Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Interview with Former FBI Chief Hostage Negotiator Gary Noesner

I recently interviewed Gary Noesner on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today spent 30 years working for the FBI, including a decade as the FBI as chief hostage negotiator. Over the course of his career, Gary Noesner negotiated more than 120 hostage takings in the Middle East, South America, and Asia. Gary's experience negotiating with David Koresh and the branch Davidians inspired the highly public popular TV miniseries Waco, where Gary is played on screen by Michael Shannon. Gary, thank you for joining us.

Gary: It's my pleasure. Glad to be here.

Adam: Michael Shannon gave a gripping performance in Waco and it helped that the content itself was gripping. How accurately were you portrayed on screen and how accurately did the TV series Waco capture what actually happened?

Gary: Yeah, that's a big question. I think. First of all, I have to say Michael Shannon's just amazing. When I found out that he was the one chosen to play me was delighted. He's just a great actor, and we had an opportunity to become pretty good friends while I was out on set for the filming and we had dinner every night. I think Mike did not try to do an impression of me but he captured my way of speaking and my ideas and my thoughts far beyond what my expectations were. So I think while again he's you Taylor Kitsch who play David Koresh obviously was doing an imitation, and trying to look and sound like David Koresh and Michael Shannon was not doing that with me but I he did convey, you know the tone and tenor of my views on negotiations and what we were doing. The show is very accurate from the dramatic impact standpoint. Obviously a very tragic event. Now 17 years ago, I think, the show wanted to do something unique and that's why I chose to cooperate with them. They wanted to show how the divisions inside were doing things outside and vice versa. So they got my book for the FBI perspective, and they got the book of David Tibideaux, one of the survivors for the look from inside out. I think my overall comment is that they depicted David Koresh a little too sympathetically. I think they were trying to show he was a charismatic leader who was able to attract followers. And they certainly did that. But I don't think they brought out his dark, sinister, manipulative, narcissistic side because he was a very challenging guy to deal with from a negotiation point of view. No question about that. The internal conflict that we had within the FBI about focusing on negotiation versus a display of tactical strength on the outside, I think that's very accurately reflected, sadly. And those conflicting strategies did in fact negatively impact the outcome, although I do blame David Koresh for the final outcome, but the FBI clearly made mistakes. The other issues were the beginning of the series kinds of leaves in question a little bit, although they tend to blame ATF for starting the gunfight between the government and Davidians and I don't think it's at all been established before who fired first. There are some witnesses that suggested the Davidians did. The Davidians say ATF. We the FBI were not involved at that point. So I don't know what the truth was. But I don't think it's as clear cut as the producers made it. And that also applies for the fire at the end of the incident. I wasn't there at that time. I had already left Waco, but they certainly left the impression the FBI started the fire and that's been pretty conclusively debunked. It's pretty clear through the Danforth commission and other investigations, independent arson investigations that despite the FBI putting tear gas in the openings ultimately started the fire. It was in response to the tear gas insertion but the fire was started internally and that's sad and tragic, but the way it's depicted leaves that in doubt.

Adam: Can you walk listeners through your experience in negotiating with the Davidians while simultaneously trying to negotiate with your superiors at the FBI, just to have the authority to negotiate, and what are the best lessons you learned from that experience?

Gary: Yeah, it wasn't so much a challenge to be able to initiate negotiations because that's what we do. That’s standard FBI practice. We had a conflict between ATF and the davidians. We, the FBI are called to come in and resolve it. There have been four ATF agents killed, 17 wounded, five or six Davidians killed in the shootout. So it was a mess. And you couldn't really expect to start out a situation more problematic than that one. But our effort was to restore peace and to start the process of trying to find a peaceful solution and getting kids out. So the FBI management on scene was very supportive of the negotiation efforts. And we had some success the first half of the incident when I was running negotiations, we did get, you know, 35 people out including 21 children, but we also began to experience a lot of external pressure the FBI was spending at the time a million dollars a day, tying up hundreds and hundreds of personnel, there was criticism, why can't the FBI just go in and arrest these people? They broke the law. They shot ATF agents, whatever. So there was a lot of pressure and the unseen commander was also dealing with a very aggressive tactical commander in the FBI who wanted to ratchet up show of force and acts of aggression to compel or force the Davidians to come out. And I don't think what the unseen commander fully appreciated, despite my efforts to convince him otherwise was that these two, you know, talk to the nice negotiator or run afoul of the man in the tank. I don't think he appreciated the degree to which those sent contradictory messages and the latter serve to undercut the negotiation effort. So negotiating with Koresh was a challenge. And he was, you know, a very strong willed self serving guy. But I also had the equal task of having to negotiate with FBI managers who in this particular incident were prone to respond in an emotional way to David Koresh, his failure to do often what he said he was going to do. And you know, that became significantly frustrating.

Adam: What are some of the best lessons you learned from that whole experience?

Gary: Well, I think the biggest lesson we learned at Waco and this will sound funny to you, but it's to do what we had always done before Waco. I mean, the FBI has always believed in and was the world leader in the negotiation approach. We don't use force because we can. We use force when the actions and behaviors of the perpetrator or in this case the opponents, leave us with no option. We should be able to make a case in the court of public opinion that we were left with no choice but to take strong action and that wasn't the case here. So the lesson we had always learned is, again, we don't use tactics unless, you know, it looks like we're going to lose some lives by failing to use through negotiation. So the fact that we did those things. It runs counter to the FBI, long standing FBI, philosophy and orthodoxy. And so what we really learned was to do things the way we had done before. As an example of that, three years later in Montana when we had the 85 day Freeman siege with a right wing government group. We did the negotiation the playbook way and everybody came out, not a shot was fired. And of course, nobody knows about it because there was no tragic ending and it didn't get much news coverage, but it was a very big and very challenging event. But so it shows us that it's not as though we didn't know what to do. With Waco we, we just made some bad decisions based on some leadership that was probably ill prepared to, to manage that kind of crisis.

Adam: 30 years working for the FBI, a 35,000 person federal agency. What were the keys to successfully advancing within and navigating the FBI and what advice do you have on how to successfully advance within a large bureaucratic organization and effectively lead teams within a large bureaucratic organization?

Gary: Well, you know, I never had a desire to be a leader in the FBI or to lead teams. I always wanted to be in the FBI, since I was very young. And my dream came true. And I wanted to be very good at being an FBI agent. And eventually, when I got into the FBI, this new discipline on negotiation was emerging. And I was very much attracted to that and ended up performing quite well and got a certain bit of attention and experience and that sort of elevated me up, just going with the flow rather than me seeking advancement and course after Waco, I got a promotion, I ended up being, what would you call it? The equivalent of a colonel in the army. And, you know, it's an awesome responsibility for me to have 350 negotiators working for me throughout the field. And you know, you have to make sure that you're giving them the support and guidance and training they need to be able to perform at a high level. And we also had that role that we had to perform for police throughout the country and became essentially the main source of negotiation training throughout the United States and much of the world. So, I don't know. My key tip is to be yourself, to do what's right. To have integrity and honesty. I always, I think, my career succeeded because I had limited career aspirations. I think any bureaucracy, any big company, if you really want to advance badly, they can control you and your desire to advance will be based on how others perceive you. So if you want to advance, you sometimes have to adjust your behavior to make sure it's consistent with what your bosses want. I never did that and never worried about it because I always felt that would speak truth to power. And I always did. And despite that I was able to advance again, because I didn't really want to but I think if you choose to be a leader, then you have to first and foremost, support your people, and speak up and don't hesitate to do the right thing when the right thing needs to be done.

Adam: You spent 23 years as a hostage negotiator and 10 years at the FBI as a chief negotiator. What are the key elements to leading a successful crisis negotiation?

Gary: Well, I think it's controlling everything around you. Television often depicts- and even this TV show did essentially- one or two people negotiating. It's typically a team event. Even at the local law enforcement level, there are four or five negotiators working together as a team. So you have to make sure everyone is focused on trying to do the best job we can to understand the motivation and behavior of the individual or individuals we're dealing with. And to maintain a sense of self control, team control, and to work in a very focused way on lowering the emotional tension, lowering the confrontation, and opening up a dialogue and a communication with somebody to determine what they're thinking why they're thinking that way. What's motivating them, and to demonstrate that we're there to help them and not hurt them. So making sure that people don't break from that strategy and demonstrate their frustration by saying something inappropriate or taking inappropriate action by someone not on the negotiation team. So it's a matter of educating. I found that my number one tool was being an instructor which is a big part of what I did in the FBI but even at the scene of an incident where there whether it's a chief of police or Sheriff or spoke In Charge, you spend as much time educating them on why we were doing what we were doing and why we needed to do it that way. That was often as big or bigger a problem than trying to determine the motivation and best strategy for dealing with the perpetrator.

Adam: You speak to a wide variety of audiences on the topic of negotiations, and how to be a more effective negotiator in life and in business. What are your best tips for listeners? How can each of us become better negotiators in our personalized and in our professional lives?

Gary: That's a great question. And I think it is the key to everything. You, in my experience, not just in the law enforcement context, but in life, everything's about relationships. And you know, before you hope to influence someone else, first and foremost, you have to have your own self control. So keep your emotions and your anger and your frustration in check. Lashing out at somebody with whom you're having a challenging conversation with is certainly no recipe for access. So once you have that self control, then you have to work hard at creating a relationship that allows you to influence their behavior. And you do that by becoming a really good listener. If I'm talking, I'm not learning anything, I know how I feel about things. I want to hear what the other person is thinking. And you often find that people that are angry or frustrated with you don't feel they've been listened to or understood and everybody wants to be listened to and understood and appreciated. So by listening for the emotions, you hear in what they're saying, and paraphrasing in your words, the story that they're telling you about whatever the situation is you're working on. These are powerful, powerful communication tools to let someone know that I respect you. I'm following what I understand. And, as Stephen Covey the business guru says, “first seek to understand and then to be understood.” So instead of coming in and immediately trying to solve somebody's problem, because you figure out what they need to do right away, you've got to be patient and invest the time and energy in letting them verbalize what's bothering them, how they see the world, how they see their issues. And you prove to them you understand by paraphrasing back in your words, what you're hearing them say, and how you hear that they feel about it. Those two things alone are tremendous ways of demonstrating empathy. And empathy helps to build rapport and ultimately, that rapport gets to a point where someone that you're having a discussion with might say, I'm just not sure what to do. And then you say, okay, well, here's my foot in the door, they've now asked my opinion, because they now respect me sufficiently that I can say, “Well, you know, I've not been in your situation, but I would think maybe the best thing to do would be for you to put your gun down and come on out rather than hurt that person in there. It's really not gonna work to your best interest if you become violent.” You know, you can't just say that the first two minutes of your conversation you have to, through the exchange dialogue that you have with this person, basically tell them that I'm worthy of your respect as well. And I'm trying to help you. So I, you know, I think it's those kinds of attributes that make a good negotiator a willingness to listen and understand. And when you do that, so many of the problems solve themselves.

Adam: Gary, I think that's tremendous advice and I think that's applicable in just about any negotiation and applicable in so many scenarios in life and in business, outside of what we traditionally defined as negotiations, the importance of active listening, the importance of building rapport, the importance of taking a step back and trying to understand what it's like to be in the other person's shoes and it's very clear that that's a big part of the the way that you see things and the way that you've trained your team to see things over the years.

Gary: Indeed. I mean, I stayed up late last night watching some of the news coverage of the terrible events and riots going on throughout the United States as we speak here. And, you know, I'm not saying there's a magic bullet that resolves all that. But I think a big piece of it would be if people learn to listen to each other, a little better. And to acknowledge their point of view. We have a tendency, in this age and time, to want to make everything black or white. And we want to pigeonhole people, pigeonhole political beliefs, religious beliefs, whatever, you know? Blue Flag, red flag, you're my team, you're not my team. And I think it's, it's a poor way of thinking, I think we need to say, I want to hear, I want to learn, I want to understand, and I'm going to show you that because of my knowledge, what you have to say. Doesn't mean I agree, doesn't mean I disagree. I'm just making sure you know I hear what you're saying. People want to be understood. And if we can do that we can really lower the tension in any manner of engagements we have with people. And that accrues to our benefit and we're more likely to avoid violence, avoid confrontation and to gain cooperation.

Adam: Gary, do you have any other really high level tips that you could share with listeners? A lot of listeners are experienced leaders in business or leaders in other areas of life and I would imagine many people tuning in are interested in becoming better negotiators. Is there anything else you could share that someone tuning in can apply directly?

Gary: Well, it sort of goes on what we discussed a little bit, but don't be in a rush to solve a problem or to come up with a solution. You know, there's a lot of times as a boss, I certainly had them, where someone comes in and describes a problem or issue. And bosses can be very busy people, and they're often very good at recognizing a problem and coming up with a quick solution. Boom. Okay, here's what you do. And I think that may have some benefit now and again, but by and large, it's not the best way to approach it. If you can slow down a little bit and allow that person to work through the problem, but you might say, well, okay, you presented this issue with me, what are your ideas on how we might solve it? You know, what do you think would be some of the things we could do? To alleviate this issue that you've brought to my attention, you know, get their buy and get their engagement. And whatever you ultimately decide to do, once you've obtained that buy in its muscle, more likely to be embraced and supported by your larger team. So don't view that you've got this unique knowledge and you can instantly decide what's best, you know, recognize other people's having good ideas, and reward them and acknowledge them and give them credit for them. That's what a good leader does.

Adam: One of the themes of Waco and a topic that I love asking guests about is performing under pressure. I found it fascinating to watch how each of the characters in Waco manage pressure differently and most of the key characters crush the FBI tactical leader, the onsite supervisor. A lot of the ATF guys cracked under pressure and as someone who has spent the majority of his career involved in the highest pressure, highest stakes, life and death situations, how did you learn how to perform under pressure? And what advice do you have for listeners on how to perform under pressure?

Gary: Very good question. I think some of it you've heard of. The conflict- is it nurture or is it nature? And I think it's a little bit of both. I think I inherited a certain calm nature from my father. It took an awful lot to get my father rattled, and hopefully I've inherited some of that genetic capability. But I think you also have to train yourself for that self control. You know, I start one of the chapters in my book with a partial quote from Rudyard Kipling where it says if you can keep your head when all else about you are losing theirs. If you think about situations in life, by and large, it's the people who don't let their emotions overcome them that tend to make the best timed decisions and I've always had that sort of quality where, okay, we have a big problem. It's a real thorny issue. It may not be easy to solve, somebody's life may be on the line. What do we need to do? It's a bit like a trauma surgeon. You know, if I'm walking down the street and I see this terrific, horrific accident, someone's legs have been cut off in a car accident, I'm probably not going to know what to do. I've probably got to run around the car like a, you know, a chicken with his head cut off, but a trauma surgeon walking next to me on the sidewalk, wouldn’t skip a beat, They will immediately go into action to do what needs to be done to save that person's life right then. And it's not that the doctor doesn't feel the emotion, but they've trained themselves, I think, to deal with what needs to be dealt with and puts that other stuff in a back burner for now. And I think a good negotiator, a good communicator does the same thing. Don't allow yourself to get caught up in the emotional, angry outburst aspects of this engagement, you know, just focus on what needs to be done. And that's always served me well, I hope and think it would serve others.

Adam: Well, it's also a big part of negotiating and certainly negotiating at the highest levels involves risk management. Can you talk a little bit about how you approach risk management and what advice you have on how we can most effectively and successfully manage risk?

Gary: That's a tough one. And there's some judgment calls in there. I think, first of all, you have to do a sort of a risk matrix, sometimes on paper, but at a minimum in your mind, you know, what's the likelihood of this bad outcome? And, and if it happens, what's the severity of it? What's the consequences of it? How will it impact us? A lot of times in crisis management that can become overly restrictive because managers will say, I'm not doing that. What do I get for it? I've always been of the train of thought that, well, what do we lose for what, you know if we make this concession, if we demonstrate to this person that we're there to help them and not hurt them, and to do that we have to provide them, you know, a cup of coffee, a cigarette, whatever it is you're asking for. How does that hurt us? I mean, is it really succumbing to a demand or is it more beneficial as a demonstration of our positive intent? So I always look at things from sort of reverse engineered ways you know, what, what do we lose by doing this and came up in Waco with David Koresh wanting to release a recording nationwide, and we hadn't made the recording. And, you know, the on scene commander said, “Hey, well, what are we getting for this?” You know, and I said, “I don't know if he'll come out like he promised. I'm not sure if he will.” And in fact, he didn't. I said, What do we really lose by doing this? What do we give up? Well, the answer is really nothing. And yet we took a calculator chance to try to have a very good outcome. It didn't quite work the way we wanted because Koresh heard from God at the last minute and decided not to surrender. But I still think it was the right decision to make. It might have worked, you know, he got cold feet at the very end. So I'm not sure if that answers your question. But I think it is important when we look at risk, you know, how likely is it? What's the impact of it? And then we have to make the best decision we can. And we also have to realize that not everything is going to be black and white. The world is mostly made up of gray. The decisions are not always easy. Well, here's the problem, okay? We do A or B and A is always right. B is always bad. You know, it doesn't work that way. Life is complex, it's gray. It's nuanced. And we have to have a collegial team that is assessing the best way and that gives us some reassurance that it's just not Gary's decision. Now I've got a team of three or four other people whose input I've gotten. Assessments I've listened to, and we collectively will make the best decision and we'll all support it.

Adam: I agree with everything you said. And actually, we didn't really go into too much depth on this particular point, but it's a clear theme in the way that you not only dealt with the diversity engine crash, but a common theme in the way you've approached negotiating over the course of your career and your philosophy is treating people like people. At the end of the day, they're on the other side of a negotiation, but they're not necessarily your enemy. They're not necessarily your adversary. They're someone who really is a partner in trying to get to the outcome you need to get to.

Gary: I think that's a very, very important point. And it's a challenge in law enforcement, because we often are confronting people who have had an unpleasant history with law enforcement, they have drug dependency, alcohol dependency, they've got a long criminal record, they buy a lot of different assessments that would be considered not particularly nice people. And yet, even those people want respect. Even those people wanted to be treated with dignity. So for example, in a certain scenario, you would say that rather than coming in and using your strict, officious police voice say, you better come out, you better do this, or we're going to get you. You say, Hey, my name is Gary. And, you know, it sounds like something's really challenging you today and something's going on. And I, I'd like to hear about and see if I can help you. You know, I'm not coming in as Captain so and so or Colonel so and so. I'm Gary and I'm here to help you. And just that alone. And the other thing you might throw in, you know, this guy's probably been treated like crap his whole life and you're saying, Mr. Johnson. You're showing him respect. Mr. Johnson. Can I call you by your first name? But you're starting off at a high level of respect, you're treating him, perhaps with dignity and in a manner that he's not been treated in a very long time, if ever.

Adam: It's really interesting, great advice. You've worked for and with many leaders over the course of your career, a leader you worked for the last couple of years at the FBI, Robert Mueller is certainly one of the most high profile leaders in the country today. You lead an elite unit within the FBI. What are the key elements to successful leadership and how can anyone become a better leader?

Gary: Well, that's tough. I mean, I've never taught a leadership course per se, but I think you have to be down to earth. A few things I mentioned before, I think you have to encourage a collaborative workspace where people feel that they have access to the boss, that the boss is receptive to their opinions. And takes them into account. And when there is success, we do it as a team. When there's a failure, the leader says, I let the team down, it was my fault. I think I made a bad decision there. You know? So, in a negotiation, when I'm dealing with a perpetrator, and something good happens, I say, I did that, because I want to build a relationship. If something bad happens, I said, you know, my boss decided to do that. But it's the opposite in a leadership role with a cooperative team, you know, you give the team credit. And then you take the blame. These are the signs of a good leader and be willing to admit your mistakes, and let your own behavior be an example to others. You know, come in early, work late, work hard. You know, they used to have the saying in management courses, you know, that management by walking around I mean, go down to the production line, roll up your sleeves and work alongside somebody on the line for a little bit of time, you know, and get to know some of them and ask them hey, you know, does your kid still playing softball? How's he doing? You know, things like that, particularly if done genuinely and sincerely carry a tremendous amount of weight. And people like to see a boss who is engaged like that. And they'll walk through a wall for you if you treat them that way. And they'll support you. And I think a lot of leaders forget that. And, you know, they need to keep that in mind.

Adam: On a scale of 1 to 10, how important are ethics to negotiating and to leadership and why?

Gary: It's important. It’s a 10. I mean, I think you've got to, in addition to talk the talk, you've got to walk the walk, and, you know? If you're telling people to behave a certain way, and that's an expectation that you have, and then you act in a different way, I think it's about as bad as signals you can send. I mean, an example, you know, is a book I read years ago called The Gates of Fire about Leonidas, the head of the Spartans and when the hundred Spartans held off the Persian army, you know, and they talked about Leonidas, his leadership skills, and you know, it was pretty desperate times, but he said he would make sure every one of his soldiers ate before he did. He would make sure everybody had a fire. That was attended to then he, the leader, would, before he would relax. People see that. They see that you're willing to make sacrifices and do things for the team. So, you know, lead by example.

Adam: Gary, thank you so much. Thanks for all the great advice and thanks for joining us.

Gary: Hey, it was my pleasure. I really enjoyed the program. Thanks again.