I recently interviewed RE/MAX CEO and Former DISH Network CEO Erik Carlson on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:
Adam: Our guest today has served as the CEO of two household name companies in two very different industries. Erik Carlson was the CEO of Dish Network and is the CEO of Remax. Erik, thank you for joining us.
Erik: Adam, thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure to be with you today.
Adam: Pleasure’s mine. You grew up in Hinsdale, Illinois, in the suburbs of Chicago. You’re a huge Chicago sports fan, Cubs, Bears, you have my sympathies. You stayed in Illinois to attend Bradley University before becoming the CEO of two of the best-known companies in America, headquartered in Denver. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What early experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?
Erik: I’m going to go one step further back than Hinsdale, which, as you pointed out, is a western suburb of Chicago. I was born at Christ Hospital and grew up in Beverly for the first six, seven years of my life. I think it was influential because I was the oldest of three, and my dad was a traveling salesperson. He sold printing for large magazines and he was on the road quite often. And so, as I think about experiences that helped shape me, I always go back to like early childhood and parents. And my mom needed help raising my brother and sister. And I took a little bit more of probably a, let’s call it servant leadership. I’m sure we’ll get into that maybe in the future here, but a role of being a little bit more of a mentor, a leader, a helper in order to take care of these two younger kids that were brought into the family as my dad was traveling. My mom needed help, so I was there to help her. Whether it was staying up late watching The Honeymooners or helping change a diaper, I did all that. And so, maybe Ralph Bromden helped to shape some of my leadership skills also. And then maybe not wanting to be a bus driver. But, you know, those early childhood years really certainly helped you out. And my mom was big on rules and a rule follower and really taught me to follow the rules, but to also be there in times of need and if folks need help, be a team player. And so, when I think about leadership and I think about what’s gotten me to where I’m at today, being a team player is a big part of that. I put that on my mom.
Adam: I love it so much there. We can break down. I don’t know how much we want to talk about Jackie Gleason, but I was actually just talking about Jackie Gleason the other day. I was taking an Uber to the airport and was talking to the Uber driver about one of the all-time great movies, The Hustler and Minnesota Fats. When I think about Jackie Gleason, that’s what I think about. But you brought up servant leadership, one of the earliest lessons that you learned from your childhood. What do you believe makes a great leader? What can anyone do to become a better leader?
Erik: That’s a big question, right? And I think there’s not one way into leadership necessarily. But when I think about great qualities and things that make leaders great is I think one is they’re humble and they reward the team. They select great people and put great people around them and allow those great people to do great things and help coach and mentor those folks. So, I think about servant leadership. There’s a lot of lessons in my past that I can reflect on. But it’s really about tipping the pyramid upside down and putting yourself in a position to give your team the tools, the capabilities, the education skills, the confidence they need to be successful in the position you’ve put them in. And so that can be how to be a great sales leader and overcome objections. That can be as simple as framing them with the right tools, such as a computer or physical tools like a wrench, going back to my network days. So, I think leaders have to put their teams in a position to win. And I think they have to coach and mentor and provide the credit to those teams. I also think part of leadership is being constantly curious about how not only your team, but you can get better every day.
Adam: Humility, curiosity, two of the most important characteristics for anyone to become successful as a leader. Can you talk a little bit more about your leadership journey? How did you go from a kid growing up in Hinsdale, Illinois, interested in leadership, interested in business, to the CEO of one of the largest companies in America?
Erik: It’s a long and wonderful journey and it starts out with probably leaving the nest and going on that college journey. I have two kids, we’re empty nesters now, who are on that path and it’s rewarding to see them grow up. And so, when I think about my journey, I think about leaving the Chicagoland area and leaving to go to Peoria, which is about two and a half hours away far enough where I didn’t have to come home and the parents probably weren’t going to come and see me on the weekend. But if I needed to get some laundry done, I could hop on the bus and get there in a few hours. And so, I think it gave me comfort and going to a place where I thought I could thrive and do well and look at the college journey, it’s a lot. It’s about education. It’s about curiosity. It’s about finding yourself. It’s about living on your own. I definitely experienced all aspects of that. As I left college, my dad, as I said, was a career salesperson, so he sold printing. I remember when I was younger, he would come home and I’d ask him how many magazines he sold. And he would say, zero, because he sold big accounts like Sears catalog or a reward catalog, not to date myself. But after like maybe five or six days, my mom could tell I was getting worried about us putting food on the table. And then my dad would come in and say, hey, I sold two today. I sold three. And so. When I think about those experiences, they all helped craft me leaving the nest, going out on my own, exploring my own opportunities and what living on your own and trying to find a job and having a passion. And I had a passion outside of college for trying to sell something. I always think, and when I talk to kids today that are in school, high school, college, trying to find a job, carrying a bag is critical to your success. You’ve got to be a great storyteller. You’ve got to be able to sell. It’s a skill that won’t go away regardless of how good AI gets in the future. And so, I always thought selling was my niche. And so, I tried a couple odd sales jobs. out of school selling copiers and selling hospitality packages, really learning the basics and the fundamentals of sales. And there’s no better way to learn those sales fundamentals than if you’re trying to sell Cutco knives maybe over the summer, or selling a copier back in the day, or working the phone and finding your own leads. And so, I learned all these skills from great mentors that were sales leaders in these couple of jobs that I had out of school. But really, I wanted something more. And I saw an opportunity to come work at then Ecosphere. And it was a startup in my mind. They were just getting ready to launch the Dish Network Service. I was a young guy. I love sports. DirecTV was out on the market with their RCA Dish. And I figured, Adam, if I could come into a ground floor opportunity and really work hard and prove myself at a young age, I could get a lot of responsibility very early. And I also loved Steve Jobs and the way he had reinvented Apple. Now remember, this is 1995. I’m not talking about the Apple of today. But I was enamored by founder-led companies and what founders can create and the passion they have for their products and their services, and I wanted to be part of that. And I found that in Dish and Charlie Ergen, quite honestly. And so, I came to Dish at an early age and my Dish journey is one of many promotions, but also lateral promotions. And so, I spent about half my time in sales and marketing. I spent about a quarter of my time running large scale operations like our installation group or call centers, engineering, IT. And then the last 25% of my journey at DISH was obviously in a CEO, supporting our chairman and helping DISH achieve its goals of creating a 5G network and all those types of things. And so, my journey has been one of a lot of different branches and a lot of different paths, but always founded in the idea that I was trying to get better every day. I was trying to take on more responsibility and really, I was willing to do whatever it took. to get those additional responsibilities. And they always didn’t come easy. Sometimes you get knocked down, but it’s really not about getting knocked down. And I know it’s cliche. It’s about getting back up, reflecting on what happened in the mirror and having that curiosity, that innovation, that intuition to course correct and say, I can get better and I can get that next job. I can get that next opportunity. I can get that next responsibility.
Adam: Erik, you shared a lot there that I want to dive into.
Erik: Sorry Adam, I didn’t mean for you to unpack all that.
Adam: We’ve got 30 minutes, so I’m gonna try my best. The focus on continually getting better, the focus on continually growing, viewing setbacks as nothing more than bumps in the road. You looked at this company and you said, I see an opportunity. I can get in on the ground floor. How can I come in right now and do whatever I can to be of value, to be of service? How can I add value to the people around me? How can I make people’s lives easier? And that’s one of the easiest ways to rise within your career.
Erik: I think that’s right. And I think one way to think about it, to use a sports analogy, is it really is about the team. You know, if you think about an offensive line, they have a certain role and responsibility on every play. But once you accomplish that, you should look left, and you should look right, and maybe even forward and back. But how can I help my colleague? And so, for me, it was definitely about getting my work done. And I think this was maybe where sometimes folks fall a little bit in the trap of, if I’ve done my job and I’ve done it well, then why aren’t I getting advancement opportunities or additional responsibilities? And I think a lot of leaders look for great team players. And I think a great team player not only performs their job responsibility well, but also makes the team around them better. When you think about leadership or you think about a coach, it’s really about getting the best out of the team that you’ve assembled in order to reach that common goal. which could be purpose, the vision, the mission, those types of things. And so, when you think about coaches and you think about leaders, it’s really about making the team better and making sure that you’re devoting the right time, not only to keep yourself fresh and motivated, but also doing the things. And sometimes it gets dirty. Everything is not glorious, but doing those things that can put your team in a position to win and make them better to accomplish that shared vision.
Adam: Erik, another key theme, the focus on intrapreneurship. You looked at Steve Jobs and you said, this is someone who I want to be like, and I’m not going to start my own company, but I’m going to take a job at a company and I’m going to figure out how I’m going to be able to make things happen from within. And I want to know if you could share with listeners Number one, how can anyone working within an organization become a successful intrapreneur? And number two, how can leaders of organizations foster cultures of intrapreneurship?
Erik: A lot there. I think one is I always liked the founder led company because I thought you needed grit and perseverance in order to succeed. I love that aspect of myself and curiosity and the things we talked about ladder up to that. But I like the idea of companies being able to move fast without a lot of bureaucracy. And I think when you’re in a company like that, a lot of founders I found really, it’s a meritocracy at some level. And so, if you prove yourself and you prove you’re a good team player, you can be successful and you don’t have to get caught up in red tape. Not to say that public companies don’t need governance, don’t get me wrong there, but I think it allows you to really use the skills that entrepreneurs have in a way to make you successful within a founder-led entrepreneurial company if you’re an intrapreneur, so to speak. Part of probably my challenge actually, Adam, is risk-taking. And so, I think when I was coming out and finding my next opportunity, I thought, heck, this is a great entrepreneurial company. And if I prove myself, I can do a lot with it. You know, now you struggle with how much risk do you want to take? And I think I always found like entrepreneurs that are willing to, serial entrepreneurs, just take that next risk and fail fast. I always have admired those types of folks. And I found that Jobs was one of those people. It was failing fast, but also his innate ability to look at details, think about what the customer needed and have an absolute passion for what he thought was right and drive that kind of to the end zone. I just love that passion about Steve and other folks. Obviously, Charlie was one and David Remax is another. So, I think there’s a lot to be said for following the path and working for founders with all the unique things that happened in founder led companies. and it really can allow you to use the best of your abilities and not be overcome or sheltered by bureaucracy in some cases or hierarchy.
Adam: You led a Fortune 500 company, massive business, huge organization, and then you switched to a totally different industry, another huge company now in real estate. What have been the keys to leading two very different businesses in very different industries?
Erik: I can tell you that leadership is leadership and business is business at some level. And so, I have a passion for the customer experience. And I think when you think about keeping the customer in mind, and when you think about that upside down pyramid and keeping your team members in mind by supporting your team with the tools, the skills, confidence they need to be successful to ultimately serve that customer and provide a great customer experience. The products are certainly different. There’s no doubt about that. But there’s so many similarities in these two businesses with young entrepreneurs in a community trying to build a business, whether it was selling satellite TV, whether it was selling a Boost Mobile handset, whether it’s selling real estate today, the challenges are very similar. So, what can we do to help those folks build their business? And what can I do to put our team in a place to give them the tools they need to be successful to ultimately serve those customers and serve them for a long period of time? So, when I think about the move, obviously I think most people that are real estate experts have forgotten more than I’ll ever know about real estate. But I’m not here because I’m a real estate expert. I’m actually here because I bring an outsider’s point of view. And I think it’s a valuable lesson for people. that are looking to make a change, challenge themselves with a different opportunity. There’s likely more similarities that you can find than more differences. And you don’t have to be necessarily an expert in the product to be a great leader, but you have to surround yourself with folks that are experts in the product. Again, it goes back to really finding the right people, putting them in the right position to win, and giving them the tools, skills, and confidence they need to really do their absolute best on a day-in and day-out basis.
Adam: I love that. Leadership is leadership. Your job as a leader is to empower the people around you, to help the people around you become their best selves. Your job as a leader isn’t to be the subject matter expert. It’s to surround yourself with experts and help them become as effective as they can be individually and as a team.
Erik: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more.
Adam: What do you look for in the people who you surround yourself with? You’ve led two enormous organizations. You’ve hired so many people. What do you look for in the people who you hire? What are your best tips on the topic of hiring?
Erik: First and foremost, there’s probably two good ways to think about this. One is you have to hire people that are going to be a cultural fit for the organization that you’re leading. And that can be a great culture that you have or the culture that you’re trying to build. But we spend a lot of time with each other at work, sharing stories, working on hard projects, sharing in success. And so, I think you have to be a cultural fit first and foremost. Second, there are very few roles, Adam, where I’m interested in the experience that you bring to the table. I think that you have to have passion. I want folks that have a tremendous amount of grit, an absolute desire and will to get better, and a will to win, and almost be emphatic about collaboration and the team first. I find when we put people together, and they work on high-performing teams, you as an organization can accomplish almost anything with enough time and money. And so, it’s not about had you done this before? Do you have the ability to solve problems? Are you agile enough? Can you work through obstacles? Because as we know in today’s environment, customers’ wants and needs are changing dramatically. Technology is changing at the speed of light. And so, the past doesn’t always dictate the future, although there can be lessons, but you want really good problem solvers that can work on a team and can collaborate in order to get you through those tough challenges or those obstacles or to help you get back up when you’ve been knocked down.
Adam: Cultural fit, passion, grit, will to win, people who are team-oriented, people who are collaborative, people who are flexible, adaptive, agile. How do you find that? How do you evaluate that?
Erik: It’s a great question, and I’ve had years of experience, and I’ll tell you, I don’t think anyone’s an expert at the interview process. Although, I do like to spend time, especially with senior leaders, on multiple occasions. One thing that I’ve found always to be helpful is not only to have, let’s say, a professional interview and a process, but also, I like to have a meal with the person, especially if they’re going to work for me. And I like to do my references. And I’m not talking about the references that people give me. I’m talking about the references that I find on my own. Because a lot of times in a reference, not only are you looking for a yellow or a red flag, but I’m actually looking for signs of green flags that can help me manage the person when they come on board. and help me manage the induction to the team. Because I think the faster you can bring somebody on board, the more productive you can be in helping them reach and achieve their goals and help to support achieving the company’s goals. I can probably be won over in an interview and have a little bias, but if I go get a cup of coffee or a meal, it always helps to extend that process a bit.
Adam: I like that, and I like your advice around looking for the green flag instead of being so focused on the red flag, the yellow flag, and when you’re hiring, looking ahead, looking forward, thinking about not only bringing this person into your organization, but how does this person show up on day one extremely productive, effective, hitting the ground running?
Erik: No, absolutely. Sometimes I think it’s always good for leaders and managers to be constantly interviewing. And I’ll use that with quotation marks for your audio listeners, because it’s not always sitting down chair to chair or across the table, but you might be working on a project with somebody. You might be having a cup of coffee informally. You might be taking somebody out to dinner, going to a ball game, whatever it is. So, I’m constantly looking for talent, whether it’s at industry conferences, dinners that I attend, projects that I may run into with strategic partners, et cetera. You have to constantly be looking for talent and who can help to round out your team and fill those gaps or the opportunities in order to help you achieve your goals. So, a lot of times, Adam, it’s not like I just first met somebody when I’m interviewing. I know of them, or I know them, or maybe they come to the table for an opportunity with us.
Adam: Something you shared, which is interesting, which I want to explore with you, the importance of finding people who are comfortable with change, able to adapt, able to pivot. You’ve led organizations that have been through dramatic changes. You’ve led in industries that have been through dramatic changes. What are the keys to leading through change?
Erik: Well, be true to yourself. Be transparent. Over-communicate. I think managing in crisis, thriving in crisis, or chaos, I like to say, is something that we should be good at because there are a number of controllable events and uncontrollable events. You have to plan and manage the controllable events and focus on those, but also game plan a little bit for the uncontrollable. And so, when you think about managing through change, or you think about disrupting yourself or going after new markets, or maybe even the inventor’s dilemma, which was in front of us at DISH when we launched Sling on top of our current service. So, you’re essentially disrupting yourself. And I think over communicating with employees on what your vision is and why. So that comes back to storytelling as being that key that I referenced earlier by having those sales techniques and being able to tell stories. You need that in order to over-communicate in times of change, in times of chaos, in times of adversity. But also, if you have the right culture. and you have the right team. And that team and culture is agile, understands that change is a constant, that even the organization itself is a dynamic organism. Nothing is static today, especially with technology moving so fast. You have to surround yourself with a team that can adapt. When I think back, to why you were either successful or why maybe you had more challenges than you think you should have. It always comes back to; did you have the right people around you? Did you communicate enough? Did you paint that vision? Did you tell people why? And did you share the details? So, you could build that followership and that support in order to achieve whatever that North Star was at the time.
Adam: Are there any seminal challenges, setbacks, failures in your career as a leader that you can reflect on that you were able to navigate and ultimately learn from that have defined you as a leader?
Erik: Absolutely. I think leadership is great. There’s usually so many successes that you get to share with the team, but there’s almost just as many failures. And I know it’s cliche, but you do want an environment where people take risks, understand what the milestones, the markers, the benchmarks are to achieve success and know if they’re not on the right course and fail fast. And failure really should be embraced, provided you have a team that generally measures twice and cuts once. So, think about doing your best work all the time. But when you’re running a lot of experiments and look at the hyperscalers know this best, you’re going to fail a lot and you have to learn from those failures. So, there’s not one single moment, Adam, but I think as I progressed throughout my career, you got to understand more and more that Failure will bring success. And the first time I learned that was when you go to door-to-door and try to sell copiers in a high-rise in downtown Chicago, every no means you’re closer to the one, yes you might get out of 100 door knocks. And so, when you have that mentality, and you have that perseverance, and you have that grit and determination, you know that failure is just part of growing. And even though you might get knocked down or you might not get the promotion you wanted, reflect back in the mirror for a short period of time, pick an item or two that you think you can work on over the next 30 days to improve yourself, and then go after it and forget about it. Just get back to work and start running it back up the middle.
Adam: Failure is just a part of growing. I love that.
Erik: Now don’t get me wrong; it can be tough. And having two kids that are in college, it’s another important thing. You got to coach your team through it because they’re not all rosy days. But if you can have the mindset about just getting better every day, and look, that doesn’t mean you’re going to take a step forward every day. Some days you’re going to take two steps back, but have that growth mindset and know that you’re on a path and failure will help you achieve that.
Adam: Talking about coaching your team through some tough moments. As a leader, what have you found are the keys to being able to effectively motivate the people who you lead?
Erik: Great question. I think that motivation comes from team members seeing that you’re setting an example. You have to set expectations. You have to set the example for your team. You have to show up every day. You have to reward. I always think try your hardest to criticize in private and to praise in public. I know it’s not always easy. I try to keep a somewhat disciplined mindset. So, I try not to overreact any one way. I think being humble and being transparent and showing people the way. So, I like to use the term, teaching hospital. And maybe that’s because I’ve had to watch too much Grey’s Anatomy with my wife and daughter. But there is an element to, regardless of the TV you’re watching, I always try to get a nugget out of something. This teaching hospital philosophy, look at everyone’s not perfect, including yourself. And so, it goes back to that failure and making mistakes. When people do that, it’s like, hey, how can I help you get better? How can I set you up for success? What happened? Did I put you in the wrong role? Did I bring you there too early? Did I allow you to put that central line in when you weren’t quite ready? But I think you have to have the mindset that, look, we’re just trying to get better every day. We’re going to make mistakes. And so that teaching hospital philosophy, I think, helps to let people know that it’s safe. And generally, folks want to work for a person like that. So that motivates people to try to do their best, especially when they know that risk isn’t going to be rewarded. If failure happens, be rewarded with termination or yelling or anything like that. It’s going to be rewarded with like, hey, let’s try to solve this a better way the next time. And what do we learn from it? And so, staying humble, staying transparent, being supportive. I think it goes a long way to helping to motivate people.
Adam: Leading by example, going back to servant leadership, starts with your mindset, starts with you as a leader, showing up, wanting to make a difference, wanting to positively impact others, and ensuring that your actions align with your words.
Erik: Look, as leaders, we’re just here to help. We got to make some tough decisions too, don’t get me wrong.
Adam: What’s the toughest decision you ever had to make as a leader?
Erik: Terminations are always tough. COVID definitely stressed, I think, a lot of leaders and certainly myself as a leader. I grew a lot. I had a great team around me to help us manage through that. But when you don’t know where the business is going to be, I think terminating or laying folks off is always the hardest decision. It keeps me up at night. And so, it’s never a position that I want to put myself in. Having to lay staff off when It’s not something they did or they’re not meeting expectations, et cetera. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about having to downsize, but you have to do it because you want to save the rest of the folks that are great team members. And so, I think always doing it quickly is helpful, but going through COVID in those early days was definitely tough and was definitely stressful as a leader.
Adam: Having gone through that, what advice do you have for other leaders listening to this conversation who at some point will be facing that same struggle, what would you share with them?
Erik: Well, I think, again, over-communicate. So not too much inside baseball, but one of the things that I started doing with a trusted colleague was I would record seven minutes of video every week to keep the team up to date on the latest and greatest, whether that was from my kitchen, from a studio, from my mobile phone, whatever it was, on-site as we were getting back. When you’re going through a lot of change and crisis, being transparent, being humble, making sure you’re showing the right empathy, being supportive, over-communicating is definitely keys. It’s not just the tone from the top, Adam. You have to spend a lot of time with middle management or senior management because they have to also be telling the same story. When done well, you see a great amount of alignment and you have a team that understands, accepts, and then is ready to get back to work and try to accomplish taking that hill, achieving the vision that you’ve set out. And so I always think with tough decisions, COVID was more of a crisis, but tough decisions, just try to sleep on them overnight. My mom used to tell me that before I’d buy something expensive, but over-communicate. And there’s another person that I listen to quite a bit. He talks about a kitchen cabinet. And so, I think when you have a group of folks that you’re surrounded with that you can reach out to and say, Hey, I’m thinking this, this is what happened. What do you think? And you have that trusted four, five, six people. It definitely helps you want to make decisions faster. And I think it makes your decisions to be more effective in the long term.
Adam: Erik, what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful, personally and professionally?
Erik: Well, one is show up every day and give it your best. Two is accept failure and help the course correct from that, like we talked about. But I do think there’s an element of curiosity. There’s an element of whether you’re reading, attending conferences, talking to a lot of people within your company, within the network that your company supports. I’ll always be trying to find one, the positives and two, just the nugget that you can take back and implement in either your personal or your business life. And so, I think it’s like. Continuous learning is an important aspect of leadership, an important aspect of serving yourself to either be a better husband, dad, coach, leader, manager, worker who’s trying to do their best and grow within a company. And so, if there’s two words, one idea, continuous learning.
Adam: Erik, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.
Erik: Adam, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much.
