I recently interviewed Senator Doug Jones on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today did the impossible and was elected to the United States Senate as a Democrat in Alabama. Doug Jones was the first Democrat elected to the US Senate in 25 years in Alabama and was one of the most productive members of the Senate in his time in office. Senator Jones, thank you for joining us.

Doug: Great pleasure being with you. I appreciate this opportunity.

Adam: Pleasure is mine. Thanks for being here. You grew up in Fairfield, Alabama, and you did your undergrad at the University of Alabama. You're a big Alabama football fan. You stayed in the state to go to law school at Samford University. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What early experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

Doug: That's a great question. Because the early part of my life was part of the Jim Crow South, the segregated South. White schools, black schools, white neighborhoods, black neighborhoods, and it was rare that the races came together. And that's how my life started. That's how it was for so long until our schools began to be desegregated. Part of me was that whole desegregation process, when as a leader in the school, at the time, whether it was junior high or high school, I didn't go to an integrated school in elementary school. It was the seventh grade in the mid-60s before that happened. And I think trying to make sure, with all of the scrutiny, high awareness of what was happening between the races at the time for kids to try to make a functioning school and to enjoy school, and learn to do both took some effort, that helped for me a lot in the school systems out in Fairfield and preparing me for college and law school and life beyond education. But that interplay, I think, was the main thing for me. Of course, some things happen in the course of college and law school, like political campaigns, cutting classes in law school, and watching the first of the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing cases be tried. Those all have an impact on you. I was fortunate enough to have parents who let me sprout my wings and be who I was, and also some mentors, political mentors, like Howell Heflin from Alabama, who was a former Chief Justice who reached out. So I am a product of a whole bunch of things in my life in my early years.

Adam: How did you cultivate the relationships with the mentors who you had who made such a big impact in your life? And what can anyone do to find a great mentor and to be a great mentor?

Doug: I don't know if you find a mentor, or if they find you. It's not something that you can just simply interview for. Those things just seem to happen. And I've had a number I include my dad as one of them because he was a hard-working family man, very quiet, reserved, but provided me a lot with the work ethic that I've had over the years. I saw in our school superintendent when I was in school, the ability to try to work with a lot of different people in some tough situations, involving desegregation of the schools and having to navigate that. I got to know Senator Heflin's son Tom when I was in law school, and then got to know Senator Heflin, and that was one I just worked on. I wanted to get involved in politics. And that was something that I saw, he had an opportunity because he was so fair, he was reaching out to the black community in Alabama. He was doing things that were apart from what we had seen in George Wallace and some other area politicians. And so he's one that I did reach out to and was fortunate enough to be on his staff. And that's one you just learn by osmosis. I mean, it just falls on you. And I'll tell you somebody else that I came across who came to my law school, when I was a second-year law student, and I was carried away with and that is Joe Biden. He was finishing his first term as a US senator from Delaware, he spoke at the law school, and his charisma, his intelligence, or the way he handled himself and the way he spoke directly to people, whether he knew that they agreed with him or not, but spoke directly on the things that he believed in. That was something that appealed to me as well. And we've we've been friends ever since. It's going on for 47-48 years now.

Adam: That's amazing. And you started by saying, it just kind of happens, and it happens to you. But as you dive into how you were able to cultivate all these different relationships and connections, a lot of it comes down to your mindset, your attitude, and who you are as a person. You spoke about your dad, you spoke about your school superintendent, if you have the approach, that every person around you, doesn't matter who they are, is someone who you could learn from someone who you can take something from that can allow you to become better, they will, in some shape, or form become a mentor to you. If you're someone who takes initiative, who's proactive when you come across someone who's your friend, and you see that their dad could be a great connection for you, could be a great mentor to you, you're gonna figure out a way to make that happen. Joe Biden, speaking at your school, somehow, some way you cultivate that relationship? I'm sure there were lots of other students sitting in that same speech who didn't do that.

Doug: Yeah, you're right about that. It takes a recognition that there is something that you see, that hits you in the right place. And you've got to take that and you can work with that. And that's the positive of having a mentor. It's somebody that you can look up to, and then continue to follow. I will say this, though, that that's in terms of the positives. I've come across a lot of people in my life who I also learned from, about what not to do, and what not to be, those are not mentors. But I still learned a hell of a lot from watching those folks and listening, and seeing the reactions of people and understanding. And it's the mentors that we need to focus on. And the positives we need to focus on. We can't overlook the fact that you should just completely discount others who are not having that effect, that you can take away from things and learn from them and not make what you believe are the same mistakes that they're making. So it's a combination of all that.

Adam: I'm not going to ask you to name names and throw people under the bus. But can you talk about some of the bad leaders who you have been around, and what you've learned not to do, and then compare and contrast that with some of the great leaders that you've been around and what you think makes a bad leader and what you think makes a great leader?

Doug: Wow, I think that over the years, I have met a lot of people, folks from George Wallace, John McCain, and Barack Obama. Part of what it is, I always believed comes from your internal moral compass. And where you start and where you are. And the few times I was around George Wallace, I was nice, and so was he. But I looked at what he did. And it was a book about this, the politics of hate, and how he divided people. And that was not who I wanted to be. Now, people talk about Wallace coming around in his older age. I don't know about that. I just think it was all about Wallace. It was all about him. I see the same kind of thing, quite frankly. And Donald Trump, I saw it when I was in the Senate. I saw it the times that I've met with him, I see it in his public appearances where it is about dividing people and not bringing people together. I knew that that was not who I wanted to be. And I go back to what I was talking about with high school and desegregation of the schools and being a student leader, trying to make sure that your school and your fellow students could all come together to cheer for the same football team to participate in the choir, the band, whatever, those bringing people together are the folks that I have looked to. And I think there's a lot of folks that have done that. I thought Barack Obama did that. Not just with his election, but with his presidency. I think Joe Biden has done that over the years, although he has, as president, been demonized as much. So that's what I tried to look to. And I saw this on both sides of the aisle in the Senate. I worked well with Lamar Alexander from Tennessee and others, who reached out to folks because they want to govern, they want to get things done. And it's not my way or the highway in the way that they looked at things. So I think I've been blessed over the years to come across a lot of folks. And you take a little bit from just about everybody.

Adam: The key theme that you're bringing up, which has been a defining theme in your time as a US Senator, is the importance of finding common ground. Great leaders find common ground, great senators find common ground. How can you find common ground?

Doug: Well, you've got to talk to people. And more importantly, you've got to listen to people. You've got to go where they are, not where you want them to be or where you will. It's a combination of things, you've got your ideas, you've got your thoughts. But if you can talk through and listen and understand, even if you disagree, and understand where somebody is coming from, that gives you a leg up to try to find that common ground. Of course, it's a two-way street, somebody else has got to have that kind of same philosophy. It's not just like, okay, we got to do this, how do we compromise? How did we do this to get something done? It's really about understanding what is important to the person that you're working with, and how you can make that happen, if at all possible. And that's not everything by the way. You can't always 100% agree, you can't always get what you want, and you can't always keep the other person from getting all that they will. But if you work to try to talk to people to understand, and I go back to this phrase that I've heard from several people, that you have to go where they are, to be able to fully listen and to understand and to work from that, and assume and hope that they are doing the same thing. Because if they are, it is a lot easier to find that common ground.

 

Adam: I love that. Meet people where they are, don't expect people to come to you, and give people the benefit of the doubt. Assume that people are acting in good faith. Trust, but verify. And you'll ultimately be that much more likely to get to a common solution.

Doug: Yeah, I tell people all the time, when they ask me about the work I did in the Senate, and having the number of bills enacted into law that we did and the work that we did with others. I said, you know if you strip away and take away the label Republican and the label Democrat, what you'll find is that so many people in this country have the same goals. They want better health care. For Americans, they want better education, they want to have America secure from enemies outside of this country. It's how you get there. But if you can recognize that your goal is essentially the same, then it's a lot easier to go where they are and to understand that we're in it together. And that's not always the case, because there are some who I just think are not anywhere that I would go toward. But that's generally not the case. Almost everybody has the same type of goals and aspirations for their country and their public service. It's just getting there. And those are legitimate ways, different ways that you can come to that same common ground.

Adam: You gave examples of colleagues who you've had, who may have been in a different political party, but who you genuinely liked and respected. How do you deal with your colleagues who you don't like and don't respect, but who you have to deal with, to ultimately get things done?

Doug: Like, you just have to look past a lot of the things, and I'm not gonna name names or anything like that. But some people just rub you the wrong way. There are some that you think are just out there, and they're extreme, that you just don't have a whole lot to do with it. What I found is that a lot of those folks didn't seek me out to help with legislation, and I didn't seek them out. There are just enough people on both sides of the aisle that can put past some legitimate political differences, to find that common ground and that's who I worked with, and there were some unlikely folks. I mean, people like Lamar Alexander from Tennessee, I just thought was a wonderful human being. He did an incredible job in Tennessee. He was great to work with. He's one of the first people that called on me when I got to the Senate. He came to me, he came to visit in my office rather than asking me to come visit with him. I thought it was just a very nice touch. But I worked with others with whom I probably politically have such disagreements. Ted Cruz and I did the cold case civil rights bill together forming a commission to look at all these cold cases that arise. And that was a speech I did on the Senate floor about the bill. And Ted was presiding and came to me and said, "I liked this, can we work together on it?" I said, "Absolutely." So it's really interesting. And that kind of goes back to the mentor comment. Sometimes you don't go looking it finds you. And it comes from places that you wouldn't expect. And so I was always on the lookout for it.

Adam: A lot of great lessons there. Being open to what comes to you not closing yourself off. You don't need to agree with everyone on everything. I'm sure you and Ted Cruz disagree 99.9% of the time. But it's that one sliver of commonality where you can get something done and get something meaningful done, and not closing yourself off to working with someone who you vehemently oppose 99.9% of the time, being open to working with people whom you might not like you might not agree with. But you can put all that aside for the greater good. You've brought up Lamar Alexander, someone who was proactive in building a relationship with you. And so much of it comes down to that personal relationship. You do business with people who you like, and whom you trust. What are the keys to building trust?

Doug: Well, you build trust by being trustworthy. It's that simple. You tell people, you don't mislead them You talk to people and go where they are, listen, ask questions. But you can only build trust if you exhibit trust, and you can trust them, you have to have that ability to trust what they say. But if they gotta have the ability to trust what you say, you've got to be open, you've got to be honest. If you are trying to find common ground, the worst thing that can happen is to hold something back in this discussion and pop on somebody at the last minute. And everything will fall apart based on that. Going in when the opportunities are there, to bring up those differences brings up the things that you agree with, that's how you build trust by being open and honest with people about where you stand on issues. And that includes, by the way, whether or not you can even get to a point of common ground. There were times and there are always times, especially in the life of a member of Congress or the Senate, where you're working with some folks and you work and you get close, but you just can't quite get there. Well, you build trust to some extent by acknowledging that and saying, "I just can't go, it's a bridge too far. Let's see if we can find something else to work on later." And you build that trust up. And people appreciate the honesty of saying I just can't go there for these reasons. It's a combination of proactive as well as just being candid with folks, you can do that. And you can be candid without being brutal.

 

Adam: It's a great line, you can be candid without being brutal. If only more people thought like that.

Doug: Well, I wish more people would just simply turn the TV cameras off in the Senate, in the House, so that people could just talk on the Senate floor a little bit and not just give pure political speeches. There are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that I wish people could see. I tell the story. I was on the Armed Services Committee and one of the big bills that Congress does every year is the NDAA, the National Defense Authorization Act. It's a bipartisan Act and the way it gets there in the Senate, and I think they do it in the House too, is you have the chairman and the ranking member put a bill together, and then when you coat a mark that bill up. It's one of the few times in the Senate that it's done behind closed doors, and senators offer a couple of 100 amendments throughout a 7, 8, 10 hour period where you're there with only the staff, and there's no TV and there's no media. And you see some very honest dialogue and a lot of give and take. I wish people could see that. Now watch that two terms, two different NDAAs. And I watch people on both sides of the aisle, they would offer an amendment. And at some point, they would say, why don't we just hold that? And let me talk to Senator so and so who's got some concerns and see if we can work it out. 9 times out of 10, they did. And that's the way things should be in the Congress of the United States. That's how you govern.

Adam: And you bring up a broader point, which is, that leaders need to create an environment that is conducive to getting things done. All too often, we clock in, we clock out. But how much of that time is spent productively? And why is the time that is spent productively being spent productively? How as leaders, can we optimize our employees' time? And a lot of it comes down to creating the right environment. Do you have any thoughts on that? How can leaders create an environment that allows people to be at their very best?

Doug: It is a tough question because every circumstance is different. A Senate office is different than a House office, the Senate chamber is different than the House chamber. corporations in America are different from one to the next. Nonprofits. You have to give people some leeway to be creative, but also make sure they know and understand that their opinions matter and that they are respected within that organization. A leader should not be, "Well we're going to do this, this is my way or the highway." I don't think that that's a very good way, especially when I was in the Senate when I was a United States attorney. I wanted everybody to feel free to come in and talk to me about issues and concerns. I want them to feel free to come and talk to me if they have concerns about me or something I said or something I did. It happened all the time because I'm not perfect either. But I also took their ideas seriously. I took their thoughts seriously, whether it was in the US Attorney's Office, or political, I wanted a team. Everyone knew that I might be the quarterback of the team and a player-coach to some extent. But everybody had a role. And everybody's role was important. And I'll tell you, one of the more interesting things that I did in the Senate, I think, was during the impeachment of President Trump. We had gone through several months of watching the house building a record about this. And so we knew what the facts were, by the time the impeachment articles came to the Senate. We knew mostly what the facts were, we knew what the arguments were going to be, and the trial was going to be several days, but we knew this. So I called my senior staff and the six senior members of my staff. And this was before I went out of town for a week on a break. I had this little jar and I had pieces of paper rolled up that had folded up, three of them said guilty, and three of them said not guilty. And I had everyone pick a piece of paper, they didn't know what they were picking. And I told them, read what you've got, if you've got guilty, in a week when I come back, I want you to give me the argument for why Donald Trump is guilty of these impeachable crimes, or acts. I had that same thing for those who had picked not guilty. And people had preconceived notions, about half of them were more, they picked up a side, that was not what they were supposed to do. And because I did it randomly, as opposed to saying, "Hey, I know how you feel. But I want you to argue the other side", it kind of caught them off guard a little bit. But they did just amazing work. And I came back the next week, and we sat down and we listened to everybody's arguments. And it helped me form the pros and the cons. And it made that staff a part of something historic, they knew that was going on more than just simply researching and giving me a memo. It was a really interesting time. So sometimes you can do things outside the box that make people feel part of the organization because they should be.

Adam: And that's a great example of it. You also shared a great example of a big decision, defining the decision in many ways for many senators. What was the most difficult decision that you've had to make throughout your career and what advice do you have on the topic of decision making?

Doug: Wow, There were, I would think probably the decision as to whether or not to vote to convict a president, United States on articles of impeachment, was one of the most significant that I've ever had to make. I knew the stakes. I knew the political stakes for me in Alabama. But I had told my campaign staff, I told the Senate staff, we're going to do everything that we believe is the right thing to do, not the political thing to do. And so that was difficult. We put a lot of time in. The decision to seek indictments against two former Klansmen, for the murder of those four girls, when they bombed the church. And we were seeking indictments 36 years after the fact, which was an important decision, because we knew the outcome, if we were to convict those guys would be tremendous. But the downside, if we didn't, was going to have some ripple effect to some negative ripple effect in the community. So that was a momentous decision, I think. And frankly, the decision that I made with my wife, Louise, about whether or not to run for the US Senate, kids were out of the house, had a pretty good law career going on, it was gonna be a tough race, we were gonna get the crap that would be thrown at us, and getting our personal lives kind of offended. That was not an easy decision. It was one that I think we made the right way because we wanted to give a voice and we wanted to make some changes in Alabama and beyond. So all of those were pretty momentous there and helped form whatever I'll leave in this world, those decisions were three of the most important.

Adam: That last decision in particular around running for the US Senate in Alabama, you are a heavy, heavy underdog, and talk about a risky decision. How do you get comfortable with taking risks with putting yourself out there? Recognizing that there's a good chance that you're going to fail, is something that so many of us struggle with. What advice do you have?

Doug: You only put yourself at risk like that, if you're doing it for the right reasons. It's not a personal ego. It's not for fame and fortune. It's for a higher purpose of somehow telling young people all the time they come to me, and they see that race, they don't think about the fact that I was like 63 years old when I first did that. I wasn't 33 years old. And I waited a long time for the right circumstances. But for people who wanted to get into politics, I said, "Well, you won this race. How did you do that? And what advice would you give him?" And I said," Well, there's a couple of things I would tell you. first of all, you got to do it for the right reason. And that is not about you. It's about the greater good of the community. Because if you get elected, you're not just an office holder, you're a public servant. If you're not going in it to serve the public, then you have no business even trying. So it's got to be for the right reason, not just your ego, not just for the prestige, but because you see that there's potential good in what you might accomplish in that office. So that's number one. And if you don't get past that point, then you can't even worry about number two. And the second point was something actually that Joe Biden said a long time ago, back I think it was 2012 when I was trying to peddle lunch with him and a few others about the 2012 campaign. And he was telling a similar story about people that would come to him. But Joe Biden got elected to the Senate when he was 29 and took office shortly after his 30th birthday. Younger folks, particularly, what can I say? What can I do that will help me get elected? He said, Well, you're, first of all, you're asking the wrong question. The question should be what are you prepared to say and do in which you might lose? Because that's who you are. That's where your heart is. You have to be able to be who you are and authentic for the public to see what they're getting. And I think that was important advice. And I knew that there were things in Alabama that I would be saying, or doing that were not, I would say consistent with polling. I think it's more consistent with people's attitudes and why folks give them credit, but I knew there would be public positions I would be taking that were outside what had been the mainstream in Alabama politics, and still is to some extent, but that was what I was prepared to do to build that platform to give voice to a lot of people.

Adam: Authenticity, whether you're running for office, whether you're leading in any context, is essential. Absolutely. What can anyone do to become a better leader?

 

Doug: I think the better leaders listen more. They seek counsel from more than one source, they do not just want to surround themselves with people that will nod their head yes. And because that instills in other people, that they are valued. And leaders need to make sure that the people surround them, know that they are valued. If you are with people who believe that they are valued, they will help you lead. A leader can't do it all. The leader has to be part of the team and give the direction and the guidance. But it's the team members that also helped lead the charge.

Adam: I liked the example you gave when you described yourself leading your Senate office as a player-coach.

Doug: Yeah, you have to be about that. Folks like that have to set the direction and have to set the tone. But you've also got to be willing to adapt. You have to be willing to understand that circumstances change and you've got to be able to listen and know that you're not always right. And the play that you're calling may not be the right call. If somebody's giving you something else, and they're telling you and it makes sense, you got to be able to adapt. But overall, you set the tone. You set the process. We were talking right before the show about the University of Alabama football, one of the things that made Nick Saban great, was it he was able to adapt within a game. But at the same time, he stuck with a process. He was very, very vocal about his coaches, and his players buying into a process that he had. And when they did that, they knew they were going to have opportunities to influence the outcome of games, but also influence the direction of the program. But it was a process and you can move within that. But that's the framework. And I think great leaders provide that process. But there's a lot of leeway within that process.

Adam: What can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Doug: Well, I'm not a life coach. That is just not something that I've ever done. I just tell folks that they should always follow their moral compass, and be the best that they can be. They're not always going to achieve the great things that you see other people achieving. But it's just like Robert F. Kennedy talked about, is that ripple in a pond. It's the little things. It's the small pebble that can create ripples in a pond. And you can have major impacts, and you don't even know it sometimes. But that is a success. And you can't always Judge your success by someone else's, that is just the wrong way to look at things always judging against somebody else. Look at the success you have enjoy that success. It may be in your family, it may be with your kids, it may be just training your dog, it doesn't matter. Enjoy the successes that you have, that you create, because somebody somewhere is watching us and seeing that. That's that ripple in the pond that will go out to greater things. And if one little success that you have leads in two years or 20 years to someone else building on that for even greater success, then you can take credit for it.

Adam: I don't know if you're planning on running for office again. But if you're not, you might want to pursue a career as a life coach.

Doug: I have plenty going on right now.

Adam: Senator Jones, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Doug: It's my pleasure, hope you have great success and continued success with the program.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally-recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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