I recently interviewed Dan Harris on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is the weekend co host of Good Morning America and the number one New York Times bestselling author. Dan Harris has spent the past decade hosting Good Morning America and the past two decades at ABC News. Dan's best selling book 10% Happier was inspired by his on-air panic attack in front of millions of viewers around the country. And we're gonna dive into that. Dan, thank you so much for joining us.

Dan: Thanks for having me.

Adam: Dan, before we talk about your book and your well publicized panic attack and how you were able to turn lemons into lemonade, I wanted to ask you about the early days of your journey. What inspired you to pursue a career in broadcasting and how did you break into and rise within such a highly competitive business?

Dan: I don't have some really noble answer for that. I think that some ways I had TV news and the movies mixed up in my mind. And I, during college, did a mixture of internships at TV news outlets. And I also went to film school, just as I had a liberal arts education. But I took a semester and went to NYU film and realized when I went to film school that I actually wasn't very good at moviemaking. But I really did like the documentary courses I took there. And I really did like being an intern on TV news. And I just wanted to do something. I never had the best attention span, I wanted to do something that wasn't necessarily desk bound. And that also seemed somewhat glamorous, although TV news, as it turns out, lacks much of the glamour that people might assume it could have. And so right out of college I got a job for 5.50 an hour part time at a little station in Bangor, Maine, where I was behind the scenes. And eventually they put me on the air. And I stayed there for about a year. And then I just kept moving to, you know, larger and larger markets. I went to Portland, Maine, and then Boston and then ultimately got to ABC News, and have been there, as you said, for 20 years.

Adam: What do you attribute to your ability to rise within such a highly competitive industry and what advice do you have for people who are thinking about either trying to break into the business or trying to figure out how to advance within the world of broadcasting?

Dan: Look, some of it is working hard, and loving what I do, and then a lot of it is just luck. Not to get too woke on you, but you know, I think there are a lot of advantages, especially back, you know, before society started to wake up in many ways to many of the issues that we're wrestling with now, to being white male. And so well, that was never articulated to me directly. It's not so hard for me to look back of my career and think and reflect upon many of the advantages that that confers just by the accidents of my birth, having been raised in a, you know, upper middle class, intact, loving family was helpful as well and just gave me a lot of confidence and inner and outer resources others haven't gotten, you know? My education was paid for by my parents, etc, etc. So I think they imbued in me a work ethic and I saw my parents, both doctors, I saw how much they loved their job. And so for me, the idea of just throwing yourself into your work was not hard to wrap my head around. So I think it is the hard work, definitely, I will take some credit for but I also increasingly start to look at my career and realize how much luck or again, if you want to be a little college campus, how privilege played into it. In terms of my advice for other people. I mean, for years, I've always said to people that when you find something you love to do that you're passionate about it it's just a rocket fuel and it just makes the work that is involved in pursuing a career like this so much more doable, you know, it just shows up in the product and in your relationships at work. Although I've now started to hear some good counter arguments about this passion argument that I make, which is that sometimes there are many people who don't have, you know, the passion for what they do necessarily when they show up. But there's something about simply engaging meaningfully with meaningful work, that passion can be an emergent property or a byproduct of doing that. So, but I do think just having real interest in what you're doing is incredibly useful.

Adam: Dan, I think that that's great advice. Something that I tell audiences is, you first and foremost want to try to find something that you're good at. Secondly, you want to try to find something that you're passionate about, and whether it's something that you know, you're passionate about, or whether it's something that, like you said, you discover that you're passionate about. And number three; finding something that allows you to make a positive contribution to the lives of others. And if you can find all three of those things, you know, you found it and it doesn't feel like work.

Dan: Yeah, I agree with that. I really do. And that's what I was trying to get at- it doesn't feel like work. I mean, a lot of what I do, even though I am incredibly passionate about many of the tentacles of my current work repertoire, there are many days where it's a grind. But there are enough days where it's actually just incredibly pleasurable and meaningful that it helps me get through the grind.

Adam: Well, I'll ask you a question that I've asked other guests, which is, what do you do on the days that you don't feel like showing up for work? How do you motivate yourself on the days you don't feel motivated?

Dan: I want to say one thing that will be at a bit of an oblique angle from what you just asked. And then I'll then endeavor to answer the question, but I remember sending my mother, who again is a- she recently retired- phenomenally successful position, academic position, went on to be an editor at the New England Journal of Medicine. And I remember her talking about her dad who worked at the Yellow Pages, which didn't sound like a massive problem. I guess people listening to this now might not remember what the yellow pages were because they predate the internet. A super analog aspect of life for those of us who are a little bit older. But the yellow pages were these big books of red, yellow, and white pages and the yellow pages were these huge books of local businesses listed in alphabetical order. And then white pages were residents. They used to show up on your front door once or twice a year.

Adam: Dan, full disclosure, I am well acquainted with the yellow pages, because when I was a little kid, we used to use the yellow pages to find people to prank call. So yes, at least of that generation.

Dan: Yeah, I used to do the same thing. So anyway, her father, my grandfather worked with Yellow Pages, I don't think it was the most spiritually fulfilling work. And I think my mother had a few summers where she worked there, and were counted as just sitting there looking at the clock the whole day. And I remember her advising me that you know, you want a job, no matter what you do, there gonna be days where, you know, the grunt work isn't awesome. But you want to have a job where the grunt work, even the worst stuff you're doing, is at least somewhat enjoyable, and connected to a larger mission that is meaningful and pleasurable for you. So I think that's really, really good advice for people who are thinking about jumping in on a career, or wondering which career to jump in on. And so how do I keep myself motivated on days where I don't feel like showing up? One thing to say is, one thing I'm trying to get better at is that on Sundays, right, I don't feel like showing up, like, don't show up, as long as you're not like letting anybody down or I'm skipping a national news broadcast or something like that. But there are some days where you know what, you know, I think, to be honest, I work too much. I have a seven day workweek. And so one of the things that I increasingly think about is just playing hooky once in a while. But when it's non negotiable, it really goes back to what my mother said is, you know, can you remember that what you're doing, even if you don't feel like doing it, right, in that moment is connected to something that you do care about. That's so incredibly useful. 

Adam: That’s great advice. I always go back to the quote, which originated from Dr. J. Julius Erving, but I heard it from David Halberstam, my favorite writer of all time, and it's. “being a professional is doing what you love to do on the days you don't feel like doing it.” And that's exactly the advice that your mom gave you, which I think is great advice for listeners. I wanted to ask you about that moment, the big moment that really changed the trajectory of your career and the trajectory of your life. You're at the top of your profession. You're living your dream and the dream of countless others hosting Good Morning America. And one morning while you're on the air, you experience an extreme version of many people's worst nightmare; you have a panic attack not only in front of a public audience, but in front of a nationally televised audience. Man, can you describe that moment and how it ultimately took you on this journey of self discovery that led to a best selling book and completely shifted your perspective?

Dan: Yeah, it was one of those fortunate humiliations in that way. This was back in 2004. So a while ago, and at that point, I was reasonably young and yes, I was in my early 30’s. And I had spent a few the preceding years after 9/11. So this, again, was a panic attack. It was 2004. 9/11 2001. After 9/11, when I was like, just barely 30, I spent a bunch of time in war zones. Not really a thing I'd ever planned on doing as a correspondent. But after 9/11, really, life changed in many ways for journalists, and it was very exciting. And also, you know, a little bit perilous psychologically, and so that's the backdrop for what happened next, which was that I was on the air on a warm June morning in 2004. And I was anchoring the news updates. We don't have this job anymore, but it used to be back then it was done by a woman named Robin Roberts, who's now the main host of Good Morning America, one of them. And she used to come on at the top of every hour to read some headline on five or six headlines off of the teleprompter. And so I was filling in for her that morning. And I had done the job many times before. So I didn't have any reason to perceive what was about to happen, which was that I just kind of lost the ability to speak, I couldn't breathe, my lungs seized up, my palms were sweating, my mouth dried up. My heart was racing, I just was freaking out. And the more that my body freaked out, the more my mind freaked out, the more my mind freaked out, the more my body freaked out in return, it was a kind of a vicious cycle. And I had to do something I had never done before, which is quick, right in the middle of my, I got maybe two or three stories in and then I just squeaked out a back to you to the main hosts of the show, Diane Sawyer and Charlie Gibson. And after that, I went to a doctor, who is an expert in panic. And he asked me a bunch of questions, and one of them was do you do drugs? And I said, yes, sheepishly. Well, I explained that I had started to start to self medicate with cocaine after coming home from all that time in Warzones. And even though I wasn't doing that much in a while, I wasn't high on the air or anything like that, he pointed out that it was enough to artificially, sort of raise the level of adrenaline in my brain to trick change my brain chemistry and make it more likely for me to freak out. So yeah, after that I, you know, kind of cleaned my act up and got into seeing the shrink regularly. And it wasn't immediate that I discovered meditation, but several years into seeing the shrink. And also as a coincidence, I had been assigned to cover faith and spirituality by my mentor at the time, Peter Jennings. And I started to hear talk about meditation. And I started to look into it. And I saw that there was a lot of science that suggests that meditation is really good for you. And even though I had no interest in meditation, I was pretty skeptical, I really, you know, I was really compelled by the idea that we have this inner conversation, this voice in our head, this non stop sort of yammering inner narrator, that when we're unaware of that, of this sort of fact, of the human condition that we're just owned by it, it becomes like a malevolent puppeteer, our ego just constantly barking bad ideas into our brain, we just, again, when we don't see it, we just act out those thoughts like little dictators and the proposition of meditation, the promise of meditation is that you can start to have more self awareness so that you can kind of cut the strings of this puppeteer. And so I started to do it and it's made a really significant difference for me.

Adam: Can we dive a little bit deeper into the topic of meditation? What advice do you have for those who are not yet meditating on how they can more easily adopt the practice into their lives. And for those who are already meditating, how can they take their practices to the next level?

Dan: Yeah, so I actually wrote a follow up book, which is all about the sort of main obstacles to meditation. And I'll just pick three of them. One is the obstacle that I struggled with, which was just just thinking it's nonsense, you know, thinking is baloney. And so for those who are skeptical about whether meditation is, you know, of any utility, I would just point you, as I referenced earlier, to the science, which is what changed my mind, quite literally, and got me over the hump and allowed me to start meditating. And in you, you know, I was a little worried that maybe it would erode my edge, my professional edge, and I hear this concern quite a bit, but just take a look at the people, very successful public figures, who have embraced this practice; executives, athletes, Chicago Cubs, and your Novak Djokovic. Actors and journalists and you know, lots of people who really need an edge have embraced this ancient technology, because it's really good at improving your focus and lowering your emotional reactivity. And that actually can confer many advantages. So that's one obstacle for people who are new to it. Another is this idea that, again, I hear this all the time, people say, you know, I get it, meditation is good for you, but I can't do it. There's this assumption people have that they have some sort of bespoke lunacy that is unique to them. But that that's not true, you know that we all have these racing minds. And the idea that you can, quote unquote, clear your mind, is a huge and pernicious myth. Clearing your mind is impossible. As I like to joke unless you're enlightened or you have died, the goal of meditation is not to clear your mind, it's instead to focus your mind, usually just on the feeling of your breath coming in and going out. And then every time you get distracted, which is going to happen every nanosecond or so, you just notice what's distracted you and start again, and again, and again. It's like a golf game with a million Mulligans. And noticing you've become distracted is the point actually. A lot of people assume, you know, they said, try to focus on their breath. And every time they get distracted, they tell themselves a whole story about how they failed meditation. But seeing the wildness of your own mind is the point because once you start to see how cacophonous it is between your ears, you're less owned by the cacophony. And then the third and final thing I'll say, so I don't run too long here is people worry about not having time to do it, which I have a lot of sympathy for somebody who's got an overly stuffed schedule. And so there are two little mantras or slogans that I use. One is, one minute counts. You know, even if you're doing one minute of meditation, that's enough to engineer this collision with the voice in your head, which can give you the improved self awareness and to help you, you know, be calmer, less emotionally dysregulated. You know, I'd rather have people do five to 10 minutes, but, you know, even if you're starting with one minute, that counts, and then the other little slogan I use is daily-ish. You know, I think people at the beginning of forming a habit, grit their teeth and tell themselves, they're gonna do it every day. But it's nice to have some sort of psychological flexibility so that if you miss a few days the voice in your head doesn't swoop in and tell you you're done. Daily-ish allows for some elasticity.

Adam: That's tremendous advice. So that's great insight for me personally, because I'm someone who does incorporate meditation to an extent into my life- clearly not to the extent that I should, not to the extent that you have, but I'm clearly like, I think everyone else listening to this podcast, trying to figure out how I can optimize my performance, how I can improve in all aspects of my life. And clearly, you've figured out that meditation is a gateway to enhance performance. And just like all of our listeners, I'm always trying to figure out what areas I can tap into to gain that extra edge. So I think that's great advice for me personally, and on behalf of our listeners, I'm sure that there's a lot that anyone tuning into can immediately apply to their lives. Dan, along those lines, I wanted to try to tap into the connection between the advice you just gave on meditation and how we can rein in that inner voice and overcome whatever anxiety we might be facing before or during big moments that we're experiencing. When you're on the air, someone might be speaking before a big crowd, someone else might be in a big meeting, selling to a big customer, pitching to a big boss in a big job interview, what do you do in that situation when you're feeling that pinch?

Dan: There's a lot to say about this. One thing is, and this is going to be annoying a little bit, maybe, is that if you want to be able to perform at your best, you kind of have to do some of the, again, to use this word, annoying things that your parents might have told you, which is, take care of yourself. You know, if you're hopped up on caffeine because you haven't slept, not feeling your best because you're not exercising, or eating well, then you're gonna up the odds that you're going to be dysregulated. So, you know, the first advice that I got, as somebody that had a panic attack from my doctor, was that you have to really treat yourself like a very sensitive thoroughbred. And this is true, I think, not just for those of us who have panic disorder, but anybody is susceptible to stress in any situation. It’s sort of what I call the pantheon of no brainers; getting enough sleep, getting movement in your life, if you're physically able, you know, really vigorous exercise, eating well without being completely compulsive about it. There are a few others in this pantheon of no brainers. I would include meditation, which can really just calm things down, give you the self awareness to see that some of this fear that you're experiencing may just be a storyline that is habitual and ancient. Access to nature is incredibly powerful, and often not thought about as a wellness thing, but it is incredibly powerful. There's a lot of evidence for that. And then another thing that's often overlooked, especially in this age of social media, which isn't very social at all, is that true relationships with other human beings can be meaningful. There's a great expression from a therapist named Astaire Burrell. She also has a podcast called Where Should We Begin. When she came on my podcast, she said the quality of your relationships dictates the quality of your life. And even the older I get, the more I see the power of that statement, both professionally and personally. And so these are all things that deserve basic self care. These are sort of avenues that I would recommend to anybody who's looking to perform at their peak. Another thing that in those crunch moments when you're feeling the stress, another technique that was recommended to me by a professor at the Columbia University School of Business, and it is more of a cognitive technique, just just to know that when you're feeling stress, it's not necessarily bad. Sometimes it can be bad, if it's tipping over into, you know, panic or inability, paralytic inability to function. But you can re-frame whatever stress you're feeling as you're about to take the stage or if you're in a big meeting, as your body prepares you to act. And that's really when you can harness the power of what's going on in your body to perform at your best. And so that's just another thing to think about. And then finally, you know, like, I just want to expand upon what I said before about what meditation can do to help you see the stories in your head for what they often are; just stories, you talked about reining in the voice in the head. And that's often the way I talked about it for a long time, reining in using rather your own mind. But I increasingly am thinking that the old trope about slaying our dragons isn't the way it works. Actually, it's more like hugging the dragon, having some warmth toward your fear, toward your inner, you know, drill sergeant who's telling you, you know, you've got to work harder and harder and harder, just to see that these are sort of ancient neurotic patterns that were injected into you by the culture or by your parents, and they're trying to serve you often on skillfully and fighting with them is just going to make them more powerful. But it's more just like I see you. Welcome to the party. I'm not going to fight with you, but you know, have a seat. Let me take away your gun. You know, let me take away your weapons and give you a hug and then make a wiser decision so you can respond wisely to whatever's happening in your head or outside in the world, instead of reacting blindly all the time.

Adam: Dan, I think that's great advice and a really interesting perspective. And something that is, I think, unique to the way that most of us think about things and something that I think we should all really consider as we try to figure out how to tackle life is we're all experiencing, in some shape or form, inner voices and the better we can embrace them, the better we can understand how to best move forward, the more successful we'll be. So I really appreciate that. Something that I emphasize to audiences that I speak to is the importance of self discovery within the context of becoming a better leader. Before you can effectively lead others you need to effectively lead your own life, you need to understand who you are, you need to understand your strengths, your weaknesses, you need to understand your superpower. And you went on a really unique journey of self discovery that you've shared with our audience. And I wanted to ask you, what advice you have for our listeners on how they can best undertake a journey of self discovery that yields meaningful takeaways?

Dan: I think there are a lot of ways to do this first, just to agree with you about what you said about leadership. And these are the things I'm only coming to understand really belatedly, but it just makes a lot of sense. You know what, and this is not an original idea what I'm about to say, but when you have an enormous amount of unexamined baggage, or just any level of unexamined baggage, which we all do, but when you don't see what's going on in the danker corners of your consciousness, then you're going to be not only ruled by it in many scenarios, but you're gonna pass it along. It will metastasize through whatever organization you're leading, and you will, subconsciously be building. This is often this is a main thesis of my executive coach Jerry Kalona, that you'll build organizations that are, you know, again, subconsciously designed to kind of make you feel better, or to sort of act out whatever, you know, childhood stuff you've got going on. So that in terms of going on a- you can call it a journey of self discovery- is probably not the way I would phrase it, just because it makes it sound so big and, you know, like the stuff of novels, there are so many sort of doable ways to get a handle on your own inner life. And I should have listed what I was talking about. My no brainers therapy is incredibly useful. And there are now so many technological ways to get access to therapists, to really just start to, you know, challenge some of your assumptions, look at why you do what you do, I would say meditation is another way. Again, I'm, you know, I'm flogging this endlessly. But meditation really is another way to get a sense of what's going on in your head. And then to hold it up and look at it from some non judgmental, hopefully friendly, so that you're not so owned by it. And there's a lot of it and it's that therapy and meditation together can be really powerful. Having close friends that you can talk with about stuff like this, having an executive coach or a life coach, as long as they're actually credentialed and know what they're talking about, can be useful. And increasingly, we're hearing people talk about this sort of wise, careful use of psychedelics, which I've never done, but I've been intrigued by some of what I'm hearing coming out of that world. It can be reading and listening to podcasts. There are lots of ways to start doing this work, without having to, you know, upend your life.

Adam: As a professional communicator and one of the most successful communicators in the country, what are your best tips on the topic of communication? What makes a great communicator and how can anyone become a great communicator?

Dan: I spent so much of my life, you know, broadcasting, you know, one to many. And the big thing I think about in that lane, is making sure that you understand who your audience is, and doling out ideas in a simple, comprehensible, logical manner so that you're not overwhelming people or flooding people with too much information and being boring, but really understanding who you're talking to, and then thinking carefully about how to talk to them. The other thing I would say is that an enormously powerful age old approach to communication is narrative. We have, you know, a primordial pleasure from story. And so when you're doing presentations to the extent that you can do a beginning, middle, and end that people respond very well to that my mom, who I've referenced before, was had a had a feature in the section of the New England Journal of Medicine that she did, that she edited for a long time. And, I think it was every month, they would take a really difficult case, and then bring a lot of doctors together to figure out what the diagnosis was. And she structured them like mysteries, because she was a was- is- an avid reader of mysteries, Agatha Christie, etc., etc. So that's another piece of advice. And then what I was going to say before is that, you know, I spent a lot of time working on my one to many communication skills, and I wasn't particularly good. Maybe still, I'm not particularly good at one to one communication. I could interrupt or be impatient or not listen well. And I learned something that you've probably heard of, within the last couple of years, that's been really useful, which is reflective listening, which is kind of a meditation, in conversation. And that is that when you're talking, when you're listening to somebody, when they finish saying whatever they're going to say, to reflect back to them very quickly, in your own language, the bones of their message, the heart of their message. So if you've just said a whole long thing to me about your plan to go to the supermarket, and what you want to buy, I might say, oh, so you're, you know, you're going to Whole Foods, and you're really just focused on getting the right kind of apple for the apple pie. It is incredibly pleasing to have, obviously, more pleasing when you're getting into a deeper conversation than apple pie, to have somebody reflect back to you in their own words that they've understood what you've said. And I've just found that as I use this in conversation with people, even people, most of the time, people don't know that you're using a quote unquote, technique on them. But they feel really heard and seen. And that is such, I'll use this word again, a primordial need that we have as human beings that I found that it's really improved my listening skills in my relationship.

Adam: Dan, I think that that's great advice. I want to ask you one last question, the title of your book is 10% Happier. How can we ultimately live happier lives?

Dan: Well, I’ll go back to the no brainers I've listed before, those are all again, it's a little annoying to be reminded of some basic moves that we can make, but when it comes to human flourishing, you know, there is no silver bullet, which is why I semi facetiously called my book, and then the subsequent podcast and meditation app 10% Happier. There no one thing you're going to do and that 's going to fix all of your problems. That's, that is a sort of myth perpetuated by the shady or players in the self help industry. In fact, it's an ongoing project with many levers you can pull from, as I said before, sleep to exercise to relationships, to therapy, to nature, to again, meditation. And just to some wrap this up on meditation, in particular, what the science of meditation, a lot of it has been neuroscience, which shows that people who meditate that their brains change key areas of the brain associated with focus and self awareness and compassion and stress, change and really, salutary wave. What this is telling us is that happiness isn't some sort of factory setting that is unalterable. That happiness isn't something that happens to us, it is, in fact, a skill. And that's a really radical notion, but also incredibly empowering, that there's something you can do about the quality of your life. And we spend so much time, many of us, working on our resumes, working on our social media profiles, our interior design, our cars, whatever, and very little time working on the one filter through which we experience everything. And that's our mind. Again, the good news is you can do this work. And in my experience, and in the science, it's pretty clear that it pays off.

Dan: I think it's really important once you understand that, to not be a passenger in life, not be a passenger, when it comes to pursuing your happiness. Get in the driver's seat. Get after it. Dan, thank you for all of your wisdom. Thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors. Thank you for joining us.

Dan: I really appreciate it. Thank you.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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