Your Stories Aren’t the Truth: Interview with Author Chuck Wisner

I recently went one on one with Chuck Wisner. Chuck is the author of the new book The Art of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact.

Adam: Thanks again for taking the time to share your advice. First things first: I am sure readers would love to learn more about you. How did you get here? What experiences, failures, setbacks, or challenges have been most instrumental to your growth?

Chuck: Thanks for inviting me!

Thirty years ago, I was a partner in an architectural firm in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and one of the partners had a drinking problem that was affecting our employees and clients. Stumped, we hired a consultant—it took three tries to find a great one—to help us navigate the consequences of his behavior. 

The consultant, Linda Reid, was masterful in helping us understand the problem and create a new future. Her guidance seemed like magic to me. As we worked together, we became fast friends, and her expertise in language and conversations aligned with my lifelong interests in psychology, philosophy, and spirituality. My head and heart were drawn to her work. 

After four years of studying the ontology of language and mediation, I said a loving farewell to architecture and enthusiastically started a new career. Thanks to many blessings and a bit of luck, a few months later Fred Kofman and Lesley Pollitt at MIT’s Center for Organizational Learning invited me to work with them as a coach in a leadership transformation program. I was off and running. My studies and that career change were life-changing.

But along the way, I was diagnosed with chronic lymphocytic leukemia. This was a wake-up call that put many things, like this book, on hold. It took some time for my family and me to find our way through the diagnosis and to discover ways to manage it. I’m a survivor, which carries its own amazing life lessons.

Adam: What do you hope readers take away from your new book?

Chuck: I wrote this book to share the lessons I learned from studying language and conversations. After years of consulting, it dawned on me that as powerful and life-altering as the tools and practices were, they weren’t easily accessible.

The book is structured around four archetypal conversations: storytelling, collaborative, creative, and commitment conversations. These conversations were a perfect way to organize the many concepts and practices that served me so well. The tools and concepts give the reader insights into themselves, others, and their relationships at work and at home so the reader can understand and engage in conversations more successfully.

Adam: What are the keys to effectively communicating?

Chuck: That’s a big question, and I think the answer starts with awareness. Like it or not, the ways we talk, listen, and interact are programmed and patterned. The book dissects conversations and examines their DNA. We start by paying attention to our conversational patterns and trying on new ways of thinking and interacting. I want readers to realize that we are the common denominator, no matter what conversation we’re in or with whom.

Becoming aware of our patterns and learning better ways to interact is transformational. Understanding the four conversations is a good place to start learning how to pay attention to conversations anew. I hope readers will begin asking themselves questions like, When am I hooked on my story? What conversations trigger me? Why is it so hard to hear what others are saying? Why are others getting defensive?

As we attune to the subtleties of our thinking, emotions, and behaviors, we will become better conversationalists.

Adam: What can anyone do to become a better communicator?

Chuck: A significant factor in better communication is checking our assumptions, judgments, and firmly held opinions. The general pattern in conversation is for us to lock in our position. In dialogue, it’s natural and easy to get lost in our heads and to focus on our answer or reaction. When we’re in lockdown mode, our minds close. We not only defend our position, but also we actively attempt to disprove others. Then egos, emotional triggers, defensiveness, and negativity create even more friction in the conversation. 

The simple but hard-to-do change is to learn how to hold our opinions and judgments more lightly. Rather than entering a conversation with a balled fist, enter with an open hand (exhibiting some vulnerabilities) so you can share the thoughts and reasons behind your judgment. And when we present our position with an open hand, a miraculous thing happens: our ability to listen to and absorb others’ perspective increases. And with a dose of self-reflection and curiosity, we can humbly engage in mutual-learning conversations that promote collaboration and creativity.

Adam: What do you believe are the defining qualities of an effective leader?

Chuck: The most effective leaders I’ve worked with have three qualities:

1. Clarity of Vision/Mission

Too often, leaders focus on metrics, deadlines, politics, or managing their careers. A clear vision/mission isn’t hanging a few posters on the wall. It’s the larger purpose beyond the daily work, and it can unite and excite teams. 

Recently a company I’ve worked with in the past had a CEO change, which shifted the company’s focus toward metrics for financial success. The former CEO’s vision of excellence and engagement slowly dissolved.

The Marine term “commander’s intent” is far from perfect, but it’s a good model to consider. A commander’s intent demonstrates how a clear mission allows subordinates to judge whether a decision or an action aligns with and supports the mission.

2. High Standards

In business, standards are ubiquitous. Leaders have to establish what great work looks like, who determines when a job is well done, and how we measure success.

These aren’t trivial matters. Standards and measures of success can create havoc and confusion when they hide in the background of our conversations. If a leader says something like, “Let’s get this project moving with deadlines, budgets, and staffing,” every team member might walk away from that request with differing ideas of what an excellent result would look like.

An effective leader can’t assume that their standard is understood. What’s in my head must be in yours—that’s a typical leadership trap. Most of the time, a leader has more information and contextual knowledge than their direct reports. A good leader has to take the time to bring context, standards, and measures of success to the forefront of their conversations in order to ensure a project or team’s success.

3. Humility

The easiest trap for successful leaders in corporate hierarchical structures to fall into is the expectation that they have all the answers. From the elementary schoolroom to the board room, we’re rewarded for having the answers. Expertise and knowledge are undoubtedly essential, but no senior-level leader can have all the answers. There’s simply too much complexity in the systems they navigate.

Humility is the antidote to this common ego trap. Leaders have the responsibility and the burden of accountability, and for that reason alone, they can’t afford to be a know-it-all. Effective leaders know they don’t have all the answers and cop to it, which creates a culture of psychological safety for their team. A humble leader reaps the benefits of their team of experts (and please note that humility should never connotate weakness). Listening, collaborating, and learning from all perspectives result in wiser decisions.

Adam: How can leaders and aspiring leaders take their leadership skills to the next level?

Begin by seeking advice on your current leadership patterns and styles. What’s your communication style? Does your team feel safe disagreeing with you? Remember that the security of the hierarchy can get very comfy. Direct reports can start to bend toward your preferences, ideas, and answers. Company cultures vary, but the power of a leader’s voice is hard to overcome in most hierarchies. 

I’ve worked with a few excellent leaders for more than a decade—not because they need a coach but because they want to stay on top of their game. They recognize the value of trusted advisors they can talk with about anything confidentially. “The CEO’s comment about my team was terrible. What the hell? Let’s talk about how I can deal with it.”

Seek feedback from someone who doesn’t fear repercussions. Listen, reflect, and take small steps to change patterns that aren’t serving you.

Adam: What are your three best tips applicable to entrepreneurs, executives, and civic leaders?

Don’t lead with your opinions. 

On crucial issues, hold your opinions until you’ve heard from your team. Create a safe space where varying perspectives can surface so you and your team can learn from diverse thinking and ideas. Too often, leaders with strong positions speak up, and that’s the end of the conversation. In hierarchies, the leader’s voice has “the power of ten.” They might think they simply stated an opinion, but in highly hierarchical cultures, others unconsciously assign a lot of power to that opinion. Collaborative and creative conversations only happen in an environment where the leader’s voice isn’t the loudest in the room.

Ask more questions!

The tendency to have the answer and to be the most intelligent person in the room diminishes our ability to listen to others. The antidote is inquiry. Catch yourself when you’re advocating and defending your position. Practice holding back and asking questions to find out how others are thinking. Good questions evoke ideas and opinions that might not otherwise be spoken or heard.

Avoid the conversational bypass.

In my book, I have a chapter called “Conversational Bypass.” The commitment conversation is the place where the decisions get made and the action happens. We love our stories, and we’re often quick to state our opinion. Then we tend to jump into action, “Ok, that sounds good. Now let’s get to it!” That one-two process skips the collaborative and creative conversations—the two meatiest conversations of the four. 

Because we’re addicted to our position and anxious to get to it, we don’t take the time to hear multiple perspectives and to consider different solutions. The bypass is a recipe for making premature decisions, and the cost is far greater than the cost of taking time to purposefully talk through all four conversations.

Adam: What is the single best piece of advice you have ever received?

Chuck: Your stories aren’t the truth!

As a young man, I adopted a story that my grandfather told me: I wasn’t a big enough man. Young, impressionable, and naïve, I internalized his words. You can read the whole story in my book, but it doesn’t take much imagination to understand the story’s negative impact on my young psyche. When I finally busted the story, my life changed. 

Our stories consist primarily of opinions we have adopted from our culture and our families. We all have stories about ourselves and others. Some serve us well, but others don’t. Accepting that our stories are just stories and some a more substantial truth is the first step in learning to reframe, rethink, or bust them for good.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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