave me my schooling. Things like there's no substitute for results. He would give me tips on what was going on in the company and what I should be doing. He knew exactly what was going on, because of our conversations, even though we never got into the details. But to this day, I think he's the coolest guy I've ever known. The smartest guy I've ever known. The wisest man I've ever known. He passed away in 1994. So he barely saw me get to be President of Asia Pacific. But the interesting thing is that he was the only person who would tell me when I first started as a salesperson, that ‘One day you’re gonna be CEO.’ And I say stop saying that, you know, that's crazy. But he always had this belief in me, that just carried me all the way. The first thing about mentors is, there's another person who really impacted my business life. And that's someone who I never met. So a mentor doesn't have to be someone that you meet physically but someone you admire, and someone who you want to learn from, even though they're not speaking to you, you're learning from publications, from things that mentioned him, annual reports. And that was Roberto Goizueta, the CEO of Coke. He was also Cuban-American. And when I was running Kellogg in Mexico, this Fortune magazine had my desk and it had a Cuban-American on the front saying this is the new CEO of Coke. So for me, it was ‘Boy, if he can do it, I can do it.’ And I went to school on him. I studied him. I read every one of his annual reports. He was really a role model to me. But I never did meet him. So the mentors, they don't have to be someone you sit down with and have a conversation with. Someone you can learn from.

Adam: I love that. And it's something that I've heard from so many of the most successful people. I did an interview with a highly successful newscaster who told me that her greatest mentor is Oprah Winfrey, who she's never met. I did an interview with Alan Mirka, the founder of EA and I did an interview with another CEO of a multibillion dollar company. They both said, ‘Steve Jobs is our greatest mentor,’ and never met him. And so much of it comes down to viewing every person has an opportunity to learn and an opportunity to grow. And on the flip side, asking yourself, How can I be that person for others? What can I do to set that example as you have for so many people?

Carlos: Well, the track record obviously is important. But I also think getting out. In his case, he didn't need to work hard at getting out because he was the CEO of Coke. Coke was doing great, the stock price was doing great. And so a lot of coverage. For me, I've tried to get out and speak to people. I've spoken with Hispanic groups ever since I can remember. I rarely say no. I will always go out and give people an idea of careers, what they can be doing, what is possible. To a certain extent, it's a responsibility that went well for me, a lot of things lined up in my favor, the least I can do is help others find their way and their way will be different than mine. But it's their way. And they've had to be totally committed and engaged and have total conviction that they can pull it off.

Adam: You bring up something interesting, which is a key characteristic of the very best leaders. Accessibility, being there, and being available. What do you believe are the key characteristics of the very best leaders? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Carlos: Yeah, that's great. I'll answer that in two ways. One is just a very simple framework that I've heard and I've used before, which is humanity, courage, and leadership. What I like to think about is four pillars to leadership, that go a little bit beyond the classic definition that you would see. One is I think leaders need to be self-aware. But there's so many leaders who just don't get it, they don't get how they're projecting themselves, they don't get how people see them and how they perceive them. Someone who's self-aware will surround himself or herself with people who can do things better than he can or she can. Well, they surround themselves with people who are better than they are at certain things. But in order to do that, you've got to be self-aware. And you have to have the courage to admit what you're good at and what you're not good at. Believing in something bigger than yourself. One of the things about Goizueta is that it was all about Coke. It was all about the institution of Coke. And when he became CEO, he named as his COO his rival for the top job. There are people on the board who thought he should have gotten the CEO job. But what Roberto did is said, ‘This is for the good of the institution and I need this man with me. So I'm gonna promote him. Who cares how I feel, and who cares if I'm insecure about it. That's what's good for the company.’ The other thing is just a recognition that no matter how sharp you are, how technically astute you are, it's going to be people who will take you to the top. So you can get maybe 80% with analytical skills with technical skills. But that remaining 20%, or whatever it is, is always down to people. The thing you mentioned that is interesting is I was reading some of the day that talked about the one trait that all CEOs have. And it's likeability. You'd expect it to be something very power-skill type thing. It's likeability. People like them, which means they can approach them, which means they're not afraid of them, which means they feel free to be able to talk. That is something that is so overlooked. Leaders don't have to act a certain way. They don't have to take themselves too seriously. In fact, it's the ones who make themselves vulnerable, where people say my goodness, this man is a real guy. Self-deprecating jokes, and let people take a shot at you from time to time. People love that. They love that in the leader, but many leaders think that they just can't take that risk or that's not what they should be. They should behave differently.

Adam: I love it. Self-awareness before you can effectively lead others, you need to be able to lead your own life before others are gonna follow you. You need to become a person. We're following the power of a mission. Believe in something bigger than yourself. If it's all about you, who's gonna follow you? What are you even leading?

Carlos: That's exactly right. 

Adam: Likability. Be yourself. Authenticity. vulnerability, self-deprecation. Great list. I love it. You kicked off your relationship with Kellogg at the age of 20. You were selling the Mexican version of Frosted Flakes. You're based in Mexico City, and you're going door to door to mom-and-pop stores. Fast forward. You're the youngest CEO in the history of Kellogg, Fortune 500 CEO. How did you rise within your career? And what can anyone listen to this conversation due to rise within their career?

Carlos: Well, I did have a disadvantage that I did not have a college degree. And what I did is I upskilled myself. I took courses. I didn't know much about accounting. So I took accounting courses, I took marketing courses, HR courses, and I would find that I'd be in a meeting sometime with a couple of MBAs and realize, I think I know more than they do about financial management. Why? Because I took the course to survive, to learn. They may have taken it to just check a box. So a big part of it is just always reading, always studying, always coming up to speed. But look at the beginning, the only thing I tried to do is survive in the job and do it really well. Don't let corporate politics get you and do whatever job you have the best you can. Don't be always thinking about the next move, when you're going to get promoted. When you get a salary increase, just do the job really well and good things will happen. And that's essentially what happened to me. When I was a salesperson, I thought, hey, maybe one day I can actually be the top salesperson in Mexico, that I could be national sales manager. I didn't say I want to be CEO. And I know that that forces you to act a certain way. And people notice it and it creates, I think, the wrong behavior. So job by job. And it wasn't until after Asia Pacific, when I went back to the head office as Executive VP of Corporate Development that I realized maybe I have a shot. And I'll never forget someone who I admire greatly, another mentor of mine in the company, who when he retired, he sent me a little note saying shoot for the top. That's all he needed to say. But it told me I have a shot at this. But it wasn't until I would say four years before I got the job.

Adam: It's interesting. One of the earliest guests on Thirty Minute Mentors was a guy by the name of Dan Helfrich. Dan is the CEO of Deloitte Consulting. And I asked Dan, how did you become the CEO of Deloitte Consulting, and he said, I became the CEO of Deloitte Consulting, because I didn't spend a single day in my career, ever thinking about becoming CEO of Deloitte Consulting, I spent every single day focused on excelling in my current job.

Carlos: That's exactly right. Exactly. Right. That's my experience. And again, going back to what my father said, there's no substitute for results. And there are two things that I really focused on. One is results. And we had a guideline that every salesperson had to visit 30 small stores. I used to visit 40. Why? Because I just, I wanted to get the job done. It was just ambition not directly related to a job. But I just wanted to do a great job in that position I had. So yes, it's a matter of focusing on what you have in front of you. And not distracting yourself with things that aren't going to happen in 10 or 15 years that will probably impact your behavior. People will notice it, the way you try to always talk to the senior people. People see these things, they smell these things out. And as you said, if there's somebody who's just looking out for themselves, people work for them, but they're not going to follow them.

Adam: What are your best tips for anyone listening on the topic of sales?

Carlos: That's a great topic, I found sales over time to be very personalized. I actually started selling in high school. And I sold magazine subscriptions of all things, not an easy sale. So hard sell. And over time, what I did is I had my pitch. And I repeated it every single time with my tone. I wasn't overly aggressive. I was a bit laid back, I wasn't pushy. If I had a joke, I'd probably tell at the same time and every single pitch, but it was my pitch. And it was the way I felt that I could sell other people, talk quicker. Other people do different things. And I took that to the rest of my career, I sold in a way that suited my personality. I wasn't a fast talker, I didn't try hard to charm people. I tried to be honest, I tried to make sure that they knew I was being honest. And if you get that in sales, then you know you're half the way there.

Adam: What's really interesting about your advice is it's the same advice around how to be a great leader, be yourself. Authenticity, essential to excelling, in sales essential to excelling in leadership.

Carlos: Absolutely, be a normal person. Anything else doesn't work. So many leaders will feel that a leader has to act a certain way. I remember there were times when I thought, I really thought that I had to be the smartest guy in the room, the guy who did all the talking, and the guy who made all the decisions. I must have driven people crazy, because I wasn't the guy who should have been doing all the talking, I should have been listening. But it takes a while. It takes a certain level of confidence to get there to get to the point where I realize it's more important to hear what people have to say. And to let them talk. And to let them see that I'm listening and not be the smartest guy in the room. It takes a certain amount of confidence and courage to open yourself up. And because I didn't have a degree, if I did that, I thought it would be oh yeah, of course he's using the people in the room because he can't do it himself. All these things that get into your head as you're going up. But when I finally hit that realization, probably 20 years into my career, I was so much better at it. I was a better leader.

Adam: Do you have any advice for anyone listening on how to short-circuit that process, how to develop more self-awareness and how to get more comfortable in their skin earlier on?

Carlos: One thing that I would encourage is to get feedback from people you trust, people who you know will be honest. One of the greatest pieces of feedback I received throughout my career, these peer reviews and peer feedback helped me and what people told me I didn't realize. For example, one thing when I was CEO, they said ‘Carlos during board week, you are unbearable. You're in a bad mood when your meeting is coming up.’ I didn't realize that. From then on during board week, I would crack jokes. So I think that's a very important aspect is to know yourself. Be comfortable with yourself. Know what you're good at, know what you're not good at. And make people around you feel comfortable that they can show their skills, they can outdo you and those skills that are really, really good. And it won't bother you. It's all about people, people, people. It's not good enough that you were first in your class at Harvard. It's not good enough that you've got an incredible mind for numbers. It's only good enough if you have people throughout supporting you. That's people who report to you people who are your peers, and people who are above you, whether you know it or not. But somebody in a boardroom is going to be sitting there one day and have to vote on you. It's everyone you come in contact with. So I tried to make friends instead of making enemies. I tried to stay away from politics. From demonstrating competition. Of course I was competitive. One thing is to be competitive. And the other one is to show and behave in a competitive fashion. It's a bit too obvious. But people really are the magic to the whole thing. The other thing, I started in the food industry. I was lucky enough to start at Kellogg, a food company. And my father was in the food industry, he was in the pineapple business. So for me, I always thought, the food industry, that's really my thing, and I want to get into the industry. So do something you like, do something you love, something that you want to get up for every day, I don't think it's worth spending 30 years of your life, working 12-14 hours a day and not seeing the family traveling too much and then get a job that you don't really like. So having the right place, the right company, the right vision for yourself. And it doesn't have to be business. It can be whatever your vision is, it could be running an NGO, whatever that is, you will be successful at what you love. And chances are you won't be successful at what you don't like.

Adam: How do your experience leading in business compared to your experience leading in government? And what are the best lessons that you learn from your time as Secretary of Commerce?

Carlos: Well, first of all, it's the best job I've ever had. I took a big pay cut. But I would do it again, which was an amazing experience. Leadership is leadership. And people want to see that a leader has the courage to make decisions that they may not have. Courage is something that is valued and very often admired. So I made some decisions at Commerce that were risky, because you're living in a political fishbowl and half of the people in Congress want you to fail. So that's a very important part of it. The other thing in terms of people, career people in government are separated from the political people. It's kind of ridiculous. So we had a dining room for political people. When you had a meeting to talk about policy, we invited political people. And so I said ‘To heck with this, let's invite whoever knows about this topic.’ And I realized very quickly that the people who really know are the career people in government, incredibly bright, incredibly knowledgeable. So in my time, the four years I was there, it wasn't easy to distinguish between a career person and a political person. I think that helped. The other few things that helped me personally are one is to be a team player. The President brought you in so you can be a team player for him. If you're not a team player for the President, you're not supporting him. Number two is don't worry about who sees the President more than you do. If the Secretary of Energy saw them 10 times and you only saw him six times, forget about them. That's just nonsense. And it just creates angst. And the third thing, which was very helpful to me, was to make friends. Don't worry about enemies, they'll find you, but just make a lot of friends, which is what I ultimately did.

Adam: And that's a key theme, the power of making friends, whether it's leading in government leading in business leading in life.

Carlos: Yeah, yeah. People will push you up. It's not just the people at the top who pull you up. But people below you, your peers will be there to support you. And there'll come a point in time when someone will ask them, ‘Who do you think should be the next CEO? Or what do you think of Carlos?’ And that's the moment where your relationships pay off, they'll probably say he's a great guy. And that wouldn't be the case for a lot of other people who just didn't get the fact that their job was all about people. And by the way, it'll be all about people in the future. It's not going to be about robots, the most sought-after skill projected into 2040 is persuasion. Not data scientists or ChatGPT.

Adam: Along those lines, what advice do you have for anyone listening to this conversation on how to become more effective at persuading others? Really ties into a lot of the topics we've been talking about: how to lead, how to sell, how to be more effective in winning within an organization. What advice would you share?

Carlos: I think gaining trust is a big deal. In our plants in Mexico, people weren't used to this but if you wanted a cup of coffee, you just left some money in this little basket, very just against the typical culture. At the beginning. It didn't work. Go. We tried it again, didn't work out, we tried it again. And it worked out. We had situations well in Mexico by law, and I think Mexico was my first big leadership job. I was 29 when I got the job, 30 when I landed in Mexico, had the job for five years, it taught me so much about myself of what I could do. We were successful, we did a great job in Mexico. There's a law in Mexico that companies have to redistribute profits, to everyone except for the CEO of that subsidiary. It's just part of the law. And it's been there for a long time. Everyone knows that a lot of companies when they're going to have a blowout year, they move expenses in to keep profits down so that next year, they don't have bad comps, or so that they don't have to pay out so much. The year that I had the opportunity to make a decision on that, I just told the finance CFO “Let it all fall to the bottom line, every single dime, let it fall to the bottom line. People who worked on the shop floor got the biggest check they've ever seen in their life.” They couldn't believe it. So that just told them you can trust the leaders, you can trust them, they're not going to fool around with they're not going to pull one on, they're not going to cheat you. Once you gain trust, then your sales job is so much more viable. If people trust you, they'll trust what you're saying about what you're selling. If they don't trust you, you can say whatever you want, but they're not going to believe it. So I think trust is another one of these overlooked skills. But you have to work hard at it. But it's absolutely worth it.

Adam: What did you look for in the people who you surrounded yourself with, whether it was people who you hired, whether it was people who you had the people who worked for you try to hire, whether it was people in your inner circle? What were those key characteristics? And more broadly, what advice do you have on how to build high-performing teams and highly successful cultures?

Carlos: An interesting one for me, because I didn't get it right from the beginning. And I never traveled in a pack. So when I went from Mexico to Canada, I didn't take my Mexican buddies with me to Canada, same thing Canada, US, same thing us to Australia, I didn't travel in a pack, I built a team everywhere I went, which meant that no one was more important than somebody else. Just because it's my gang. And they worked with me in the past. I never did that. So I had to start a new team in every new place. I made the mistake early on to hire people who I liked, hire people who I could have a conversation with and enjoy it. And I liked them. But it didn't really mean much in terms of do they have the skills to they have the leadership qualities do they have the will to make tough decisions, all those things that you can miss in an interview when you're looking for someone you like, or you just assume if I like them, everybody else will like them, it'll be a good hire. I brought in someone from Harvard, second in his class at Harvard MBA. And I did it to show the board that I wasn't afraid of surrounding myself with people with MBAs because they knew I didn't have a degree. And I realized after 18 months, that I had made a mistake. He was brilliant. He was great. He's just unbelievable. His ability to observe, to take in data and remember it and use it. His problem was that if you said ‘Look here, 15 things, pick three, he couldn't do that.’ Everything was important. So that just threw the organization off. And it was another mistake I made very early on. And by the way, I made my biggest mistakes within the first 18 months. So anybody who takes a new job like that, they've got to brace themselves, they're gonna do some things throughout the first 18 months that they want to in a second 18 months. You start managing on the basis of analytics on the basis of what the consultants are telling you. When actually what you learn to do is to follow your gut and realize that your gut is used the right, your brain is the one that often works against you. So after those failures, what I did is said ‘The heck with it. I'm gonna go out and find people who I know inside of the company, many who are street fighters who have grit, who are smart, who have the ability to work together. I don't care where they went to school. I don't care if I liked them.’ And there were a couple of people who, frankly, were not my friends. And I don't think they liked me that much. But it didn't matter. What mattered is that we both liked the business. So that for me was a growing experience. It's not to hire people that everyone else will like, it's not to hire people that will impress the board, it's to hire people that will get results. And boy, it takes a while to break through all the clutter and realize that's what I'm doing. I'm hiring someone to deliver for me. And as I said, I wanted street fighters, I wanted people who had been in a mess, who had lost market share, gotten back, who had grit. And that's when I started becoming a good CEO. The other thing I did, by the way, is the culture in our company. We used to call it hands-on, which meant that the CEO was expected to be hands-on, get involved in advertising, get involved into products, get involved in everything hands on. What I did is just set direction, step back, put great people in jobs and said go do it. It was very unplugged. But it works. It worked for me to trust people, give them direction and delegate. It's managing people not managing the work. And very often, leaders, new leaders believe that it's all about managing the work. And it's not. It's all about the people.

Adam: You shared a lot of great insights there, and I want to unpack some of it. First and foremost, this issue around likability, really important for leaders to be likable, for leaders to lean into their authenticity to lean into their authentic selves. But when you're building a team, it's important to remember that you're building a team in the best interest of your company. You are a fiduciary to your organization, your coworkers, aren't your friends, they might become your friends, but you're not out there to hire friends. You're out there to hire the best people possible. And that list that you gave, looking for street fighters, people with grit, battle scars, not afraid to make tough decisions. That's a very different list than looking for someone with an MBA from Harvard, someone who is Phi Beta Kappa, someone who has worked for the most prestigious companies in America, you can have both. They're not mutually exclusive. But that first list. That's what it's all about.

Carlos: Yeah, that's absolutely right. That's the lesson, that business is about business, not about friendships. I gained a reputation throughout my career of being able to make tough decisions. So my first decision when I arrived as general manager of Mexico, was to close the plant for 90 days. And I did it on the basis of my instincts, my gut. I thought we had to. We loaded the train, it was just a mess. And then throughout my career, I'm not saying I'm proud of this, but I had to shut down the Battle Creek plant, which was Mr. Kellogg's original plant a lot later when I became CEO. So it's interesting. I was likable, but people knew that I was capable of making really, really tough calls on individuals and on groups. And I think what people liked about that was, first of all, I didn't let it get to me and walk around like I was all-powerful. Second, I think people like a leader who has courage. like, ‘Boy, that was a courageous thing to do, the shut down the plant. It was probably the best thing after we looked back after six months. But I liked that about Carlos, I admire that he has more courage than I do. And I want a leader like that.’ And then people I think, just understood, I kept being Carlos, I kept being that nice guy. But everybody knew, he is capable of making very tough decisions. And that was part of my reputation for my whole career. So it's kind of like this combination of opposites right? You're great with people, you love them and they love you. But, boy, when you've got to make a decision that includes people, you make it.

Adam: One of the keys to leading effectively is, on the one hand, leading with love, and on the other hand, leading with accountability, and they go hand in hand. It allows you to earn respect, build trust. Helps those who you're leading see you as a complete person, as a real person, as a person who they want to work for.

Carlos: Those are important, respect. So I don't know if my people thought I loved them. But I always respected them. And it's the little things, its tactics. When someone spoke in a meeting, I listened intently. That was a sign of respect. I never scolded someone in a public meeting in a meeting with others. But I did tell them what was going on inside my office one on one. So respecting people. It’s another way of showing love because it's important to people that they be respected. And it's the little things that we miss, we miss as leaders that I should have said goodbye to that person, I should have shaken that person's hand, I should have said, Congratulations on a great quarter, I should have done more than I did. If you get that that's good, because you're aware and you're trying to improve. But if you don't realize that every single person in that room was thinking about what you're thinking, every single person in the company is looking at what you're doing. And that's where people are reaching conclusions. So treating people with respect is so important, and it doesn't come naturally to people. And people don't think it's that important. They think you just have to be known as the tough guy.

Adam: What can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Carlos: It's a dual-sided coin. On one hand, you have to have a vision, you have to have a dream. And again, it's not specific. It's not ‘I want to be CEO.’ It's ‘I want to be successful. I want to accomplish things.’ Even having a picture of yourself in 20 years in your mind. I tell you, it works. This is what I want to look like when I'm in that C-suite. This is what I look like when I'm in a board meeting. It's incredible how things like that actually become reality. And then on the other hand, it's yeah, have the vision, have the dream. But make sure you're focused on today's job. So it's that combination of the two, that I think nobody should be ashamed of dreaming or ashamed of saying they have a dream that they have people they admire, that they have role models. That's what it's all about. It's about role models, admiring people. I think that's the key skill.

Adam: Secretary Gutierrez, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Carlos: My pleasure, great questions. I enjoyed it.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally-recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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