Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Hockey Hall of Famer Chris Pronger

I recently interviewed Hockey Hall of Famer Chris Pronger on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is one of the greatest hockey players of all time. Chris Pronger was a six time All Star, two time Olympic gold medalist and an NHL MVP. Chris is a Stanley Cup champion, a member of the Hockey Hall of Fame, and a member of the NHL official list of its 100 Greatest Players in League History. Chris is also the co-founder of the whiskey company, The JRNY. Chris, thank you for joining us.

Chris: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Adam: You grew up in Ontario, Canada, where hockey is a religion. And as a teenager, you were the number two overall pick in the NHL draft. You made your NHL debut as a teenager, you were 19. You played in the NHL for the next 18 seasons. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What early experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

Chris: Yeah, I think early on being cut from a team when I was 14, I didn't prepare properly. I just relied on my talent and didn't get into the best shape I could have. And there was a little bit of politics involved. But also I didn't give myself the best chance to succeed and have success. And from that I was given an opportunity to make the team in a different way, and was fortunate enough to do that. And then from that, I was able to really focus on making sure that I righted the wrong and didn't make that same mistake again and use that life lesson for everything that I do. Make sure I'm prepared. Make sure I'm doing the most and to the best of my ability, everything possible to succeed and be successful. In everything that I do. I feel like I've had a lot of success since then.

Adam: Your rookie year in the NHL, great season on the ice. But off the ice, you ran into some problems, including– 

Chris: To say the least! 

Adam: – generously, a couple of arrests. You were then traded from the Whalers to the Blues. But within a few years, not only did you become a star in the NHL, but you became team captain, you became the clear leader of the team. How did you develop not only as a player, but as a person. And as a leader?

Chris: I think I needed to mature into number one who I wanted to become and then who I thought I could become. And it certainly was not a straight line. You just mentioned a couple of blips on the radar. But I think for me, it was a matter of feeling more comfortable in my skin, my own skin and really, again, maturing. More off the ice, certainly on the ice was not an issue. After my first couple years in the league, I had a better understanding of what I needed to do to be successful. Again, how I needed to prepare, it had a thorough understanding as to where I fit in and how I needed to play to be successful. And then it was more just maturing off the ice and getting a real good understanding of who I was off the ice and what my persona was. I didn't want to be Chris Pronger the hockey player, or Chris Pronger the Blues player, or Chris Pronger the Whaler, or what have you. I wanted to have my own identity and tried to really forge that, reading books and becoming a little more worldly and getting a better understanding of what was going on in the real world outside of my sport and what I was doing on a day to day basis.

Adam: I love that. You shared a couple of things there that are applicable to every person listening. There is no linear path to success. There are always going to be ups and downs. It's about the ultimate direction that you take and how you bounce back from the obstacles that you face and how you bounce back from those downs. You mentioned that you were able to develop comfort in your own skin that helped you mature off the ice and helped you become more successful on the ice. Can you dive deeper into that? How did you get to a place where you were able to feel comfortable in your own skin where you were able to ultimately become your best self?

Chris: As a leader, you need to learn your way into the role somewhat early on. As a young captain at the age of 23, still trying to find myself and get a better understanding of who I was. As a leader, you need to hold not only yourself accountable, but teammates, etc. And I learned very, very early on that if I was going to hold my teammates accountable for how they were playing how we were playing, that I needed to make sure I was taking care of what I needed to do how I needed to play it, to allow us the opportunity to be successful and do my job to the best of my ability, and then hold my teammates feet to the fire and be like, ‘Okay, I'm doing my job, I'm doing what I need to do. I'm in the gym, I'm working, I'm practicing hard, I'm playing hard.’ And then you're able to have the ability to get in somebody's face or have the ability to saddle up next to somebody like, ‘Hey, we need a little bit more from you. I know you got it in you.’ And they respect that and you learn as a leader, what works and what doesn't. No two people are alike. Some people are like the rah rah, some people are quiet. Some people like it when you confront them face to face, others don't. They want you to quietly go beside them and talk to them. And you really get a better feel and understanding the longer you obviously do something. And so it was just a way to mature into that role. I feel like I became a much better leader, as the years went on because of that.

Adam: Did you have any kind of mentorship along the way? Were there other leaders on your team coaches, players, who helped get you to that place?

Chris: Yeah, absolutely. My first year pro in Hartford, my roommate was Brad McCrimmon. I was 18. He was 36, arguably could have been my dad. And I roomed with him. He was my defense partner. Unfortunately for him, he had to drag me everywhere. And so we're always talking about life, talking about the game, talking about everything. And certainly he was a big factor and a big part of my career and how I went on to success. Had a number of great leaders in St. Louis early on in my career and having the opportunity to play with a guy like Wayne Gretzky to see how he handled the notoriety, how he handled the media, how he prepared for games. Al MacInnis was another one here in St. Louis. Grant Fuhr was our goalie my first year and just seeing how not lackadaisical but carefree he was with respect to how he played the game, and let things just slide off his back. And then we made a mistake. ‘Oh, well, alright, well, we'll go get him next year, if I'm not gonna let that happen again. And I'm not going to make that same mistake,’ was very calm and soothing to a young player like myself at the time. Jeff Cornell was another one that really took me under his wing. So lots of mentors early on, and even off the ice, a couple of great mentors in my life that I've looked up to and really appreciated their guidance and wisdom, as it relates to family and purpose off the ice.

Adam: You mentioned Wayne Gretzky. What was the single best lesson that you learned, from your time spent on the ice off the ice with Wayne Gretzky?

Chris: Well, just watching how he carried himself, seeing the day to day fandom, from the media, from the fans from the opposing teams, and then obviously, you know, our team and not getting caught up in that per se. Keeping a key eye out for little tidbits in how you would handle the media and how you would give everybody look them in the eye, say their name. And just be very personable. Sometimes it can be a little combative with the media at times, and I was certainly one of those guys, but we're all there to promote the game and do the job to the best of our abilities. And you certainly got to give people that.

Adam: It's a really important lesson, which is that Wayne Gretzky, greatest hockey player of all time, wasn't too important to remember someone's name. He wasn't too important to say hi to someone to make someone feel good, feel important, feel like they're a real person.

Chris: Yeah, no, it was great to see he's certainly not the only one that I had the chance to play with it acted that way and was very cordial to everybody that came in contact with and I think it's a valuable lesson by as a young 20 year old when I played with him and 21 year old to then be able to watch and see some of the greats of our game handle those situations and certainly model it to a certain extent. And you're able to look back and go, ‘Well, if he can do that, why can't I do that?’ And treat people with that same grace and respect and it's something that I prided myself on.

Adam: And a key theme here really is the importance of being around people who you can learn from being around mentors, being around people who I call mini-mentors, even if they're not traditional mentors who you might have a deep intimate relationship with, even if you're around them to some small extent, you could learn by osmosis, you could learn by studying them, you could learn by understanding what they do. And incorporating that into your style, as you've done with so many of the greats who you've been around, not only great players, but great people.

Chris: You know, we all have to have an understanding of how we learn best, and I'm very visual, and you're able to take in, whether it's honing your craft and learning from others and mimicking and watching how they do it, and things of that nature. Then mimicking off the ice and how people handle themselves, carry themselves, prepare all those little things and little details, add up to big things and add up to success. And so I've been fortunate enough to have a lot of great leaders early on in my athletic career, and then early on in my business career to lean on and ask questions and get a lot of great advice. And it's been a lot of trial and error, so to speak at times. But certainly with great people around you, you're gonna have great success.

Adam: Chris, as you shared your journey, as a leader developing into not only becoming the team captain, but becoming a real credible team captain, so much of it was about the importance of leading by example, the importance of developing the credibility that allowed you to share feedback with your teammates, to hold your teammates accountable. By walking the walk by being someone who your teammates, we're going to listen to, we're going to want to follow, we're going to want to hear what you had to say. As you look back, as you think about your leadership style, as you think about the leadership styles of those around you, the great players, the great coaches that were most effective, what do you believe are the key characteristics of the most effective leaders? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Chris: Well, I think first and foremost is belief that they can win or belief that they can jump on my back and I'll lead you to the Promised Land, you know, obviously from a sports perspective. But I think when you look at leaders and business leaders in life, it's how they carry themselves, their persona, it exudes success and positivity and good nature. So when I look at elite leaders that I've been around, they just carry themselves differently. You get a sense and a feel when you're around them that good things are gonna happen. And people always bring up ‘Oh, the puck just seems to find more. How does he get so wide open or done?’ and all these different things that we hear about sports, or good things happen to this businessman and man or woman. How do they seem to always have success or have winning companies? There's no secret, it's the people and it's always about the people, and who you surround yourself with. And not taking yourself too serious and just putting in the work. At the end of the day. It's all about putting the work in. And then good things happen with people that grind and work and continue to hone their craft, whatever that is. Good things always happen to good people.

A lot of great things happened over the course of your career. You also had a lot of challenges. You were hit by a puck in the chest. You were hit by a stick in the eye. You had a number of concussions. But you bounced back, you were as tough a player as there was, you exuded toughness. How did you develop that level of toughness? We could talk about physical toughness, but I would imagine listeners probably as interested if not more interested in understanding how to develop that level of mental toughness. How did you do it? How can anyone do it?

Chris: Yeah, I think you have to keep pushing past the barriers, pushing past the doubt. When I was training in the summers preparing for the season, you get a chip on your shoulder. Only one team can win and of the 19 seasons I played I won one year. And in that year, you're pushing yourself like you got a target on your back. In the years before and after that, it was, all right I want to get back to that and what do I need to do and all I know is that this opponent is probably pushing himself on the bike or running or what have you. I need to push myself. Okay, I'm tired Well, so what? Push harder, get past that point of being comfortable and get into the uncomfortable and really push. For yourself, how badly do you want it? Is your opponent pushing themselves too? How bad do they want it? You need to want it more than them. And just always using these little triggers and whether it's one rung up the ladder, etc, just using metrics to push yourself, alright, I did five yesterday, I need to do at least six and then just pushing past that barrier of, I can't do it or I quit or whatever your verbiage is, pushing past that, and really asking yourself each and every day, how bad do you want it? How bad do you want success, and then mentally getting past those hurdles of, I'm too tired, I quit. It's too hard. It's really just a matter of challenging yourself each and every time those phrases come into your head and pushing past them. And the more you do that, it's like muscle memory. The more you do that, the more often or not, the moments when you do have that self doubt, or have those thoughts come into your head, the immediate next thought is not going to happen. I'm going to do the next thing. I'm pushing myself for one more time. And so it's just really the more you do it muscle memory, the more susceptible you are to succeed.

Adam: Any tips on how to motivate others? You gave a lot of great insights, particularly around how to motivate yourself on days you may not necessarily feel motivated. But in your career, I would imagine you played with a lot of teammates who were not necessarily as self-motivated as you are one of the things that allowed you to become one of the all time greats. It’s this desire, the desire to be one of the greats. But what do you do when you're around others who don't necessarily have that desire? How do you get the best out of them?

Chris: I think understanding what motivates people is directly correlated to how to motivate people and getting an understanding of what that is, as I said earlier, no two people are alike, and getting a really good understanding of who they are, what they're all about, what pushes them, what scares them. And then dig a little bit deeper and get to know them on a more personal level to really peel back the onion layers to see what a little trial and error to see what's going to push them, drive them. And then from that, you'll figure out how you can motivate them and then how to continue challenging them.

Adam: Yeah, Chris, I love that. Something that we hear a lot is the importance of the Golden Rule. Treat people the way that you want to be treated. And as a leader, I think that the Golden Rule can lead you astray. I don't believe in it at all. When it comes to leadership, leaders need to follow the platinum rule, which is to treat others the way that they want to be treated. To your point, we're all wired differently. What may work for the person to your left could not work at all for the person to your right. And as a leader, it's about taking the time to understand how each person operates. And if you do that, you're going to be ahead of the game.

Chris: Absolutely. I don't think people really dive too much into that concept. And it's very true. I didn't like people back patting me saying how good I was, yeah you did great. Just like I didn't like them telling me I screwed up. I have, you immediately know you screwed up. I don't need people telling me what I did right or what I did wrong, I've got a good understanding. And then it's a matter of myself learning how I need to fix it, how not to make the same mistake, how to develop and get better at something. And then other people as you said, maybe not necessarily yell at them, but be very critical. Be a little harder on them, to push them and force them into their uncomfortable zone to want to strive to be better.

Adam: Chris, you played on a lot of winning teams, you played on a lot of losing teams. You were a big part of winning cultures. You are part of losing cultures. In your experience, what differentiates winning teams from losing teams winning cultures, from losing cultures, and how can leaders shift losing cultures into winning cultures?

Chris: I think leaders have to understand that everything starts at the top. Culture, tradition, winning, excellence, it all starts at the top and it funnels down. It never starts at the bottom and funnels up. It doesn't work that way. And so you get what you put into it. You hear all the time all they need to change your culture. Well, how do they change a culture? Let’s use a professional sports team as a model. It starts with the owner. Is he a good owner? Is he or she a good owner? Do they know what they're doing? Are they owning? Are they trying to be the GM? Are they trying to be the coach? Are they trying to be the player? It always is as stupid as it sounds, owners own, managers manage, coaches coach, players play. And when people get out of their lane, as it relates to that dysfunction happens in an organization. And so at the top, the owner sets the tone, and provides the information to the managers, the managers go and execute, get the coaches, the coaches then execute and get the players and they have to execute. It doesn't matter whether it's what business it is sports, paper, clips, whiskey, whatever, it doesn't matter. It's all the same. And it all functions exactly the same.

Adam: Looking back, are there examples that you think of today, where you say, this was a great culture? We did this extremely well. This was a terrible culture, we did this extremely poorly. And here's why.

Chris: Yeah, I would say I've been a part of some great cultures, and winning traditions. And I've been a part of a few poorly run organizations, and the tradition was non-existent. And having early in my career, seen the latter and then later in my career, seen the former, you're able to really get a really good understanding of what works, what doesn't, why was it successful, you get passionate ownership, that then brings in good people who then bring in good people who then do their jobs. And you can see how the organizational structure works, and why it works. And you get people that are able to properly communicate the vision, and why things are done a certain way. There's communication across the board. And as I got further into my career, and now into my business career, that's how I look at a successful company or business, the good and the bad, and try to emulate exactly how the highest of high end operations run and operate now with the businesses that I'm a part of.

Adam: One of the businesses that you're a part of, The JRNY, whiskey startup. What are the best lessons that you've learned as an entrepreneur?

Chris: Patience. In sports, everything's right there in front of you, you can make a difference immediately. If you lose the game, you got a game the next night or the night after that, on and on and on, you're able to get back to the well. In business, when governments are involved and legal bodies and all the rest of that you have to be very, very patient, understand the process, understand the political side of things, the business side of things, and really just make sure you're prepared and you have all your ducks in a row. But also, again, going back to the organizational structure that we just talked about, what specifically is my role? What do I need to do for this to be successful? Go out and execute it. And then from there, ask, does anybody need anything else for me? Do you need me to help you with XYZ? And in doing that, I think you're allowing everybody the opportunity to feel a part of it, to do their roles and jobs to the best of their ability, everyone to learn from one another. It's a collaboration that allows everybody to build the tradition to build the culture in a way that everybody feels like they're a part of it, and thus, the business will hopefully follow suit.

Adam: You know, it's interesting, Chris, I've done interviews with hundreds of the most successful leaders across all disciplines. And when I asked about the key characteristics of the most successful leaders, one that rarely comes up if ever, is patience. And that was the first thing you brought up when I asked you about the list. As you've learned, as an entrepreneur, and it's a really important point for listeners to take in, whether you're leading your own business, whether you're leading in any context, a lot of this conversation has been within the context of sports. And some of the very worst leaders in sports are the ones with the least amount of patience. You trade a player too early, you bench a player when the player does something, and you should keep the player on the floor, because you're impatient. Having patience is essential in sports, in business and in life.

Chris: I couldn't agree more. It is something that I still work on. You made a great analogy to sports and in showing patients and not trading players too soon. How many times have we seen that, in sports where a young player has traded before they have an opportunity to develop? Before they're given a chance to develop, before they're given an opportunity to excel and succeed. And for me, it's been a great and valuable learning lesson to sometimes sit back and let things unfold, let things play out having an understanding of how they might play out, and then just seeing Okay, the more times you do that, the more times you're going to be able to have an understanding of how it will play out. But also, you're still going to be sitting there and doing your due diligence, having an understanding of ‘Okay, what if this doesn't work out? Where do I go? A, B, and C.’ And so for me, it's been invaluable as a life lesson just from my sports career to now business career to really sit back and be prepared for what may come but it certainly has provided me a lot of opportunity.

Adam: Chris, you've enjoyed enormous success over the course of your career. What was the toughest moment? The biggest challenge that you faced? The hardest moment? How did you navigate that moment? And what did you learn from that experience?

Chris: I would say when I was traded from Hartford to St. Louis, not having an understanding of how popular Brendan Shanahan was here in the city of St. Louis. And, as I would soon come to find out, was a fan favorite and was overtaking Brett Hall as the most popular Blue, on and on and on. And for pretty much the majority of that first season I was booed relentlessly on home ice, which seems a little counterintuitive now. But I was booed for the bulk of my first year here in St. Louis, and really struggled mentally with getting past the boos and the hatred and the commentary, media fans, some coaches. And I think having gone through that adversity has only made me a better person, player, business owner, to get it and understanding of a what I endured, how I got over it, the mental toughness that we talked about earlier, how I needed to instill more mental toughness to block out what happened and then to get back to playing the game the way that I knew how to play it. And not being so gun shy to make a mistake because of the boos and all the things that were going on around me. And so once I was able to just lock all that out, like Billy Chapel in the movie For the Love of the Game, clear the mechanism and just play the game and just let it happen. I was able to gain a lot more success on the ice, which then translated to, obviously off the ice and having gone through that. It really helped mold the type of player that I was, the type of person I was. And now when I run into various obstacles, I'm like, well, it's nothing like that. It certainly isn't at the ripe age of 20. When I got here to St. Louis, that could have broken me, it didn't. And now you'll look back and like alright, nothing is going to be as hard as that was when a whole city hated your guts. For no particular reason other than you got traded for their favorite. Well, there's lots of things in life and hurdles that we encounter, but certainly that one helped really shape who I am, what I'm all about, and how I react to certain situations now.

Adam: And it really speaks to what we talked about right at the beginning of the conversation. There is no linear path to success. It's how you respond, understanding that there are going to be highs there are going to be lows. How do you bounce back from those lows? How do you react to those lows? How do you understand those lows? Are they terminal? Or are they learning experiences?

Chris: Yeah, no, absolutely. Failure in sports, business, life. Failures happen virtually every day. How will we accept them, respond to them, and use them as motivation, or as life lessons, really speaks to who we are and what we're all about. And as I look at my kids, and I'm like, they need to fail, they need to feel what failure feels like, on any number of levels, some small, some big to get an understanding of what life's gonna be like on the other side. When they're growing up, and they're doing their thing. They have to have that lesson to fall back on that. Oh, here's how we responded, did it work? Did it not work? Okay, well, how do I need to respond next time. And so, as I look back on mistakes that I've made in life in business, and you know, in sports, you just add it to the Rolodex and keep learning from everything that we do.

Adam: You also mentioned For the Love of the Game, a very underrated movie.

Chris: Very much. So one of my all time favorites. There's so many great lessons in that movie that life, obviously sports but more importantly about life and the unique path that we all take.

Adam: What's the best sports movie of all time?

Chris: It depends. Slap Shot was one of my favorites growing up. Any Given Sunday was a great football movie. It depends on the type of messaging you're trying to get across to the person watching. But there's obviously all kinds of great sports movies out there. The Program, football movie about a quarterback who's up for the Heisman and just things that can happen in the blink of an eye and how pressure situations and pressure can get to people, and then how they respond and what they use to cope.

Adam: Chris, what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Chris: Don't be afraid to fail. Success is not a straight line. We see that all the time with some of the greatest business people of all time, and how many times they tried something and failed. And then something clicked and everybody calls them overnight successes, and they never are. There's always ups and downs along the way. I think people have to realize, a lot of times people don't see or think they're far away when they're one or two steps away from success. And they don't understand how close they are, how much work they've put in to be successful and quitting should never be an option. And failure is just a step along the way. It's part of the process. We all fail in all walks of life at any moment in time. There's always failures, a part of that line up to the top and it's a matter of figuring out how best to pat yourself on the back in the tough times and beat yourself up in the good times to keep pushing forward.

Adam: Chris, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being part of Thirty Minute Mentors.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally-recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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