Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Interview with Chief Justice Bridget Mary McCormack

I recently interviewed Bridget Mary McCormack on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview (note that the transcript is not 100% accurate, as it was captured through an automated transcription service and lightly edited. For the interview in its most accurate form, please listen directly at www.thirtyminutementors.com):

Adam: Our guest today is not only one of the most accomplished attorneys and jurists in the country, but the chief justice of the Michigan Supreme court. In 2012 Bridget Mary McCormick was elected to the Michigan Supreme court and six years after assuming office was named the 70th chief justice in Michigan history. Bridget is also the founder of the Michigan innocence clinic, the first innocence clinic in the country that exclusively handles non DNA evidence cases. Rigid. Thank you for joining us.

Bridget: Thank you for having me.

Adam: How did you get here? Can you talk about your path from your childhood all the way to your days as a lawyer and law professor?

Bridget: Yeah, I, I feel like I've had a wonderful career that's been somewhat accidental. I grew up in New Jersey in a family without any lawyers. Went to college and studied political science and philosophy and got interested in issues of justice. In particular, I did some work in a juvenile detention facility in Hartford, Connecticut when I was in college and got interested in the justice system. So I applied to law school not knowing a whole lot about what that was or what it would entail and found myself at NYU law school where I was able to get all kinds of great experience and figure out what it was I wanted to do. And I went from law school to be a public defender in New York city. I represented thousands of clients charged with crimes in the state trial and appellate courts, and then took a two year teaching fellowship at Yale law school where I was teaching law students in clinical classes, classes where they represented live clients. And in particular I taught a prison clinic from Yale law school. I landed at the university of Michigan law school in a tenure track job and a permanent job and founded a number of clinical programs at the university of Michigan law school, including, as you said in your kind introduction, the Michigan innocence clinic.

Adam: Can you talk a little bit about the Michigan innocence clinic? What inspired you to start it? I mean it's obviously something that is revolutionary in terms of what it does and what it's doing. Can you share a little bit more about the mission with listeners and what it's been able to achieve so far?

Bridget: Yeah, absolutely. I most folks know now about innocence projects and what they have accomplished over the last 2025 years. Ever since sort of the Dawn of DNA, we've had innocence projects and other, you know, lawyers around the country, public defender's offices who have been able to prove wrongful convictions. And I mean by that prove them conclusively with scientific evidence. DNA has been sort of a game changer in being able to tell a story about how the criminal justice system can go wrong and, and, and that, and there are quite a few of those stories to tell at this point. Thousands. In fact, enough that scholars have been able to study a database of those wrongful convictions and get a sense of how common wrongful conviction is and what goes wrong to cause wrongful conviction. And at the university of Michigan law school in 2006 and seven, I had handled a number of wrongful conviction cases in my clinical teaching, but they were cases where there was no DNA.

And I mean by that there was no biological evidence to test from which you know, we could prove conclusively scientifically that the wrong person in convict and convicted. And that's because, you know, not in every case does a perpetrator leave biological evidence. So there are lots of cases in the criminal justice system where the same kinds of things that go wrong in the DNA cases, the DNA innocence cases can go wrong in, in those other cases as well. And we thought at the university of Michigan law school, we have a bunch of really smart law students. Why not put them to work on some of those harder cases, the cases where someone might well be innocent and had been wrongfully convicted but there's not going to be DNA that we can test to be able to prove it in a sort of simple scientific way. These were going to be harder cases. These non-DNA cases where we were going to have to find other evidence to prove somebody's innocence. And that seems like a worthy project both because it was clear to us that that mistakes were likely made at the same rate if not higher. And because there was nobody to take those cases on. So we started the first exclusive non DNA innocence clinic in the country and it's been incredibly successful. I think they might be up to 19 or 20 exonerations since we founded it in 2008

Now that you're on the other side of the table and are not only on the state Supreme court, but are the chief justice of the Supreme court, how has your perspective changed or has it changed and what do you think about the criminal justice system and how do you view it differently than you may have before you were elected into office?

Well, honestly my role has changed because I'm no longer an advocate. I'm an arbiter. And so it's important to understand that in a courtroom there are advocates and they have a job to do. And then there's a judge or in my, in my case, seven judges and we have a different job to do and that's to make a decision based on the law. But I don't think my view of the system and what goes wrong in it has changed. In fact, if anything, I now see, you know, thousands of criminal cases and convictions and in some ways have a broader perspective on what ails the criminal justice system. I just chaired a task force over the last six months with the Lieutenant governor that here in Michigan was bipartisan. It was a joint effort between all three branches of government, Republicans and Democrats alike and nonpartisans like me, as well as the Michigan Sheriff's and the Michigan association of counties.

To take a deep dive into why our jail populations in Michigan have expanded so dramatically over the last three decades when crime is at a 50 year low and make recommendations to the legislature about what to do about that. And we delivered those recommendations just this morning, 18 of them that a very diverse group of stakeholders meeting for the last six months very regularly came to consensus about. So my, my perspective I don't think has changed even though my role has and when I'm deciding cases, my role is that of a judge, I have to apply the law equally to everybody before me. But in my role as being in charge of the administration of the courts, which is what the Michigan Supreme court is also tasked with doing per our constitution, I'm able to be involved in some statewide efforts for improvements in the system.

And that's quite gratifying. Can you talk a little bit more about what your job entails? What do you do on a day to day basis and what are some of your core responsibilities? Yeah, it's an interesting job because the decision making part of it is the part probably most people are familiar with you. If you're familiar with the U S Supreme court, you know, the U S Supreme court, you know, sits as a panel of nine and has the final decision to make on questions of law that come up through the federal courts and the state Supreme courts do the same thing. So on the Michigan Supreme court, seven of us have the final decision to make on questions of law that come up through our state court system. I should say that, you know, people don't realize this, but most law is that judicated by state courts, 95% 96% of civil cases and criminal cases are adjudicated in your state courts.

So your state Supreme court really has an important role to play in the development of the law and the doctrine in your state. But in addition to that, like I was saying before, here in Michigan, we also have, we are also charged with administering the courts of the state. That's the language the constitution uses. Our state has 242 trial courts throughout the state. And, and, and it's in those courts where most people interact with the branch of government. You know, very few people go to the Michigan Supreme court, but an awful lot of people know somebody who had to go to a district court, somebody in their family or their neighbor or that somebody in their church, their community. So an awful lot of people are impacted by those trial courts. And our responsibility in supporting those trial courts and rulemaking with respect to those trial courts and supporting the work they do is in some ways as important as our decision making function. In my view, we have the ability to really affect how they do business, what they do and how they do it. And if they do that well, people's experience with the branch,

It's better for it. As a leader of central, large and sprawling and important organization, what do you believe are the key elements to being an effective leader?

I think there are so many. But I think if you had to pick the key ones, I think being able to enter every situation with an open mind with curiosity, there's always something to learn. I think that's critical. I think being willing to take responsibility when you should is also critical. I think for people to work with you and be motivated by you, they have to understand that you're willing to take responsibility when it's time for you to take it. And then I think finding a way to make sure that when people have an interest in a certain kind of work and they have a passion for it, that you can make sure they get to do that work. I have a couple of colleagues now who have a real passion for child welfare and I have basically set them loose on looking at the way, the ways in which we can improve, how child welfare is practiced in our courts throughout the state and it's one of the best decisions I ever made because those two are incredible.

Adam: Can you talk a little bit more about finding your passion? How did you find your passion for the law and how did you find your passion for what you're doing now? I mean, you know, most of your life and most of your adult life, you are not a judge or a justice. How did this interest come about and what advice do you have for listeners on the topic?

Bridget: Yeah, I, in fact, I don't think I ever set out to be a judge. I don't remember ever thinking as a young lawyer or even as a faculty member, you know, someday I'm going to be a judge. That wasn't really what I had in mind. I do think I always had an eye for and an interest in systems and how to make them work better for more people. And I was lucky enough as a law professor in running clinical programs at a law school was smart law students and lots of resources to be able to tackle some of those systems problems. So the Michigan innocence clinic, for example, was designed not only to advocate for the individuals who had been wrongfully convicted, but at the same time to shine a light on the problems that caused those wrongful convictions because the same problems happen over and over again.

Ineffective assistance of counsel, false confessions, bad identifications, bad forensic science, and to the extent we could shine a light on those bigger systems and figure out how to make improvements in those, we would see fewer and fewer wrongful convictions going forward. And the systems aspect of it has always been a passion of mine and that probably is why as a justice on the Supreme court and now the chief justice, the administrative work, the work that allows us to figure out how to do better in our trial courts is one of the things that gets me most excited every day when I wake up. I really do have a passion for that. I think finding your passion is maybe someone else might be better at giving advice on how to find your passion. I feel like mine found me. I don't, I, I, you know, I, I did at a very young age spend some time in a juvenile facility and was troubled by some of what I experienced and figuring out what to do about it has been, you know, a lifelong project for me. I represented individuals in that system and I think doing that, I did well by those individuals, but I don't think I was necessarily making a difference across the system as a law faculty member running clinical programs. I think I was making more of a difference. But now clearly I have the biggest opportunity to leave the system better than I found it. And I'm, I'm maybe, maybe you might say it took me awhile cause I'm 53 but you know, here I am.

Adam: I don't think that there's any age that's too early or too late to find her passion and to discover not only what you love to do, but what really helps you make a great difference and a great impact in the lives of others. And it sounds like you found it and are really doing tremendous work. Can you describe your decision making process as a justice and as the chief justice and what advice do you have for listeners on how to come to the right decision when facing really tough choices personally or professionally?

Bridget: Absolutely. The art, my decision making process as a justice about legal questions is pretty regimented. In fact, I have four law clerks who helped me with it. They advise me on every legal decision, legal determination I make and I'm guided by the law as it comes to me, which means either in the form of statutes or the constitution or in previous cases and in a way a judge’s decision making is constrained such that, I don't want to say it's easy, but it's a lot easier than some of the hard decisions I think people have to make in their lives. Moral decisions or even practical decisions where you're not bound by statutes and constitutional language and doctrine. So it's those other decisions. And again, I'll return to the administrative work of the court where there are harder decisions about what the right balance is between balancing the needs of tenants.

On the one hand for example, who are being evicted and landlords on the other who have, you know, a business to run and need to be able to, you know, pay their employees and how do find the right process when most people on a certain docket are self-represented. How do we figure out what the right balance is? And those questions are actually harder in a way because they're not bound by or constrained by statutory language were prior case law. They're just how do we get, how do we come to the decision that is most effective for the most people and is evidence based and values driven. I think for me in those harder cases having people to talk through the hard parts of it with is invaluable. I'm lucky to have excellent colleagues and some excellent members of my senior leadership team without whom I don't. There's no, there's no way I could make those hard decisions every day. I really rely on them to kick the tires of my ideas and help me come to the best decisions,

Adam: On the topic of balance, how have you been able to balance such a successful professional career with being a mom and raising a family? Yeah, I get this question a lot and I always say that it's a little bit of a I feel like it's, it, it's a way to make us all feel like we don't do it well because I don't think, I don't think in any given day I'm ever nailing all of it. And so what I like to tell my law students, I still, I still teach one class every year and young lawyers is to think about balance more across the, across your career than in any given day, week, month or year. There were years where my career got more out of me than my kids did. I was, you know, before I had my clinical tenure, when I was running for statewide office work was demanding a whole lot of me right now as the chief justice is demanding a whole lot of me right now.

Bridget: Thank goodness my kids are all out of the house. So I have a little more space for that. But there were also years where my kids were demanding more of me and I feel like work maybe didn't get the very best. Bridget, my oldest son had epilepsy as a kidney, spent some time in a hospital, fourth grade and fifth grade. And I spent a lot of time in the hospital with him because that's where I needed to be. And I think that my colleagues picked up the pieces and my students gave me a break. But I do think hopefully over the course of a wonderful career and having raised some wonderful kids, I hope they all feel like they got enough of me. Over the course of all of it. That's, that's a better way to think of it. I hope for me at least. Can you talk a little bit

Adam: More about your support system and if not your personal support system. What is the kind of support system and who are the kinds of people that we as leaders need to surround ourselves with to be successful?

Bridget: You know, I, I rely in a daily way on a couple of my colleagues who are also very good friends who therefore are fully in the loop on the decisions that we are making that are confidential. So they're not the kind of things I can talk to. Other good friends who I rely on for other important questions. So I think having partners in the work you're doing is critical partners you really trust and who you know, can tell you when they disagree with you. You need people to be able to tell you that when they disagree with you. I feel, you know, lucky and grateful to have a partner in my husband who, who, who is somebody I can run really hard decisions by and he will focus like nobody I know and give me some of the best advice out there and that's, I'm grateful for that. And then friends who I have worked with in other jobs throughout the year and have known me throughout the years who are incredibly helpful with some of the harder things that we have to figure out. But I don't know how people do it in their own head. That doesn't work for me. I have to talk things through. Usually even just talking something through with someone out loud will make me realize I already had an idea. I just needed to say it out loud to figure out what it was. I was thinking,

Adam: What are some of your best time management tips?

Bridget: Man, I should come on and listen to your other cause. My friends and family will tell you that. My, my time management right now is getting up early and working all day and working late. So I do work a lot. I will say this, I work better, more effectively, more efficiently when I am able to do some things that are unrelated to work. When I work out in the morning, I'm, I'm better all day. I have a more effective day. I have a more efficient day. I think better, I think more clearly and I'm not any kind of super athlete. Not at all, not even close actually. I'm, in fact, I work out for my mental health, not my physical health, although I hope there are some physical benefits. But the truth is it helps me think clearly. That's why I like to sweat when I sleep well, I am better during the day. I'm more efficient, more effective when I have time for connecting with my kids, my spouse, my friends. When the computers off and the phones in the other room, it allows me to be better. These things all seem kind of obvious, but they also are all true for me.

Adam: You've taught many law students over the course of your career, you've mentored many young lawyers. A common theme that I'm sure you've come across is law students. Not necessarily certain that they want to practice law, but they've decided to go into it, at least for now, lawyers who might be practicing but aren't necessarily fully fulfilled in what they're doing and are really kind of trying to figure out what they can do to bring themselves happiness. Do you agree with that? What advice do you give? You've obviously figured out what path to take that not only brings you personal success, but personal fulfillment and happiness. What advice do you have for them and for listeners?

Bridget: I think it's really important to be able to make sure that when you get up every day, if you're a lawyer, if you went to the trouble of going to law school and paid the law school tuition, you owe it to yourself to make sure when you wake up most days you like what it is you're doing. For some people, the traditional big law career path is quite satisfying. I know I, you know, I have friends who are partners in big law who are very satisfied, happy lawyers and others who could never do it for a week, much less 10 2030 years or a career. And that's fine. Legal training can be quite an advantage in so many fields and so many different kinds of work. You know, entrepreneurs who have legal training have an advantage. Most people in business who have legal training, having an advantage, policymakers who have legal training have an advantage. You know, lawyers throughout the course of history have done big important things and small important things and they've played a critical role in lots of change that has made the world a better place. It's a great privilege and advantage to have a law degree. I would not do a legal job that didn't give me satisfaction or worse one that made me unhappy for very long. I think you can decide to do something else and you should.

What do you believe are the keys to becoming an effective communicator? That's obviously a core element to being successful as an attorney to being successful in the court system. And you're at the top of it. What advice do you have?

I think to be an effective communicator, you have to first be a very good listener. I mean figuring out what it is someone is really concerned about, which isn't always reflected exactly in their words, depending on how complicated the topic is or what it is you're working on, but being able to really listen and then ask the right questions to get to the bottom of what it is that's causing an impasse or that needs to be addressed is I think the most important part of being a good communicator. Once you know what it is other people care about, you usually can find a way to meet them halfway or figure out what the path forward is, but unless you understand what's bugging somebody, what's what they're concerned about, your communication is not going to be very effective.

A core element of your job as chief justice is trying to build consensus. Can you talk about the topic of building consensus and your best tips for leaders on how they can build consensus within their teams and organizations?

Yeah. Building consensus on a multi-member court is, is, is critical. I mean, in fact so critical that your, your view doesn't carry unless you have some consensus in a court of seven, you need a consensus of at least four. But frankly, I, it's my strong belief that unanimous opinions are even better, that are always better than divided opinions can always get them, can't always get perfect consensus. And there's a, you know, there's a process for a dissenting judge to explain his or her thinking. But when you have a unanimous opinion in a difficult case, I believe it's, it's effective for the public. It's easier for the public to understand when seven justices believed, you know, came to the same conclusion about what the law required. Same for the administrative work. You know, we have administrative decisions that are also not clearly ones everybody will agree about.

At the outset. We just issued a rule last week requiring trial courts to permit people to come bring their cell phones into the courthouses. It used to be the case that we left that decision to the chief judges in the different courthouses throughout the state, which meant that there were different rules in every, in, in different courthouses. And that's really difficult for the public for especially for self-represented litigants, people who can't afford lawyers and jurors who show up at the courthouse and you know, maybe they use their phone to get lift to get them there. And then they get to the courthouse and they're told they can't bring their phone into the courthouse. It really is an access to justice issue. So we considered whether to issue a statewide rule requiring all of the courts of the state to allow the public to bring their cell phones into the courthouses. And we, and we, and we decided to issue that rule, but it took, we took a lot of public comment, we had a public hearing and then we talked about it around our conference table on a number of occasions before we came to our conclusion about what to do and making sure everybody has an opportunity to express what concerns they have about it. And even work those concerns into the final draft rule can usually get people to consensus, but it takes time. It takes patience and again, it takes very good listening skills.

Adam: Your sister and brother are a successful actress and actor respectively. What are some of the key things you've learned from their experiences in Hollywood that have impacted your career and your perspective as a leader?

Bridget: I think my brother and sister are both successful because they are decent human beings. I mean they're both, they're both very, very funny. They're both very, very likable. And I think they've each had success in a very different industry than mine in large part because relationships are a key to success in that. But frankly, relationships are probably a key to success in just about any industry. You know, we've been talking about consensus and good communication and good listening skills and all of those things come down to good relationships. My brother and sister have great relationships within their business and I think that's helped them be successful. And I like to think I do too. And it's, it's worked out for me here in LA too.

Adam: What do you think anyone can do to become a better leader tomorrow?

Bridget: I think people who are interested in developing leadership skills, I, this might sound like kind of corny, but I, I actually have read a ton of books about leadership that not everything in every one of those books is for me, but I usually learn something because it's hard to, it's hard to do a self-evaluation and see where your particular shortcomings are. So I don't think there's a one size fits all answer for what everybody should do to become a better leader, but really what you need to do is figure out what it is about you that might be getting in the way of you being the best leader you can be. So being thoughtful and reflective and reading and being willing to ask people who work with you and for you for some real feedback, honest feedback, and then being willing to take 100% responsibility for what those shortcomings are is a pretty good first step. I would say.

Adam: Any other final thoughts in terms of ways that listeners can become successful personally or professionally?

Bridget: I don't know. I think you know, doing what you love, doing, what makes you excited to get out of bed every day is a big part of the equation as well. I would start there almost every time.

Adam: One final question. What are your thoughts on the future of the criminal justice system in America?

Bridget: I am optimistic, the bipartisan and very strong public support for creating a system that is both healthier, safer, and ultimately more just has really been wonderful to see here in Michigan and I know there are similar, there's similar work going on in States around the country and I think we are on our way to a, to a better city.