I recently interviewed Evan Goldberg on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is the founder of the first cloud computing company acquired by Oracle for more than $9 billion. Evan Goldberg is the founder of NetSuite, a business that currently serves more than 28,000 customers across 215 countries and territories. Evan, thank you for joining us. 

Evan: So glad to be here. 

Adam: Before starting NetSuite and before selling NetSuite for 9.3 billion dollars to Oracle, you spent the first eight years of your career working for Oracle. You started there as a software developer in the late 80s, long before Oracle was a Fortune 100 company with more than 130,000 employees. What are your sharpest memories and best lessons from the early days of your career? 

Evan: Yeah, I mean, it was a really exciting time. The company had about 900 employees, it had seen a lot of success, and they were a big disrupter. And so there was this great sense of possibility. I mean, it was my first experience in Silicon Valley. So it was sort of my dream job. I'd always wanted to develop software. And I was, sort of, right in the heart of it. Immediately moving out from the East Coast, the sense of possibility, the excitement, the optimism, it was infectious. And it made me want to someday have my own company with that same excitement.

Adam: You left Oracle to launch a new company, not the company that you currently run. 

Evan: Yes, my mandatory Silicon Valley failure. And for listeners who aren't aware of it, the company was called Mbed Software. And like NetSuite, it was a business that was also funded by Larry Ellison and myself. That's where I lost all my Oracle stock earnings. So, yeah, we both lost some money on that one.

Adam: Can you talk about that experience? 

Evan: Look, you know, I kind of make light of it. But at the time, it was unpleasant. And it was a sad state of affairs for everybody that was involved. I had employees and I had to let them go. And I kept the core of that company and became the founder of NetSuite. But whenever you go through that wrenching process and realize that this might not work, it's not fun. It certainly is motivating for you not to want to have that happen again. But obviously, you know, every time you go out there and take a risk, there's certainly a very good chance that this is going to happen. And one of the things that I learned, though, really led to the, sort of, germination of NetSuite was that I didn't have great information about that business. I would not point to that as the ultimate reason for the business's failure. We had some intense competition from, sort of, an entrenched company that bought another competitor of ours. And that really was what led to the downfall. But it didn't help that our systems were a mess. And I imagined that big companies had much better systems to keep track of their customers and their sales and their finances and all these things. I mean, we had that stuff in like five different systems. And they weren't in the cloud, that's for sure. They were on somebody's computer, different computers. So that was a motivator for me to say there's got to be a better way for fast growing small businesses to get a handle on what's going on. And that was really the kind of driving force behind NetSuite.

Adam: How did you know that it was time to cut your losses?

Evan: I mean, you know, certainly our revenue was flatlining. And that's not where you want to be as a startup. I could see the writing on the wall that though we had some unique capabilities in our product, the competitive product, which turned out to be Flash, had its own set of unique capabilities. And furthermore, because they had been bought by Macromedia, which became part of Adobe, they had the marketing muscle that we just, you know, we wouldn't be able to. And I could see that they were going to become a standard for what we did, which was highly interactive websites. And in fact, they did. I mean, it had a long Flash and had a long history. Eventually, it reached its demise far, far later. But the other thing is, I really became interested in business software. Obviously, I worked at Oracle. But a lot of stuff I did at work was making business software easy to use. And that's all great. And that's a current that went through my career. But this, I really wasn't necessarily as passionate about the business software itself until I needed it for my own business. And then that was sort of the ‘aha’ moment of like, “Wow, lots of companies like me must be running into the same problem”. So I think, you know, it was a combination of seeing that what I had was not going to work and having a new idea that looked really promising.

Adam: To that end, what advice do you have for those listening who might not have the same level of clarity, whether they're entrepreneurs, whether they're working at jobs, trying to figure out whether it's the right moment to pivot? What would you tell them? 

Evan: Well, I don't think there's ever really a bad moment for a great idea. And it's really, of course, everybody has their unique circumstances and their risk tolerance. You know, one thing is, when things are looking kind of gloomy in the economy, it turns out to be often a great time that, you know, 1000 flowers sort of bloom after the forest fire. And they're, sort of, just dislocations that happen. Obviously, we're seeing that now in this very, sort of, unique circumstance. But in any kind of circumstance where there's a lot of change, and that change can be downward change, that presents a lot of opportunity. So I wouldn't be daunted necessarily, if, you know, the economy is not doing great, or the stock market is down or whatever, that may actually present a really, really good time to do it. Of course, everybody has their unique circumstances, whether they have, you know, the security to do that. But there's always a great time for a great idea.

Adam: You mentioned how you came up with the big idea for NetSuite, the 9 billion-plus dollar idea? How did you turn this big idea into what it's becoming? What advice do you have on how to take an idea and turn it into a real and big and powerful business?

Evan: Well, I mean, there's no doubt that you generally need investors. And I had a really good one, Larry Ellison. And in fact, the idea was really a joint idea. I mean, I had this idea running around my head that I wanted to do business software for startups. And he, you know, in the course of basically a five-minute phone conversation, I mean, he called me and he said, “How's your graphics stuff?”. That's what he called Mbed. I said, “Ah, not great. Flash is Macromedia and it is sort of eating our lunch. I have this new idea. I want to do business software”. And he said, “Okay, well, if you're going to do that, you need to start with accounting. And you need to do it on the web”. And those were really two of the unique value propositions that we ended up having. Obviously, you said, you know, as the first sort of cloud business software company, that really was driven by him. So having, you know, a great mentor, having a great investor who'll stick with you through thick or thin, that's helpful. Not everybody can get Larry Ellison, though. But having the mentorship and having investors that believe in you, and aren't going to run, you know, when things turn south because you're gonna have definitely two steps forward one step back, that's critical.

Adam: How did you develop the relationship that you have with Larry Ellison? You were a junior employee at Oracle. It's unusual for someone, junior at a company, to develop such an intimate relationship with someone like Larry Ellison. How did that happen? What can listeners learn from that?

Evan: You know, there's luck involved. I mean, it was sort of the right place at the right time. What I'll say about Larry is, he's really, really interested in the technology, and I was a technologist. So that's, sort of, what we initially bonded on. I do think that who your mentor is going to be and who your investors are going to be, obviously varies widely and differently. And often you have several people that are helping you, and everybody sort of brings a different value to the table. And so I would look outside, it’s not necessarily the most obvious closest group, but it's where you're going to get your inspiration.

Adam: How did you and Larry meet?

Evan: Well, he interviewed me. So that was, you know, that was, sort of, his thing. I mean, even at 1000 people, he was still basically interviewing everybody in the company. He was very hands-on. He liked that I'd won some math contests. So he took a particular interest when I was in high school. So he took a particular interest in me. You always have these moments you look back on that are maybe some seminal moments in your career. For me, it was actually when he, kind of, shoehorned me into the core database team that was doing the core database software, the guts of Oracle, you know, the crown jewels. And the manager didn't want me because I was not a computer science major. Actually, I was a math major. And Larry was like, “Oh, he'll learn it. It'll be fine. You know, just get in the book”. See, his programming language, you know, way back in the day, sort of, a predecessor of Java and more modern languages. But you know, the thing was, I didn't actually like being in that core team that did that stuff that was so removed from the user mode. I always was interested in, sort of, helping people in their daily lives with the software that I write. And so, a year later, Marc Benioff started the Mac group at Oracle. And I was really intrigued by that. And yet this team that I belonged to was so prestigious. I thought, “Is this the right thing for me to do? Should I leave this super prestigious team that everybody wants to be on?”. Because I actually find user interface and user experience and making software better for people in their daily lives more interesting and more fulfilling. And Larry passed me in the hall and he said, “I hear you're thinking of going into the Mac group with Mark. You know, if I were at your point in your career, I would. That's definitely what I would do”. And of course, you feel anointed by holy water when that happens. And so, sure enough, I made that choice. And it was a great choice for me because that's really, ultimately, when I had no clue that my entire career really has been about that. Which was making great software that's easy to use and accessible and helps people in their daily lives, in my case, in their daily lives as an entrepreneur.

Adam: And I want to highlight a couple of points you made when I asked you, how did you connect with Larry Ellison. The first thing you said was, “Oh, it was just luck”. But in reality, so many people have great luck. It's a matter of capitalizing on your luck. It's a matter of being prepared when you have that opportunity. And what did you have? You had everything going for you in that you share common interests with Larry Ellison. You were in a position where you not only were interviewing with Larry Ellison, not that many people are getting interviews where they're interviewing directly with Larry Ellison, but you presumably did well enough that he took an interest in you, he took a liking in you. And while you were at Oracle, you demonstrated a willingness and an eagerness to take chances. And you are someone who is entrepreneurial. And that's something that clearly struck a chord in Larry, and helped really accelerate that relationship.

Evan: Yeah, and I mean, obviously everybody has opportunities throughout their career to interact with people that are in a position to help them. And I agree that capitalizing on those opportunities is critical. And coming into those opportunities knowledgeable, but also with a just a, you know, really positive, optimistic view of the future. That's ultimately, I think, what people are attracted to.

Adam: Larry Ellison is clearly one of the most successful entrepreneurs and one of the most successful leaders. You are one of the most successful entrepreneurs and one of the most successful leaders. In your experience, what are the key characteristics of a great leader? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Evan: I'm not the world's leadership expert. I have my own unique style, as many people do. I mean, obviously, you need to be authentic, you need to be yourself; that's where it starts. But it's not unfettered. It's sort of controlling yourself. You want to empathize with people. And so, how you present yourself, and how you be yourself. You want to put yourself in their shoes and say, “If I were that person, what would I respond to?”. And that means understanding the people that work for you, and people that work directly for you, of course, probably most importantly, but your entire organization. They're going to come from very different walks of life. They're going to have very different personal experiences. And yet, they're also going to have common interests and experiences and, kind of, balance that empathy of how people are different. But also, you know, taking those parts of yourself that people can really, really relate to, and bringing those forward and emphasizing those. I think, for me, that's sort of the combination that works.

Adam: What are the keys to leading a company, like you've led NetSuite, through such growth? How do you grow and scale a company?

Evan: Well, again, it definitely comes from a belief in your vision. And I believe that the most successful companies are very consistent with their vision. They know when they're getting off track. You will get off track, there's no straight line to success. But understanding when that's happening, and the, sort of, risk-reward ratio there, and making those key choices, is important. You know, I think you have to present enthusiasm in everything you do. People have to see that enthusiasm. That enthusiasm becomes infectious. And you have to be the biggest evangelist for your vision. For us at NetSuite, you know what our vision is, you know that you have everything you need to grow as a business all in one place. And you always have to lead in that, you know, what is the core of your value proposition. You have to be the evangelist for that, you have to be the protector of that, as a leader, because there'll be silos in your organization that want to go off in some different direction, and it's not strategic. And so, you have to be the one to rent, first of all, to obviously bring them back towards the sort of Northstar. But you also just need to be constantly evangelizing about that Northstar, so that everybody can just kind of say it like a mantra. NetSuite is about everything you need to grow as a business all in one place. They all should really understand that and internalize that. That's your responsibility.

Adam: Oracle didn't have NetSuite when you were an employee there as they were growing in the 80s and 90s. NetSuite didn't have NetSuite as NetSuite was growing in its early days. What were some of the key variables as you look back? Were there any specific things that were instrumental to Oracle's growth, to NetSuite growth, that listeners of this podcast can take and apply directly to their businesses?

Evan: Well, I'm gonna answer that maybe a little bit differently, because I think you brought up a really good point. I mean, NetSuite didn't use NetSuite for like, its first six months, because it didn't exist yet. We used QuickBooks. Not to name drop it but, at a party at Larry Ellison's, I met Steve Jobs. And he said, “Larry is so excited about your thing where you run a business and do accounting in a browser. But does anyone want to do that?”. And I was, kind of like, “Uh, I don't know. I think so. Larry's pretty sure”. But, you know, that was, sort of, Larry's thing. My thing was, everything should work together. And it should be everything you need for your business. It had to be maybe a week or two later, we actually got NetSuite working inside of NetSuite, like, you know, our business was there. We uploaded our QuickBooks file, I was at home, and I looked in my browser, and there was everything I needed to know. Is this all in one place? And I was like, “Oh, yeah, this is gonna work”. So I mean, obviously, it's not always the case that you get to build a product for yourself. And there are minefields there, because you're not necessarily the perfect customer or the exact customer. But when you can, as they say, eat your own dog food, it's a big advantage as long as you keep that perspective that it's not just about you. And you know, I think that was true at Oracle. Oracle used Oracle for a lot of its own stuff. And all of its systems are based on its own software. So, you know, if you can do that, and it's not always the case, I mean, you might be developing something for someone that's completely different than you. But when you can do that, you know, I assume Tom Ford wears his own clothes.

Adam: Have you read my mind? Rebecca Minkoff, who's a guest on this podcast, she's wearing Rebecca Minkoff clothing. 

Adam: What do you look for in the people you hire? And what are your best tips on the topic of hiring?

Evan: Yeah, hiring is very, very tough. And obviously, the best recommendation, or you know, the best evidence you can get that someone's going to work out is when someone you trust has worked with them before. But obviously, you can't do all your hiring based on, you know, one degree of separation. Interviewing is a very challenging process to learn what you need to know in a couple hours. It's hard. I don't have any magic there. You know, people are trying to be more quantitative about that and more analytical and have, you know, tests and things like that. And some of that certainly might be helpful. I wish I had better advice on that. If you can hire people that have worked with people, you know, references that are sent by employees, and you don't know the person, they don't have a ton of value. So the connection, making connections ultimately and having a great network so that you can tap into that network of people you trust, to find people that they trust. That's the best way to build an organization. You know, when you can't, I mean, it's not practical to do that, especially as you get larger, certainly in the early days that I would strongly recommend that.

Adam: What do you specifically look for when you're hiring people? Over the years you've hired many people. What are the characteristics that you deeply value? And what are some of the characteristics that you think leaders should not necessarily look at as closely as they often do? 

Evan: Look, you see it in sports. I mean, there's great individual contributors that are not great team players. And they move from team to team, they don't necessarily have that long-term success. So being a team player, that, to me, is the most important characteristic. And when people are not team players, it can infect your organization, and you can lose a lot of people actually relatively quickly when that infection takes hold. So maintaining that culture, that team-oriented culture, where people respect each other and people celebrate each other, that's critical, in my opinion, to an organization's success. So that's the first thing I look at is, is this person going to be a great team player? And then beyond that, do they have that enthusiasm? You know, there's only one founder. I've been actually quite surprised by, you know, when you get individuals in the organization that take it personally. And you're like, “Wow, and you're not even the founder”. So people that have that sort of enthusiasm, and that's one of the things you should be asking others is, did they show enthusiasm? Did they take it personally? Did they make it part of their existence? You know, it's their work existence, but still, did it become something that was personal for them? And those are the people that obviously are the ones that are going to go above and beyond to help make your organization successful.

Adam: Evan, you emphasize the importance of bringing people in who are team-oriented and building a team-oriented culture. And to that end, how can leaders foster a winning culture? What are your best tips on the topic?

Evan: We work really hard on that. And as you grow, it becomes harder and harder, you know, the big faceless organization. And we constantly strive to sort of make NetSuite feel small again. It's really hard in the pandemic, I mean, you just have a bunch of talking heads on Zoom, they go off. There's not very much personal interaction. I think that personal interaction, you got to kind of almost artificially foster that now because it won't happen otherwise. And I mean, I'm sure many of your listeners are aware of, you know, in their organizations, people that have been hired since the pandemic and haven't actually physically met their boss. So, we like to think of our culture as sort of low-key intensity. And what that means is that we try to avoid the drama. And if you hire people that are team players, you'll have a lot less drama, but also that we can relate to each other as individuals regardless of where we come from, our backgrounds. And we, you know, strive to have as diverse a group of people to match the sort of diversity of our audience for NetSuite. But that, you know, you can relate to people as individuals. You work with these people for 40 to 50, whatever hours a week. They got to be people that you like, and of course, that's not going to always be true. But again, I think, you know, fostering that people can be themselves, putting their authentic selves to work, and that it's appreciated and respected and celebrated. And that's what we continually try to do across, you know, whatever people bring to the organization, whatever background they bring.

Adam: Have you found anything in particular that's worked well in this environment, in this virtual environment, to help create the kind of culture that we're all trying to engender?

Evan: You know, we try in our team meetings to have some time for people to just talk about what's going on. And you don't have to if you don't want to. It can be about anything. Just giving some time for people to relate on other levels besides, you know, what's the next thing we have to do? We've done a number of, kind of, fun team things such as trivia contests and stuff. And it sounds kind of hokey, but people came away saying, you know, that it was great to just, kind of, just do something totally, not mindless, but totally unconnected to work. That we could talk to employees about everything and anything that we want to and, you know, those have been good at fostering some of those, sort of,  relationships that otherwise would, you know, in this environment, don't get built.

Adam: How can leaders foster innovation and creativity? So much of entrepreneurship not only starts with coming up with that big idea but nurturing the idea, developing the idea into a business. What can leaders do to help make that happen?

Evan: Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, you just have to foster an environment where people feel like it's safe to come up with outside-the-box ideas and that they will be given consideration. Of course, outside-the-box ideas are riskier, some of them won't end up working. That's the whole idea there, sort of, high-risk and high-reward thinking. And, you know, you have to have an environment where people feel like it's safe to make those suggestions and the organization will be good with it. And that someone, whatever walk of organizational life they come from, that they'll be celebrated when their idea is used, that it won't be stolen by someone higher up in the organization. That credit will be given where credit is due. I hate to go back to my favorite basketball team, the Golden State Warriors, but, in their first championship series against Cleveland, Steve Kerr pulled out Andre Iguodala and said, “You're starting”. And that was a big change. And he said, “But this wasn't my idea. It was, you know, one of our video guys that said, ‘Why don't you do that?’”. And so, when people know that they're going to be given credit, regardless of where they're from in the organization for great ideas, typically, we'll get a lot more.

Adam: I was going to be a little bit resentful for you bringing up the Warriors as a Laker fan. It's been a hard time to be a Laker fan. One of the few times it's been a hard time to be a Laker fan but, I'm a big fan of Steve Kerr. So, as soon as you mentioned Steve Kerr, I lit up and actually just had Kenny Lofton on the podcast who was a college teammate of Steve Kerr. So big fan all the way around of Steve Kerr.

Evan: Yeah, totally. And I mean, I think, you know, that goes back to when you talked about leadership. I mean, I think learning from leaders of all walks of life, and all pursuits, whether that be sports, politics, business, you know, great not for profit leaders, or, you know, across the board, religious leaders. I mean, there are great leaders. And finding those characteristics and learning about them. I mean, that, to me, is really intriguing. I love reading biographies of great leaders. And actually, I have a book about Steve Kerr that I'm about to pop open. So it's a lot to learn, even if it's not in your particular discipline.

Adam: I could not agree with you more. And that's one of the key themes of this podcast, the core principles of effective leadership, the core principles of success, are universal. And so much of what you hear from great entrepreneurs like yourself, great CEOs, great military leaders, Hall of Fame athletes, are universally applicable. And one of those principles which you just shared, it's okay to make mistakes, it's okay to fail. In fact, if you're too afraid to make a mistake, if you're too afraid to fail, you're never going to be able to achieve anything great, you're never going to be able to achieve any kind of meaningful success. So don't be afraid to try and don't be afraid to try big.

Evan: Well, it's like what Thomas Edison said, “I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work”.

Adam: I love that. What are your best tips for anyone listening, whether they're an entrepreneur in their early beginnings, whether they're someone thinking about starting a business, whether they're an entrepreneur in the later stages, best tips for entrepreneurs?

Evan: Well, I mean, you got to just to make that leap. Once you make the leap, you're half done. Then things take on their own momentum and realize that there's generally nothing irrevocable in life, there's lots of roads you can take. I would strongly recommend, I think, if you have a great idea, go with it. It sounds simple but it's hard. I see it among, you know, my friends and colleagues, that people have that self-doubt, and there's worry and concern. And of course, you always, you know, have your particular situation, you have to be mindful of that. But in my career, again, you talked about, sometimes you'll fail, and you have to be okay with that. That was my experience and I just jumped into the next one. And I think that's the attitude you need to have if you're going to be a successful entrepreneur, that there's going to be failure.

Adam: We spoke about an early failure and you've obviously had tremendous success. Have you had, I'm guessing you've had, we've all had moments of self-doubt. Can you share one of those with listeners and how you were able to overcome it? 

Evan: Well, I just tried to focus on what I know I'm good at. I always felt like I was a very creative programmer. And so, you know, that's where it sort of started. I felt like I had that creativity and that I could draw on that resource in whatever sort of circumstance I was in, even if it was a negative circumstance. So you know, when things go wrong, and there's been plenty of things that have gone wrong at NetSuite. It doesn’t mean you're not a real company. I haven't had that, you know, I just tried to draw on what I know are my strengths. And, of course, you know, I know that I'm a flawed human being like everybody else. And I just try to figure out which things I'm good at and which things I'm not that great at, and then supplement things I'm not great at with great partners and colleagues. That's one of the most important things, knowing what you're not good at. It's one of the most important aspects of leadership because that's where you need to supplement and, you know, I think a lot of great leaders go deep in one particular area, and they've shown that they can learn very deeply, that they can practice discipline, and get very, very good at something. But then, you know, to be able to move to the next level, it doesn't necessarily mean that you become that great at a bunch of other things. It's that you take what you’ve learned about that process. And we talk about learning from other leaders and completely different disciplines. Take what you learn as a leader and as a practitioner in that area, and see and find other people that exemplify those same approaches and other areas that you're not as strong at. And that's your team.

Adam: Evan, I love it. What can anyone listening do to become more successful, personally and professionally?

Evan: That's a pretty broad question.

Adam: That's why I ask it.

Evan: Yeah, well, I mean, I think we've talked a lot about believing in yourself and being willing to make that leap. Have that, you know, have that belief that life is gonna throw you twists and turns and that's okay. Draw on your strengths and supplement yourself with great people that you trust. And finding those, as we talked a little bit about, finding those that can be a challenge. But lean on your mentors and your network to build a team that also exemplifies those, a team that believes in itself, that knows its strengths, and that is enthusiastic about the vision. And then be true to your vision. You'll have twists and turns and the roads of the Northstar will not be straight. But ultimately everything comes back to, why are you doing this? And what is your fundamental value proposition? What are you delivering to the world? And how does this next opportunity get you at least somewhat in that direction?

Adam: Evan, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Evan: Well, I hope some of it was useful and thanks for giving me the time.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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