I recently interviewed Chris Tomlin on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a Grammy Award winner and one of the most successful artists in his genre. Chris Tomlin is responsible for 16 number one singles on the radio. More than 9 million albums sold, and is the winner of three Billboard Music Awards. 21 double arts and is a two time BMI Songwriter of the Year recipient Chris, thank you for joining us.

Chris: Hey, thank you. Great to be with you. Appreciate it.

Adam: Great to have you on, Chris. Literally, every single one of your concerts sells out. You're one of the few artists in history to surpass a billion digital streams. How did you get here? What are the key experiences and lessons from early on in your journey that helped shape the trajectory of your career and your success?

Chris: Oh, man, I appreciate that. That's an amazing, amazing intro there. How did I get here? I would say really, it has been a lot of a lot of small steps I think along the way and just being faithful to the small steps of where this more this music is taking me I never dreamed that it would do this and it's in it in the music has gone where it's gone. I would say that a big part of what has happened is kind of like in the Malcom Gladwell book Outliers when he was just talking about- I resonate with that a lot because I started from a young kid. I was writing songs, and was really way more interested in people singing with me than I was entertaining people and singing songs, people listen to, is what I mean. But that would be in church. Growing up in church I really loved it and when people, even in my youth group, when I was like in high school, I'd love to sing, I love to play songs for people sing along with and I did not know that God was kind of putting this gift in me to lead worship or lead people to worship; to give people a voice to worship Him. And that's what I select. But that's why I think staying true to that all these years has led to all these things because I've really never wavered from that one thing of trying to write songs and help people sing and the I brought up the Gladwell book is because I was at a time when there was this explosion in the church around the world this new music. Of these simple courses to stay and I was right in line with that, those early days and of this new movement that was going across the church and these worship songs and I wasn't, you know, I wasn't thinking it was going to be a career or anything. I was going to college. I thought I was gonna be in sports medicine some way which is crazy looking back now but all these doors were opening up at the same time I was in college. I was playing music around Texas and my song started really taking off in churches in a grassroots way. There were no publishers, I had no websites, there was nothing like that. It was just a grassroots thing that was happening in churches, and I felt like that for a long time. And I still feel this to some degree but I felt for a long time I was kind of chasing my songs around the country and chasing my songs around Texas for a while. Then they started going outside of Texas and into the other areas and then around the world and the songs just started going around the church and no one really knew knew who I was at all but I they the song started find their way into people's lives and a lot of these songs that become things that people just sing, there become their songs a god kind of you know, kind of in the fabric of church and that's to me that's probably what I'm most proud of and most grateful for. When you can name awards, you can name a billion streams and whatever billboards, Grammys, whatever, that's really amazing. But I think that songs have made their way into people's lives, and are going to stay. Maybe there's a couple songs that would be around long after I'm around and that is a privilege and an incredible thing. And I think I love when I get to play music live and talk to people. Probably the comment I love the most is man, we sing all these songs at our church. And that's what I love because that means the songs have gone past me in a way that they're not attached. They're not really dependent on me to sing them and they're attached to me but in some ways they've just become people songs that they sing and I think it’s a surprise to anybody that I've gotten to be a part of that but I’m grateful to God and I know that that's been God's plan and his touch on it in and his favor on it. And that goes beyond just hard work and beyond good songs. There's something intangible about, you know, God's touch on it on these songs around the world and the way they've and the way it's all happened.

Adam: Chris, you made reference to the Gladwell book Outliers, which I highly recommend to listeners if you haven't read it. And one of the things Malcolm Gladwell talks about is the 10,000 hour rule and the importance of really dedicating time, energy, and focus into an area where you can become an expert. I want to ask you a little bit more about that. What did you do along the way to the top that others didn't do? And what sacrifices do you believe are necessary to make it to the top whether it's in music or in any other profession?

Chris: I think I've stayed really true to one thing, and that is writing songs that are the end and working on the songwriting and because to me writing songs that are very, very singable and congregational and I know that other people haven't done that, but I've really stayed, trying to stay true to that and think in my mind, you know, I'm not trying to make my music I'm really thinking with other people in mind. I'm thinking with the average person out there who has no rhythm, who can't clap onto a board. Who hasn't carried a tune in a bucket, whatever. He's not thinking about music every day, who just is walking into their church or walking into somewhere and just wants to express their heart in a way. And that's the way to express their faith. And I'm thinking those of mine had to write a simple song. And I think the thing that I've done is, you know, it's been 20 over almost 20, 25 years. Now for me, all of these small steps along the way, it is 10,000 hours- at this point about 30 or 40,000 hours honestly. Nothing for me has come overnight at all, it has been a long process of playing. I mean, I mean, starting out, you know, just with a borrowed guitar and a borrowed keyboard and a drum machine and a really, really bad one man show into building another guitar player into building a band into into sacrificing a lot of personal life because of how much travel and going in on whatever opportunities would come my way and playing concerts in the early days to six people that would show up to I can tell you stories of not just going and no one coming and thinking, you know, I'm gonna keep going with this even though it's doesn't seem to be working and no one really cares right now. If opportunities keep coming, I'm gonna keep doing it. And just feeling like this was something that was, you know, something that was more than something I wanted to do. But I felt a real calling in my life to do it in the sense of that it was something that was very compelling. It was compelling. It was something that I could not do early on in my life when things started happening, an opportunity started coming. I'm a guy who grew up in a really small town in East Texas called Grand Saline with about 2,000 people. There was a guy in my church there, that was someone I really looked up to. And I remember him telling me Chris, if you can do anything else in life, do it, because music is so hard. And it's so unpredictable. You don't know where it's going. But if you can't, if this is the only thing you can do, then you know, you're in the right place. And for me, I tried to do other things. I was trying to do other things, and it just kept bringing me back to that guitar. And sitting at the piano, and writing these songs and connecting with people. I've never felt like I was the best singer or the best guitar player in any way. Or maybe even the best songwriter, but I do feel I've always felt like I've had a unique ability to connect with people with my songs, and their simple songs, but I think that they resonated with people and people's lives.

Adam: What are the most significant challenges and setbacks that you faced before you made it and how are you able to push past them? And what advice do you have for listeners on how to overcome whatever obstacles they may be facing?

Chris: I think the challenges are just knowing that I'm in uncharted territory. No one in my family has ever done this. I'm breaking new ground in my world. I didn't have any of the EDA connections that I felt like I needed to have. I had no connections in the music business or anything like that. But think how I overcame that is I was never thinking of it as I want to be in the music business and I want to do this. This was something that I felt like God had me do honestly, and that this was something that I was that I felt led to do and so I wasn't looking for this end goal of making it so there was no making it in my mind. I was already making it just by doing it. If it stayed very small, then that's what it was. But then when more opportunities started coming the biggest obstacles probably were just the amount of just time that it has taken to do this. I think it's easy to look at someone that, you know, has been able to do what I've been able to do and think, gosh, I want to do that and I need to write these kind of songs, but I don't know if anybody- I don't know how many people want to think about the 25 years of it, especially, there’s probably a decade of literally wondering how how is this gonna work and how would I ever have a family? How would I ever have finances to have a family out of this kind of work and along the way so I think the biggest thing for me though, is that I never went into it with like, okay, I've got to, quote, unquote “make it” sort of, so to speak. I was already doing what I felt so called and led to do. And so I was already very fulfilled. And if it never got any bigger than it got, honestly, that would have been okay.

Adam: Chris, I love that. And I think that that's so relevant for listeners and no matter what they're pursuing. If you're living your passion, if whatever you're doing in life is something that you're deeply passionate about, that makes all the difference whether you're attaining the traditional markers of success or not you're gonna be feeling it and you're gonna be living and breathing it and Chris you're a great example that.

Chris: Yeah, I was just this, you know, honestly, I’m just as happy as I was 20 years ago, playing music as I am now. I mean the crowds have gotten bigger. But yeah, there's no difference in the way I’ve felt inside, honestly, because I was doing what I was passionate about and loved it.

Adam: What was the highest pressure performance of your career? And how did you manage pressure in that big moment? And what advice do you have on how to perform under pressure?

Chris: A high pressure performance? Oh my goodness, I can tell you, I feel the pressure at a live show. I think that's the biggest thing about performing is that people have come, especially, I think about the time I played, we played Madison Square Garden for the first time. And then just recently, the Hollywood Bowl, these big markers, like these big places where you have these massive places and you have 15 to 20,000 people showing up and they've come because they, for some reason your music meant something to them. So you've put a lot of pressure on yourself that, wow, these people have come to get something and I would honestly, there's been so many times where I've felt just so overwhelmed by it. I have just not wanted to. I've not wanted to go on that stage because, you know, I have just, I don't know, I just feel like, man, they're looking at me and they bought this ticket price and you feel all the pressure of that. And then I heard Taylor Swift say this, and I thought this was amazing. And she said, I mean, we're in. It was a really freeing thing. I think it was an interview of our heart, her sight that she said that. We went out and she said, when I learned that the people out in the crowd aren't there to judge me but they're just there to enjoy it. Because they're they bought a ticket to enjoy it and to it. She said that and it really freed me up. And when I think about that, and I think about playing these concerts, especially these ones where it just feels a little bit more heightened in a way because they're such big venues and famous venues and it's these all this press around it or whatever, you know, I always try to go back to that and to say, you know what? People are here to enjoy each other. And I think sometimes we can, I think,  as a performer, maybe you feel like you're judged because people are looking at you. But when you realize man, we're here to enjoy each other and to be free like that, gosh, that is so fun to me, honestly. And man, I get in a better place. And then also, if I could speak on from the spiritual side of it is a big part of it for me because I feel a responsibility. You know that I'm not there to entertain people. Honestly, I don't think about it that way. I feel like my job and my role and what I've been called to do and led to do is help people connect to God itself. Feel a bigger responsibility in that. So that can be a weight sometimes, but then I come back to the same thing of like, wait a minute, I didn't get here to this place because of my great talent or something. I mean, I've really felt like, you know, God gave me these songs and he's made this way for me and that's the same or the same spirit and same heart that's got me to this place is going to be the same spirit and same heart that that makes this tonight feel so powerful to people and so sometimes I put a little too much pressure on myself to make things happen and I don't really have to do that. I feel like at some point, I have to just drop back and say you know what? This wasn't just all about me getting here and so the same spirit that got me here, the same spirit is gonna connect with people tonight, and the same spirit that put us all here in this room together. And that takes a weight off and takes the pressure off that it's not on me and I can understand why. But artists and performers, you know, their lives can unravel in some ways because the pressures feels really, really overwhelming at times, but you can get in that place and just realize, man, we're all just people; people who came here to, to enjoy the night, to enjoy each other and that gets me in a good place.

Adam: Chris, I love your perspective. I love your honesty and I love the way that you approach high pressure performances and actually reminds me of an interview I did a little bit earlier on the podcast with Terrelle Davis the Great Hall of Fame running back. And I asked him about how he managed the high pressure performance of the Super Bowl against the Green Bay Packers. And it was John Elway and his first Super Bowl that he won and he had a bad migraine. And what he told me was pretty similar to what you expressed, which was that it was really just a matter of coming to the perspective that you're out there to perform and you're out there to do what you love to do. You're out there to do what you do day in and day out. This is the same thing you do when the lights are off. Now the lights are on. The stage is a little bit bigger. It's the Super Bowl and it's not your backyard. But if the rules are the same, the game is the same and you just got to go out there and execute and I'm a big baseball fan. I think about Mike Trout and when you watch Mike Trout play. It doesn't matter if it's the third inning or the ninth inning. He's always smiling. He's always having fun. And it's just a matter of going out there and enjoying the moment.

Chris: Yeah. And realizing people are there to enjoy it with you. And not, you know, especially the concert- they bought a ticket. They're there because they bought a ticket with your name on it. Right. So why do you honestly think oh, my gosh, people are gonna hate me when I walk out there. That's a funny thing that you think about that sometimes. But you're like, no, these people, they're with you. And let's just do this. Let's have an amazing night together.

Adam: And Chris, that's awesome. Now, you've reached the pinnacle of success in your genre. But your most recent album, Chris Tomlin and Friends, is a crossover. And I've asked previous guests for their best advice on how to push your comfort zone. But you're literally pushing your comfort zone as we speak. What drove you to do a crossover and push your comfort zone and what advice do you have for listeners on when and how to push your comfort zone?

Chris: Yeah, great that this record Chris Tomlin and Friends is a great surprise. You know, for my career, probably my music and I would tell the listeners I think looking for those surprises that come along that you don't see coming. And that's an incredible way to go as an indicator. This is a moment to push the comfort zone because maybe you weren't looking for it. And I wasn't looking for this to do this record. We just happened out of relationships over this past year. And I thought, man, something's happening here. And something in these relationships that I wasn't looking for and that this was not like record labels trying to say oh, I know what happened with that let's combine the country music genre and the Christian music genre together. Let's put this together with some of the biggest artists on both and that would be really cool. I mean, they probably wanted to do that. But that didn't happen, it just came out of a friendship and relationship and this whole record started being born. That has been a gift. Like I said, just an incredible breath of fresh air. This is my 13th or 14th record now, you know. Do something that's so left turn, and so not what I anything else I've done in my previous music and was out of the comfort zone, the sense of like- I had lots of thoughts of how people are going to receive this, you know? What are people going to think- that this is not the brand, quote, unquote, that I have created of music that people come to expect of my music. But this was something that was undeniable. And it was something, like, I think this is going to open up new doors that have never been open to maybe hearing my music before an audience that would have never listened to any of my songs before. And why would I not? If that door is not opening? That door doesn't open? Why would I not? Especially, you know, when it comes to even the faith side of things. Okay, so this isn't my crowd. This is the crowd that usually wouldn't be thinking, okay, I want to hear some songs of God or things like that, but like the opportunity comes to speak into that and to share my faith with people that may or may not be looking for it. What an incredible opportunity. And why wouldn't I do that? To me this is what it's all about is trying to be alive and to share my faith wherever it can and so that's been incredibly out of my comfort zone because I've been robbed of the credit, you know of, like, what are you doing? Who do you know, this is not- why are you partnering with these people? Don't you know- what are some of the things they sing about and talk about and so why are you partnering with them and that kind of thing, and I knew that would happen. But I also knew that there was an incredible opportunity to pioneer. I've always heard it said, if you want to pioneer things you don't want to really be the martyr. So out from that you're just killed for it. But pioneering is an opportunity to say, you know, I want to walk into some new lands here and always forge away new opportunities. And this came to me. I think the key to me was when it wasn't anything I was looking for, or really striving or trying to do. You can try all day to knock those doors down and they just don't happen. You try all day to open the doors into different genres, into different music and artists. And let's combine. The fact that this album exists and that there's that many record labels involved is- if you know anything about the record business it is a true like parting of the Red Sea here because we made the record without really telling the labels what we were doing with the artists. We were just as friends making these demos. And we thought, gosh, this is powerful. Man, we should put this out. And then we had to go through the process of telling the labels and letting them get involved in how they were going to divide this all up. You can imagine the lawyers and all this and that. It happens so seamlessly, easily. I knew that we were onto something and I knew we're breaking ground. And I think that this has been a true collaboration on every level from not just the music, but from the record label side of the publishing side and everybody's collaborating, it’s insane. Okay, this is something that none of us saw coming but it's been a stretching thing. And that's the key to me is, like, I think when I look back, I wasn't striving or trying to do it and that's why I felt like, okay, I'm in the right place. A better way of saying it is I feel like there's been this river that is flowing, and you just get in that current. And then you start going and it doesn’t go where you think it was going. Oh gosh, it bends and goes this way. And now it's taking a different way. But the river is flowing, you're in the current, but it's going to take you in different places. And you just got to be in the current. That's where I felt like this album, as it's really been in a different current, in a different river than I've ever been in and I've really enjoyed it. And it's given me a lot of life and a lot of excitement about music all these years later.

Adam: Chris, I think that's great, a great perspective. And I think that's great advice for our listeners, even if you have nothing to do with the world of music, because you could be on whatever career trajectory you're on. And something happens, a pandemic hits and the industry you're in no longer exists, the current all of a sudden shifts, and you need to shift as well. So it's all about being flexible. It's all about being nimble. It's all about going where the opportunities take you and I love your perspective. And I love the way that you framed it.

Chris: Yeah, if I could say one of the things that is just like- this was something that I think whatever position you're in, whatever career you're in, it's that moment of like, whoa, I've never done it like this. This is not how I've done it. It's not what I've thought I've created, and to be able to take them, take the moment to step out and go, okay, let's just get in the current and see where it goes. That’s a risk. And that's one more ticket.

Adam: I love that. Can you describe your creative process? And in your experience, how can leaders foster an environment that stimulates creativity?

Chris: Hmm, it's got to be quiet. That's the biggest thing for me to begin the creative process. I have to be quiet and have to quiet my mind and it doesn't always come which is busying yourself. And that's the biggest thing and I think the biggest distraction there's so much distraction ando much noise and so is quieting my mind is important. And then in collaboration I would say quiet in collaboration. So for me that's the best. Once I get in that place of quiet and things come, ideas come from me which would be songs and melodies. That takes being by yourself. But after that it's collaboration and for me that's been the big success is finding the people that I can that really work with me in collaboration and whether that's what's up in the tech world or wherever, whatever world you're in- the music world. For me, it's getting with those friends that I always go back to and saying, okay, I have you put in your calendar. I always say it's not real unless it's in my calendar. I mean, I can say all day I'm going to write songs but for me, I have to put it down. I like tasks very much. So I want to put it down; I'm going to do it this, you know, I'm going to get together with my friends on this day, at this time. Let's work and we get together in a circle and come with our ideas, our thoughts, and then we make each other better and make the songs better and that collaboration always happens in twos or threes, for me. Get more people in the room than that and it gets a little bit not as creative. But put two or three people in a room and we just have our guitars and we pray and we say, man, what do we have and that comes after, but that kind of being quiet first and then collaboration in all things whether it be the touring side of things, or having great team around me, you know, with management and the label and all that and just collaboration in one of the creative ways. What's a creative way that we can connect, make our tours better, make the night better, make it stronger and all those collaborative efforts, come with it with great teams. And you can't do anything worthwhile alone. Doing anything that has been a great success and has taken a great team to do it. And it is not done by yourself. And the idea might start by yourself, but it takes a great team to me to make it work. And that's what I found.

Adam: Very well said, Chris, you and your wife started a foundation that focuses on trying to help vulnerable youth. As someone who thinks deeply about how to make things better for the next generation, what is your best advice on the topic of mentorship? How can anyone find a great mentor? And how can anyone become a great mentor?

Chris: Yeah. I appreciate you saying that. I think about the mentors in my life and where would I be without them. Everybody needs somebody to believe in them. That's the key. That's the key to all this. At some point someone has come along and they have to feel that. So they believed in me, but it's not just me, by myself out here, but there's so much power in that. When that happened for me and someone came on and really spoke into me and said, I believe the whole world's gonna sing your song. This is before I had any song. This is before I wrote. I'd written maybe a couple songs in my life. This friend came to me named James and said, I think the whole world can sing your song. And I thought, what? No, I could not believe that. I was 18 years old. But I've never forgotten that. I've never forgotten that moment of him looking at me and saying that. It was a marking moment in my life. And I thought wow, somebody believes in me and believes in my songs. I've never had anybody really speak that way to me before. And now to do that myself- and now I'm in a place where I can speak those powerful words to others. For me, it's in the music right? That's how I can tours through music. And so much so I can define that person, I feel like they've got that they got that something special and to speak into them and to say, you know, I want to use whatever influence I have to help you and to, but also in to help open doors for you, which is important is helping open doors for the next, you know, the next generation coming along. But also, you know, to really speak and believe in them. I think that's what mentorship is. It’s believing in someone and being believed in. And if you can do that, what, that's such a great gift to someone.

Adam: Chris, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for joining us.

Chris: My pleasure, man. Thanks for having me.