I recently interviewed Debra Lee on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today was a leader of the largest company in the world dedicated to African American programs and was one of the Hollywood reporters of 100 Most Powerful Women in Entertainment. Debra Lee was the CEO of BET and is the author of the new book, I am Debra Lee. Debra, thank you for joining us.

Debra: Thank you for having me out. I'm delighted to be here.

Adam: I'm so happy that you're here with us. Debra, you grew up in the segregated south in Greensboro, North Carolina, before attending a couple of different Ivy League schools, Brown and then Harvard, where you earn two different graduate degrees, including a law degree. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What experiences and lessons were most instrumental to shaping your worldview and to shaping the trajectory of your success?

Debra: Wow, that's a great question. My early days were spent in many different cities. My dad was in the army. So I was born in Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and moved to Germany when I was six months old. I lived there for four years, then moved to D.C., was there for a couple of years, then moved to Compton, California, and lived through the Watts Riots in Compton, California. So that was a life-shaping event and then moved to Greensboro, North Carolina when my dad retired from the army. So I say that to say, first of all, I think I had more of a worldview than most young people experience. And because we moved around so much, but when we moved to Greensboro, it was different because first it was segregated. I had never lived in a segregated community before. It was the south and we were all going through the Civil Rights Movement, which was scary at times and inspiring at times. But also, I saw Robert Kennedy was killed, John Kennedy was killed when I was young, Martin Luther King was murdered. So that said to me, in a way, that if you tried to do the right thing, you risk your life and had the possibility of being murdered for what you stood for. So it was a pretty scary time. On the other hand, the neighborhood I lived in, in Greensboro was all Black, it was very supportive. We had our own doctors, and lawyers, we had a Black bank, and schools were taught by Black teachers. So we had a very supportive environment. And our teachers knew how hard it would be for us to be successful, and how much harder we would have to work, if we went to predominantly White schools, it would be difficult. So they really did try to prepare us for that, and encourage us to work twice as hard to be the best we could be, to be as successful as we could be, and then to give back to the community. And both of my parents supported it. So I was born in 1954, the year of Brown versus Board of Education which integrated all the schools. Of course, that didn't really happen. It may not even have happened by now. But I always felt the weight of that, that okay, I was that first generation of Black young people who could go to Ivy League schools. So I went to Brown. I went to Harvard Law and the Kennedy School. And so in a way, I really felt the weight of the race on my shoulders, and to be successful and to find a way to give back, I couldn't have a frivolous career. My dad wanted me to be a lawyer. He always wanted to be a lawyer. And the fact that I wanted to be a fashion designer did not interest him at all. But that's what I wanted to do. But what did I do? I went to law school, I became a lawyer because that's what he wanted. And our parents didn't have any wealth to pass down, didn't have any money at all to pass down so they felt their obligation to their children was to get them the best education we could, so we could take care of ourselves. When I went away to Brown my mother put everything I owned in a footlocker and shipped it with me. There was no coming home, there was no bedroom to return to. She and my dad had just divorced. She moved into one bedroom apartment. I couldn't ask her for advice. I did ask her for money. And I remember the $5 checks that she used to send, just so I could do my laundry. And so very early on, I knew I had to make it on my own. And I had to figure this thing out on my own. And that's what I did coming out of law school. Well, first going to law school, I found out I didn't like it. And I applied to the Kennedy School to give me an option of going into government. And I figured it out from there. But I had a great childhood. My family was supportive. I had good friends. Greensboro was fun, the era of Motown, we had a lot of dances. And when I look back on it, it was a fun childhood. But I was always very business oriented. In a way, I made potholders and sold them in the neighborhood really early on.

Adam: Debra, there's so much there that I want to unpack. I know, there's so much there that I love. Starting off with the power of community, the power of mentorship, and the importance of paying it forward. I love the fact that you shared that your parents didn't have the wealth to pass down. But they pass down education, and they pass down what money can't buy. And that's such an important lesson for listeners. Yeah, I'm going to challenge anyone listening to this podcast, to ask yourself, what can you pass down? What can you pass along? What can you give to someone else? Doesn't have to be monetary? What is it that you can offer to the world? How can you enrich the lives of others? You spoke about the importance of feeling the weight of Brown versus the Board of Education, you said that you couldn't have a frivolous career. And none of us should live frivolous lives. We need to wake up every single day and understand that we're here for a reason. What is that reason? What is our purpose? What are we here to do? Own it and take responsibility, whatever it is that you're passionate about, whatever it is that you love doing, whatever it is that you believe you're here to do, what is your gift? Go all in and do it.

Debra: Right? And maybe frivolous is the wrong word. When I left Steptoe and Johnson, the law firm where I worked, my dad said, “Why are you leaving this prestigious law firm? They have chandeliers, wood paneling, and good retirement plans. Why are you leaving?”. And I said, “Dad, it's just not fun anymore”. And he looked me dead in the eye. And he said, “If it was supposed to be fun, they wouldn't call it work”. He really knew that he was in the army, and he didn't have fun. But to me, I wanted to have a more creative and non-traditional career. Now for my kids. And I hear this from a lot of people my age, we were the first generation, we had a lot of responsibility. But our kids want to have more freedom. My son, when I asked him what he wanted to do, at one point, he said, “I just want to make people dance”. And he was a DJ. Now he worked at a record label also and loves working with artists, but I couldn't have said that to my dad. And my only question back to my son was, “Well, can you make a living off of that?”. And that was a silly question because now DJs are making more money than attorneys. And then my daughter knew she wanted to be an artist manager. So she went to USC and worked for Scooter Braun for six years. So they didn't feel like they had to be an attorney or a doctor, or a business person, they could be a little bit more creative. And I worked hard and my ex-husband worked hard to give them that freedom. Okay, we'll support you for six months to a year when you get settled. And they knew they had more of a pillow, let's say to fall back, they could come home, my son came home and worked at Sirius XM for a while as a programmer, and they just had a little bit more freedom. So I think there are fun jobs and jobs that creative people can occupy. They may have to be supported along the way.

Adam: Debra, what were the keys to rising within your career? And what can anyone do to rise within their career?

Debra: Yeah, I think the first one is getting a good education. It never goes out of style. It's always in your head. So my parents pushing me to get a good education was step number one. Step number two was finding something I was passionate about. And then working hard at it. Because we all work too hard to be doing something that we don't enjoy. And we're not passionate about it. It could be a company, or it could be in government. It could be a cause or an organization, but something that, as you said represents your value. I enjoy giving back. It's not something everybody has to do. But you have to have a passion and feel good about what you're doing. And one thing I learned is that it has to line up with your values. If you're feeling like you're coming to work every day and producing programming that you don't believe in, or that you don't like, you're not going to be happy. When I was at a law firm producing briefs and memorandum for clients who I didn't believe in, it was not productive for me. So you have to find something that you believe in. And then you have to work hard at it and do the best you can every day. I love that about going to work every day. And if I was ever in a position where I didn't enjoy it, you know, that was a sign it was time to leave if someone wants to. If you don't have butterflies in your stomach, you're not learning something. I really believe that you have to work hard, continue to be a lifelong learner, and help people. And I don't mean that you can't make money the way you can help people and make money, you can make lots of money and give it away to help people as we see so many tech billionaires doing, but you just have to figure out what's right for you.

Adam: You brought up your time at BET, you spent more than 30 years as a top executive at BET, including 13 as CEO, BET was the first Black company traded on the New York Stock Exchange. And by the time you retired, there were more than 100 million homes around the world with access to BET. What were the keys to BET’s success? And what can leaders of any business, learn and emulate from what you and BET were able to accomplish?

Debra: Well, I think the key to success was one, we had a founder Bob Johnson who was intent on building the most successful media company targeted to African Americans. I mean, that was his goal. And he hired people that believed in that vision. And he hired quality people that were willing to work hard and see BET become successful. The other thing that helped the team was the growth of the cable net, the cable industry. And when the urban areas were wired, which was last, if you remember, the rural areas were wired first, but the big cities were wired last. And the cities controlled who was awarded the cable franchise and cable operator who could go in and say I have BET on my platform so you'll be able to sell it more to African Americans. And this was key to our success because most cable operators wanted to be able to say that and there were no other African American networks at the time. So having the right idea and working hard to make it become successful. And not just a Black company, but an American company. I mean, when we stood on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, in the morning, BET stock, first started trading, we went from $17 to $28-$29 on the first day, and we became a successful American story. As you said, we are the first Black company to do it. But we are also a successful American story. And that's the key to American success if you're in the corporate world, so that was inspiring. And that made us want to do even more, then we continued to take the BET brand into other areas, into restaurants, into a clothing line, into an all-female network, then EP her into all the different things that we felt that the BET brand would fit on. So it wouldn't be everything but it was how else can we use this brand? And how can we invest the money that we raised from going public? So I think was just having this bigger view of what the company could be. And sometimes people have a tendency to think too small or think they have to stay within their small area. But some of the more successful companies you see get into multiple areas because that's the way to grow and not put all your eggs in one basket.

Adam: So many great lessons. It starts with having a great idea. But it continues with staying focused and having a clear goal. Hiring the right people. You had the right people on your team. Hiring people who believe in what you're doing is so important. Being in the right industry, you are in a growth industry.

Debra: But truth be told, a lot of people didn't believe cable would last. They didn't believe cable would last or a broadcast would go out of style, or 28 channels were too much. Now we're living in a 500-channel world or a streaming world of who knows, and the marketplace keeps growing and supporting that. And I think it's great for consumers, it just gives them more alternatives.

Adam: The important thing is that Bob Johnson believed it, you believed it, and the people on your team believed it. I interviewed Bill Rasmussen, the founder of ESPN. And he shared that no one believed that his vision. He went to investor after investor after investor, and he literally got laughed at because people thought what kind of crazy idea is this? I did an interview with Alan Mirka, he got laughed at. Alan is the founder of EA. So if you have an innovative idea, oftentimes, everyone else in the room is going to think you're crazy. But what matters is that you believe in it. And that you can execute it. You had that first-mover advantage. And once you were able to achieve great success, and something that you shared, which I love, an American story. Something that everyone can get behind, something that everyone really believes in, the power of mission. You're able to take this great brand that you built, and think bigger, expanding into different areas beyond cable television,

Debra: Right. And then when we felt like the street was giving us the value for staff that we thought we deserved, we took it private. And then two years later, I came calling and wanted to acquire the company. So you also have to be willing to go through different corporate structures and figure out how you're going to raise money, how you're going to invest money to keep the growth there. And that's one thing I always liked about BET and Bob Johnson. We never said this is enough. We're gonna just sit right here and do one channel and life is good. We always were thinking about what's the next thing. And when online came, we had to find a way to bring BET online. And I really believed in this. We never want anyone to take our marketplace away. Or our audience. I had that issue when Oprah started her network, and she wanted to buy advertising on our network. And I told her no, I said, “You're a competitor. I'm not going to hand you our audience on a silver platter. You have to compete like we have to compete”. That was a hard thing to say the Oprah Winfrey, but I had to do it, 

Adam: You stood your ground.

Debra: Yeah, I never wanted a new technology to come along that would take our audience away. So we have to stay on top of emerging technologies and what was the next big thing and that keeps us in touch with what's going on in the world. 

Adam: Stay on top of emerging technologies. Always think about the next big thing. Always look forward. Always innovate.

Adam: We're talking about all these great things, all the highlights. But I do have to ask you about some of the dark moments. Some of the tough times. There were many moments over the course of your career and you go into this in your book. Where for one, you are the only woman in the room. You are the only Black person in the room. There were times when you encounter blatant racism while on the job. Can you share with listeners what were the toughest moments that you faced? How did you navigate them? And how can anyone listening navigate the toughest moments that they inevitably will face in their lives and in their careers?

Debra: Yeah, well, that's one of the reasons I wanted to write this book, I've always wanted to help those who come behind me. I always wanted them to learn from my lessons and my challenges. And I've always thought of myself as a pretty normal person. And not the smartest kid in the room. That was me. But you know, even at six or seven I always felt like if I could do it, anyone else could do it. And I want to inspire young people in that way. So I had to deal with two issues, one being Black, and one being a woman. People used to ask me, which is the hardest? And I used to think it was being Black. But as I moved further in my career, I found that I was being a woman. That even racial equality was being touted. Diversity was being touted. But it's still it's very hard to be a woman in corporate America. And when I stepped down from BET, and looked around and saw how few women there are, still, I said, well, I'm definitely going to write this book because I want to inspire other people to be great. One of the first instances is a silly story. But I got a job at a corporate law firm, after my first year at law school, and you usually don't get a corporate law firm internship until you're a second year. So I was lucky to get it first year. When in rearing, you do great work, I got an assignment, and I don't remember what it was. But each partner does an evaluation on you after you turn in your work. And I don't know how I saw it. But I just happen to be in the head of the human resources office. And I saw my first evaluation. And it was from an older White partner. And he put on the evaluation in big letters across the page, ‘great legs’ with two exclamation points. That was so hurtful to me. That’s all he could come up with. And that was my evaluation. And he was comfortable putting it in writing and giving it to the hiring committee. Because how you do during the summer is evidence of whether they want to hire you or not. So it wasn't the worst thing in the world. But it was pretty eye-opening. Then as I started in the workplace, being at a corporate law firm was tough being a woman and Black. But you know, you have to deal with that. And you kind of hope it doesn't affect your ability to be promoted. And you just deal with it. I remember one time I was on the phone with a partner, a White partner at Steptoe, we were talking to the head of the broadcast station. And he wanted to get some more networks, some more stations, and there was a preference if you were a woman, or if you were Black, or whatever. And I was trying to explain to him on the phone that he didn't have any of those preferences, none of those preferences applied to him. He was a White male. He was going to have to compete on that basis. And he said to me, “Oh, you mean my last name won't help at all?”. And his last name was Coons. And it took me a minute to realize what he was talking about. And I probably turned 10 shades of red. And luckily, the partner who was there with me, said, “No, that won't help you. And it won't help you that your attorney is a Black woman”. So this client didn't even know I was a Black woman. And he thought it was fine to make that kind of comment, that a derogatory word like coons could get him some, you know, as his name could get him some sort of preference. But anyway, I just tell those stories. So those are the kinds of things you have to deal with. And luckily, my partner put him in his place really quickly. But I'm afraid it doesn't get any easier. And the murder of George Floyd, and other things that have happened in the past several years, just point it out. That we all face these challenges, and we all have to deal with them. I think my advice would be, to be true to yourself, and be true to your values. And don't try to be something you're not because you're not going to be comfortable in the position, and everyone should live their truth. And I think we are so much in that place in our world with transgender and nonbinary and all kinds of sexual orientations. And people just have to be themselves. And if you're not in an environment where you can be taken seriously and listened to and respected for who you are, then you should leave. And I hope things have gotten better. But I know the past several years we've talked about race more in the board room than ever before, and people are still uncomfortable with it. And we don't see enough progress in terms of people of color and women moving up the corporate ladder.

Adam: There were moments where my stomach literally turned multiple times, just hearing those awful stories that you shared, those awful experiences that you went through. And the fact that you have a front-row seat to so many different companies, and you're sharing with listeners that the progress that's being made today is not significant enough. So my question to you is, what can leaders do? Because so many people listening to this podcast are leaders, leaders who can make an impact. What can leaders do, to build truly diverse and truly inclusive organizational cultures?

Debra: Well, it begins at the top. So it is up to the leaders, I always say the first thing leaders should do is look around their senior team table. And if it's all White males and no people of color, or no women, you have a problem. And you need to solve that. And you need to solve it with intention because that's the only way you're going to solve it. When I took over as CEO of  BET, I felt like I needed more women at the table. And I had to really go out and make that a qualification for what I was looking for. So it's really up to the CEOs to set an example by the people they hire and to make their company a safe place to talk about race and equality and sexuality, and just all the things that people face in the world. And I have served on the board of one company that does a really great job at diversity. That's because they have a board-level Committee, and the committee looks at their numbers of hiring, their supplier diversity, the number of hotels that diverse owners own, and all those things are important to look at the product we've created. Is it content? Is it media? Is it hotels? And how can you bring more diverse people into that arena? Maybe pick someone you want to mentor and make sure they have the opportunities and are able to create wealth for themselves. Because the way you create wealth that companies as you all know is through stocks, or investments, the same way you do with a corporate board. And all of those need to be looked at closely and made available to a wider group of people. So there are a lot of things that the company itself can do. But it starts with the CEO. And they should pass on the responsibility to the people that report to them to do the same thing.

Adam: You serve on a number of different boards and have served on many boards over the course of your career. What are your best tips for anyone listening who may be interested in joining a corporate board?

Debra: Well, first of all, if you're interested in joining a board, you need to let people know that. You need to let your boss know that, and you need to let people that are on boards know that you need to get your name out there. And you know, you could go so far as to hire a search firm, to help you look for a board. But the first hurdle is to get approval from your boss because it does take time away from your day-to-day job. And then let people know what kind of companies you're interested in. And there are all kinds of board readiness courses now that people can take to be more prepared. Again, if you don't know anyone that's on a board or your parents weren't on board, and you don't know how a board works and you don't know how the board room handles issues. I did a board readiness program through my new company Monarchs Collective. And the women loved it because they were able to ask all the dumb questions they had. And I had it in my head because I've been doing it for so long. And at the end of four weeks, several of them went out and were able to get more board positions. But it's very important to let people know you're interested, and try to find sponsors who will help you find board positions.

Adam: Debra, what do you believe are the key characteristics of a great leader? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Debra: You have to have a vision about something. You have to have goals and a vision. And if you're a CEO of a company, that's very important. I always say when I was CEO of beauty, no one asked me what my vision was. My job was to carry out the CEO's vision. But once you're a leader and once you're the CEO, you have to have your own vision. And you have to know what you want your company to be to achieve. You have to know what you want your legacy to be, and you have to know how to inspire others because the biggest part of being a leader is inspiring others, and getting them to buy into your vision and help you with that. So I think it's also about being able to evaluate people and hire the best people. I'm very proud of my success rate at BET in terms of hiring people and figuring out how to motivate them. And not everyone works out, that's never going to happen. So you also have to know what happens when someone doesn't work out, and how to terminate them, or how to discipline them, so you can't be too nice. And you have to make decisions in the best interest of the company. And I like to say that you also need a sense of humor. The stress of being a leader is way too much if you don't have a sense of humor because everything's not going to work perfectly. There are always new challenges, always new things that you have to overcome, and you just have to enjoy it and have fun. You know, I think that's, that's really important. And we don't have enough leaders like that, that can keep us in humor and be humble about that. A lot of leaders can be humble, and really accept their mistakes and their faults, and not be afraid of them.

Adam: What can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally? 

Debra: I think it's always lifelong learning. So no matter what you're doing, have outside interests and commitments. I mean, I'm amazed that more people don't do more things. See me, I've done a lot of charity work, I enjoy trying to figure out how to support causes I believe in. I'm interested in the political world. So some of that comes from Mike Kennedy School training. But I am living in D.C. for 37 years, but I'm always interested in who's running for office, and how can I support him in taking classes, to continue to learn as you age, because that keeps the mind active. And really being a team player. I think that's so important. Being a team player, because there are so many we can think it's all about them or what they want to do. And they don't take into account the rest of the team and or really what the CEO or the company needs to be done. And I think that the fastest way to be unsuccessful is to think it's all about you. And you can either run your own little company inside the company, or you can not be invested in the CEO's success. And unfortunately, that happens too often. And my feeling is those kinds of people are never successful because they're marching to a different drummer and trying to do something that is not going to help the company.

Adam: Be a lifelong learner, be a well-rounded person, and be a team player.

Debra: Right? I like the well-rounded person because people should have time to enjoy outside activities and have a family if they want. We're also wedded to our devices these days. So you have to learn how to relax. And that gets harder and harder. I mean, I remember going to the beach, taking my fax machine with me, and having reams and reams of paper when I came back at the end of the day because they were sending me documents to review. Well, now it's much easier than that. All you gotta do is send over your phone. So when do you ever relax? So I think it's really important to be well-rounded and do those things that you enjoy doing. And you know, your career should provide you with a way to enjoy those things.

Adam: Debra, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors. 

Debra: No, thank you. This has been so much fun. Thank you for having me.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally-recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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