I recently interviewed Gary Freidman on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today led the turnaround of one of America's most successful retailers, and is a member of the Forbes 400 list. Gary Friedman is the CEO of RH formerly known as Restoration Hardware, which he joined as CEO in 2001, when the company was on the verge of bankruptcy. Gary, thank you for joining us.

Gary: Thank you for having me, Adam.

Adam: Your background is a little different than the typical large-cap CEO. You don't have an MBA, but you have a PhD from the school of hard knocks. You grew up with a single mom who battled mental illness her whole life, you lived on food stamps, were evicted multiple times, your academic career ended in community college with a D average. What were the most important lessons you learned from those early days? And how did your upbringing shape your worldview and shape you as a leader?

Gary: You know, I like to say I'm probably the least likely guy to be doing what I'm doing. And, you know, because we never lived in a home and never had any real furniture and were never really exposed to luxury. But I think what I did have is a loving mother who had really an incredible imagination, a great sense of optimism and passion. And she was always dreaming and doing so, I had a really good example, in my early life. Even though my early life was one that was really filled with a lot of things that that most people would look at as the things you'd hate in this world that I think because I grew up with and was exposed to very little in my life, I was able to learn a lot as I retained, you know, kind of a naive and childlike curiosity throughout my life when you're not exposed to very much. I think everything throughout my adult life seemed like it was just really new and exciting. So I had a childlike view of the world, you know, probably at a later stage in life than many. And you know, I look back, I just feel very fortunate from just having the struggles that we had, the challenges we had, you know, having someone like my mom and seeing her navigate through those challenges. When I look back, one thing I've learned in my life, I've never been able to make a correlation between money and happiness. I've had as little as anybody I know and I have as much as most people I know. And, you know, you realize that life really isn't about the financial rewards. It's really about the learning rewards and the growth rewards that you go through just experiencing life.

Adam: How can anyone live a happy life, in your experience? What are the keys to finding happiness?

Gary: We say, at our age, that our business strategy is really simple. We do what we love, with people that we love, for people that love what. We do. And you know, I found in my life, no matter whether it's business, or when I was a young boy in school, or you know, any sports that I got into, just finding something you're passionate about, and something you really love to do. And I say a lot to people that you have to fill your own hole in life, you know, no one else will fill it for you. And what I mean by that is, well, it's important that we're, you know, we're loved and we have great relationships, see, the most important relationship we have is the one with ourselves. And you know, I've always found in my life, I'm most happy when I make myself happy, not through anything anybody gives me or love relationships and family relationships. And all those are important, you know, a sense of self, and which comes from, I believe, just again, filling your own hole, finding something you're passionate about doing, something you really love. And if you're lucky enough to do that with people that you love, and if you can figure out how to monetize that in a business by having a business that people love what you do, then to me, that's the secret to happiness.

Adam: I love that. Something that I tell audiences that I speak to is you want to try to check three boxes. You want to try to find something that you're good at, you want to try to find something that you're passionate about, and you want to try to find something that makes a positive impact in the lives of others. And if you find something that checks all three of those boxes, it doesn't feel like work, it feels like it's fun, you can wake up at five o'clock in the morning and start going and keep going until you fall asleep.

Gary: Exactly, I had to look back on my career and it's never really been work. I've never thought about it that way. It's just, I just feel blessed to do something that I love to do. And I've been blessed to do it with people that I love doing it with. And what we do and what I've been able to do is do something that I deeply believe in. It's really not so much about the specific aspects of selling furniture, or being at The Gap, selling clothes or anything like that. It's really just about pursuing your passion, doing great work that you think is meaningful, great work that will inspire others. That vision in our company is not the one I talked to Wall Street about, because they’d probably locked me up. But we say our vision is to create an endless reflection of hope, inspiration and love that will ignite the human spirit and change the world. And we believe that each of us has our own authentic light. And when we shine that light, when we express the very best of ourselves, that light can lift the spirits of others and lift the hopes of others and that light can keep reflecting. And we say by chasing our hopes and dreams, we inspire others to chase theirs. And by fearlessly fighting for what we believe in, we encourage others to do the same. So we say this, this is not just a platform that sells furniture. It's really a platform to change the world.

Adam: I love that. And I want to ask you about your first significant professional experience. You were a community college student. And like so many students across America in your day, in my day, you took a part-time job at The Gap. Before long, you became the youngest manager in company history. Then the youngest district manager in company history, then the youngest regional manager in company history. What did you do that allow you to excel and to rise early on in your career?

Gary: I kind of outworked everybody else. I just felt so fortunate, so lucky to have a job. And I didn't take anything for granted. And I think I found something that I was naturally good at and was naturally good at retail. No, no, what I was good at, I think, I was good at arranging and organizing things. I see the world in a very visual way. I wasn't a good student in school because I couldn't learn traditionally. And back then they didn't assess kids the way they do now and customize, you know, learning that they have now. But, I couldn't read very well. If I just read words, it goes in one ear and out the other. If I hear words, I try to transcribe words in my head, but when I see things, I have almost a photographic memory and I can arrange and organize things very well. And so it made me kind of a natural presenter. I'm good with numbers because they're like symbols. And so I can arrange symbols in my head. But I don't think there's anything that replaces passion and persistence and not giving up. So a lot of times young people will ask me if they're interviewing for the company or I'm speaking to students who are about ready to graduate school or college. And I always say, “Look, if you want to give yourself the best chance at anything, just don't let anybody else work for you.” I've put a lot into my career; I've had to earn everything. And it's given me a great appreciation. And it's given me a great sense of pride, if you will. And those things that drive a kind of self-respect and pride in individuals, it can fuel you. And I think when I see people who are somewhat lost in their career,  they're not really doing something they love, or they're just really not putting in the effort. I think you get out of life, what you put into life. And I've learned that everything I've been involved in, whether it was sports or school or whatnot, you know, I kind of got out of it, what I put into it. I mean, I wasn't a great student, but I didn't really put in a great effort. It was very hard for me. But, while I was at school, I was a pretty great athlete. I was number one on my tennis team for four straight years. I had a pretty successful basketball career. So whatever I found myself getting into, I really put my heart and soul into it. And sometimes you have to choose. I tell people, “You're not going to be great at everything. So find the things you really love to do. Put your heart and soul into it.”

Adam: Those are great lessons and something that I believe in very strongly is that most people in life are bad at most things, or are good at a few things. And we all have that one thing that we're truly special at, it's that one thing that makes us unique, makes us different. It's our superpower. And you were able to identify that superpower. And to the extent that anyone listening to this conversation can figure out what it is that makes you special, what it is that makes you unique, what it is that makes you different. The more successful you're going to be, the more successful you're going to be in life, the more successful you're going to be in business, the more successful you're going to be as a leader, you can't focus on being great at everything. To your point, Gary, you're never going to be great at everything. Understand what you have the potential to be great at, and go all in.

Gary: I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.

Adam: You and I were introduced by a previous guest on this podcast, who happens to be your longtime mentor. He's the former CEO of The Gap, Mickey Drexler. How did you and Mickey develop a mentor-mentee relationship? What role has that relationship and mentorship more broadly played in your career? And how can anyone find a great mentor?

Gary:  Sure, well, it's interesting how our relationship started. I never worked directly for Mickey. I was levels below him. And Mickey joined The Gap at a time when I was a store manager. But again, I get these lucky interactions sometimes that aren't so lucky. On my days off when you work in retail, you're generally working on the weekends and my days off would be during the week. And on my days off, I would go into Gap corporate headquarters. Many of my days off, I would spend my days folding clothes and what they called “store one”, which is our little room where the merchants would set up presentations for a new season. And this one day I was there. I mean, I was kind of always around. Two people used to call me Gary Gap. I volunteered for everything, you know, but this one day I was in store one and folding some sweaters and Alan Read, the head of women's merchandising Isami, was walking by. He said, “Hey, the new guy, the new president is having an all-hands meeting in the lunchroom and said you should come” and I said, “But I don't work here”, and he said, “Well just come anyway”. And so I went down to the lunchroom. There were probably a couple hundred people in the lunchroom. And Mickey, I think he had been with a company for maybe about a month or so. And he got up in front of people he was on, you know, on a little podium. And Mickey was talking to everyone about how we needed to make clothes at The Gap that everyone in the company wanted to wear. We needed to improve the style and we needed to improve the quality. And the fit in the clothes had to be cool. And Mickey held up a picture of Ralph Lauren wearing a denim jacket and said we needed to sell denim jackets. And back then I was actually working in The Gap. I didn't like the clothes and was saving all my money because I was going to move to New York to work for Ralph Lauren, because my whole closet had like every color of polo shirt, and so on and so forth. But everything he said kind of resonated with me intellectually and intuitively. And then he asked the group a couple of questions. And one of the questions he asked, kind of, this spirit moved me and I kind of got goosebumps. I felt this kind of rush through my body. And I raised my hand, you know, and then I kind of blurted out an answer, and I can't really remember what I said. But he said, he goes, “That's right. That's exactly what we should be doing”. And then he asked my name and I said, “Gary Friedman”, and he said, “What department do you work in?”, and I said, “I don't work here”. And he says, “What do you mean you don't work here?”, and I said, “Well, I’m the manager of the Market Street store, I come here on my days off to kind of help out”. And he goes, “What's your name again?”, and I said, “Gary Friedman”. He goes, “Gary, okay”. So the very next day, I get a call from corporate headquarters, and I answered the phone. It's a story, I say, “Hi, this is Gary from The Gap, can I help you?'' and this woman says, “Hi, Gary, this is Deb, Mickey’s secretary; he would like to know if you could be at the executive leadership meeting today. At two o'clock in the boardroom”. I'd never been to the boardroom. I've never been to the top floor at The Gap. But I, kind of, said yes. I remember buying myself a brand new white shirt off the sale rack. I'd gotten one of my system managers to cover for me and I went to this meeting and got there 45 minutes early. I was so nervous and she sent me down to the boardroom and there was this big long sherry wood table. I've never seen a boardroom in my life. I think I was 21 years old. And there's all these big leather seats in the end nose area. So go have a seat, and everybody will be there in about half-hour, probably a half-hour. And I see these two folding chairs against the wall. So I go sit in one of these folding chairs. I'm just waiting, waiting, waiting. The executives of The Gap aren't showing up, then Mickey kind of flew in. And Mickey starts talking to the group. And then he sees me in the corner and he goes, “Gary, right?”. And I go, “right?”. He says, “Gary, what are you doing sitting against the wall? Sit at the table”. I sit in one of the big leather seats, and he tells everybody, “Gary's here”. He says, “Gary, you're going to be the voice of the stores, you're going to tell us what really happens in this FM company.”

Gary Freidman: He used to call me, “effing Friedman”. Like that. I used to say, I don't smoke, I don't drink and I don't swear. And then I worked for Mickey. And then I picked up that habit. He invited me to a couple meetings like that. And then every once in a while, he called me to see storage with him. And I got this level of exposure. And it was awesome. Most of the things he said in that meeting, ‘cause I was a 21-year-old kid, was going over my head. But most of it resonated with me intellectually, intuitively, I kind of got his logic, like I could track with his logic. And I really appreciated how he simplified things. And that is what stuck with me my whole career. I know that Mickey's great abilities simplify, you know, and I would say inside our organization that we have to battle complexity, with simplicity. And I've learned that most of the really smart people that I've studied and smart leaders in the world are the ones that just have this great ability to simplify whether Steve Jobs or Elon Musk or if you really studied, the Albert Einstein's of the world. And you read their words and their quotes, their ability to distill things down to just super simple messages that can translate and permeate through an organization. And then through my career, after I left The Gap, and the only reason I left The Gap, I mean, I thought it was gonna be the president of The Gap someday. Very optimistic kid. But as the company got bigger, my relationship with Mickey was just a little bit more distant, because I can't, you know, grow the company to become the biggest apparel company in the world. And when the president of a company likes you, and your career moves quickly, there's a lot of people that don't like you. And it's working for some people that, for some reason, they didn't like me. I think because Mickey liked me, they felt threatened. So I went on an interview, the only interview I ever went on, with William Sonoma. They were looking for a senior vice president of stores and operations. I went on this practice interview, and they offered me this big job; that’s the only reason I left. But what I didn't leave is, I didn't leave the relationship with Mickey. I had told him that the only reason I have an opportunity to, kind of, have this new level of job was because of what I learned from him and the exposure. He gave me the ability to just listen to him and watch him build this great company. And through the years, I kept that connection. So I just kept reaching out to him every Thanksgiving. I think I've sent him an email or a text every Thanksgiving. Thanking him every year and appreciating that I'd never be where I was today if I didn't have that opportunity. If he didn't pick out this young kid and invite me to that meeting. And then just take a level of interest in me even if I didn't spend a lot of time with Mickey. So it's not about the amount of time you get with anyone. It's about these quality nuggets of things that you could listen to and learn from him; because he took that little bit of interest in me because there was this kind of connection. I hung on every word. And to this day, I would say a good part of the logic and framework of my leadership style, my approach to strategy and business comes from this kind of simple kind of penetrating ideas that Mickey had.

Adam: Gary, I want to ask you about leadership. But before I do, what is your best tip for anyone listening on how to find a great mentor?

Gary: I would say you don't even need to know your mentor. You can, for instance, Wall Street jokes around about how much I quote Steve Jobs. And so, I never worked with Steve Jobs. But I feel like I know Steve Jobs. And I will tell you that Steve Jobs has been a mentor to me because I watched every YouTube video I could find and there's ones that you can find from when he was in his 20s. You know, there's incredible lessons there. Elon Musk is a mentor to me right now. And I've never met Elon Musk. Simon Sinek, who has this incredible TED Talk, How Great Leaders Inspire, and is a mentor to me. So, you know, mentors don't have to be people that you actually work with. If you're lucky to have those interactions, great, capitalize them on them. But I've learned so much just trying to study the people who have really done great work in this world. And what I've found is whether it's Mickey Drexler, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Bernard or, no, Warren Buffett. There's so many people, you know, Albert Einstein, you name them. There is a real consistency in their ability to simplify. There's a real consistency in their logic. There's just incredible clarity in their ability to distill things down and communicate. So I don't necessarily believe you have to find a Mickey Drexler like I did. It was incredibly helpful, it has been, but I have other great mentors in my life that I've never met.

Adam: Communication is clearly one of the most important characteristics of a great leader. What do you believe are the most essential characteristics of a great leader? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Gary: I kind of think, look, great leaders inspire, right? I just think that great leaders inspire people. Follow great leaders, as great leaders lead with vision and values. They don't lead with plans and processes. No one wants to get up in the morning and go bust and be asked for a 5% increase. That doesn't mean anything to people. It's about what they truly believe in. It's been proven that men and women will work for $1, but die for what they believe. It's so great. Leaders have to lead with great vision. And they have to lead with values. And they have to find others that believe what they believe, believe in that vision and believe in those same values. And I found it very hard to inspire people with plans and profits and corporate strategies. You need those. You need to translate your vision into a strategy that makes sense into actions and things, sure you do. Sure you do. But that's not what people follow. Great leaders inspire because they lead with vision and values, not plans and process.

Adam: What can anyone do to become a better leader?

Gary: To become a better leader, I think, be authentic, be yourself, do what you love, do what you believe in. Because you can't lead people unless you're truly authentic. Great leaders are no different than great brands. They're authentic, they come from a place of deep beliefs. I like to say you can't make up a great brand, you have to deeply believe in it. And those beliefs translate to a consumer. And you kind of can't make up a great leader. You can't try to act like a great leader. It has to come from within. It has to come from a place of deep beliefs that you know that you're going to as leaders. Look, there's a big difference between leadership and management. We say in our age, we have a leadership culture, not a management culture. Managers arrange and organize the status quo. So all about incrementality. Leaders are taking people somewhere; they've never been doing things they've never done. We say leaders have to be comfortable making others uncomfortable because you're in uncharted waters, beginning with the leader. So you better believe in where you're going, get better, deeply believe in where you're leading people. And when you do, people will follow. Not everybody, you know, not everybody. It's the people that believe what you believe, will follow you.

Adam: Gary, that's a great quote. Leaders have to be comfortable in making people uncomfortable. It's all about being able to push your comfort zone and having the ability to inspire others to push their comfort zone so that not only can you become your best self, but you can inspire others to become their best selves. That's so true. What do you look for in the people you hire? And what are your best tips on the topic of hiring?

Gary Freidman: Well, I look for values. I look for qualities, characteristics, values, and beliefs. I look for those things that I can't teach. So one of the questions I asked people in an interview and it usually catches them off guard and I tell them to take a few minutes and just think about it. Don't worry, you know, just stop and think and you need 10 minutes to write things down. Take the time. But I asked people, “What are your values and beliefs? What are those things you live for? I would fight for and die for?”. And I spent a lot of time on that and trying to really understand what people truly believe in. And then the other thing I look for is, I look for what I can't teach. And what I can't teach is generally ability and desire, right? I found that I can't teach people to be smarter than they are. So that their ability to kind of, simplify, to kind of, sequence things to solve problems, takes a certain level of intellect, depending on what kind of role you're hiring people for. And I've never been able to teach people to have any more kind of drive and desire than they naturally have. So I look for ability and desire. I look for intellect and drive. And I don't really look for skills. I think about my leadership team at our age today, none of them have much experience doing what they're doing. They've learned, as some of the greatest leaders I have in the organization. I didn't bet on them because of their skills. Most of them didn't have any experience doing what they're doing. I bet on them because of their values and their beliefs, and their natural talents and kind of DNA. And they've been able to learn everything they need to learn because they're curious, they're critical, they're driven, determined, they won't take no for an answer. You know, they have high energy, they have the ability to energize others, all those kinds of things that you can't teach. That's what we look for. That's what I look for.

Adam: Gary, before we go, I want to ask you some rapid-fire questions. What are your best tips on the topic of branding?

Gary Freidman: I guess, go back to being authentic. Great brands come from a place of deep beliefs. You can't make up a great brand, you have to deeply believe in what you're doing. And so, you know, exist. If you study the people who built Nike, study Phil Knight. You study the Jobs, you study, Elon Musk, you study, the great brands that have been built over the years came from inside, not outside. You can't hire, you know, a branding company to come in and develop your brand. Your brand has to be an authentic reflection of, kind of, what you deeply believe in.

Adam: What are your best tips for retailers and for etailers?

Gary: I'd say, be vision-led, not customer-led. Henry Ford had a great quote, “If I asked my customers what they wanted, they would have told me a faster horse”. And well, Amazon is customer-centric and they invent on behalf of the customer. They really are a vision-led company, you know, they conceptualize something that was never there before. So I just think I look at the journey for Apple or the journey for Tesla or businesses like that, more contemporary businesses. Nobody sat there and said, “We want a digital music player that, in one button, we could have 1000 songs, or that we want music to be all-digital, or that we wanted a phone that could get rid of our camcorder and our calendar and our camera and everything else”. The customers can't tell you what they want next. They can give you feedback about how you're doing today; what was the service level, what was the quality of the product they bought from you. But the great brands and the great businesses in this industry, in every industry, are generally vision-led, they're not customer-led. What's the future of retail? Be incredibly exciting. I think the future of humanity is incredibly exciting. So I tell my girls I only wish that I, you know, be on this planet to see the world that they're going to grow up in. Because there's just so much information, so much data, so much ability to learn so much transparency and access. Who said it, Abraham Lincoln, “If you want to predict the future, you have to create it”. I think that we don't start with trends in our business and try to look at trends. What we try to do is see what's not there. And look at the very best that's happening in the world. And then we say, we think until it hurts, until we can see what others can't see. So we can do what others can't do. And we try to see what's not there. And then, you know, conceptualize and create something that's new and exciting. So people always asked me, “What's next? Where are things going?”. And I said, “I'll tell you when we see it”. And so, there's just endless opportunities everywhere. And I think if you're looking at the trends, if you're looking at the best practices, you're just going to be a follower, not a leader. If you really look at who's created the most value in the world. It's people who've conceptualized original, authentic ideas, and then kept getting up until they got it done. They got knocked down 10 times and they got to 11. And they brought it to life. We just try to use our imagination. And that's why we tape set our company; that it's not about artificial intelligence, it's about actual intelligence, that of humans. Albert Einstein said, “Imagination is more powerful than knowledge”. It's not about what we know. It's not even about what you can see. It's really about what you can't see. And it's really about what you can imagine. And it's like Helen Keller said, “The only thing worse than being blind is having sight but no vision”, right? So I tell people this, “Conceptualize your own vision, see what's not there, you know, come up with an idea that you're so excited about that you can't sleep, work isn't work anymore, you'll be chasing your dreams”. And for the most part, that's when, really, that's when what's next happens; it's created that way. That's what I tell people. Most of the great outcomes don't come from trends, they come from vision.

Adam: Gary, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Gary: Thank you, Adam. Thank you for having me.

Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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