Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: General Robert Neller

I recently interviewed General Robert Neller on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a retired four-star general who was the highest-ranking officer in the United States Marine Corps. General Robert Neller, spent 44 years in the Marines, ultimately serving as the Commandant of the Marine Corps, where he oversaw a $43 billion dollar global enterprise and 225,000 employees around the world. General Neller, thank you for joining us.

General Neller: It's great to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Adam: You were born in Louisiana. You grew up in Michigan, you're a huge Michigan sports fan. And you went to college at the University of Virginia, and then spent the next 44 years in the Marines. What drove you to become a marine and what drove you to pursue a career as a Marine Corps offer?

General Neller: Well, my father, I reason. I was born in Louisiana, as my father was serving there in the army at Fort Polk. His brother was a naval aviator. And I'd always been interested in history and the Marine Corps and a lot of my dad's friends and people that he worked with during World War Two, Korean guys. And so when I saw the marine recruiter one day walking through the Student Union at UVA, with my roommate, you know, we were thinking about being lawyers, and the guy convinced us well, yeah, you can be a lawyer in the Marine Corps. So we went to OCS. And then one thing led to another and the bottom line is I wanted to get married, and I needed a job and I didn't get into the law school. I wanted to get into it. So I said, well, I'll try this Marine Corps thing for three years because I enjoyed OCS. And, you know how things go in life. I got married, you have a kid, and another kid. I was fortunate that my family supported me, my wife, liked the life of moving around and traveling. And then one thing led to another and then boom, 44 years, and you're done. So, you know, we all make choices. I don't regret- there are always regrets. But I don't regret sticking around and serving our nation for 44 years, and I'm very proud of having been a United States Marine.

Adam: Can you take listeners back to your early days as a Marine. What were some of the best lessons you learned? And what were the keys to rising within such a competitive organization?

General Neller: Well, I don't think I've thought about rising. You know, I came in at the end, right at the end of Vietnam, the evacuation of Saigon. So the people that were my coaches, if you will, were Vietnam era Marines. And they were tough guys. And there were not that many women in the Marine Corps. And we certainly had very little to do with them at that time. They were tough infantry, Marines, combat vets from Vietnam, and then I served our first unit. So we come in, in an environment where there's not a lot of money, there's not much interest in the military. In fact, there's kind of a disdain for the military in the 70’s. So our equipment was bad. We had a lot of racial issues. Remember that, you know, in ‘68 Martin Luther King, and Robert Kennedy and all the riots and all the acrimony about race and the civil rights movement continued on and was exacerbated by Vietnam. There were issues so you had to learn to, you know, work with what you had. And not that there weren't good Marines or a lot of great Marines in the many of them, you know, particularly the staff, noncommissioned officers, were great mentors to me and kept me motivated, because it was tough. It was tough. We didn't have a lot. So you learned to deal with what you had. You learn to deal with people, you learn to, at a very early age, try to address diversity, what we would call diversity issues, or racial issues. And you had to show up, you had to perform. There was not a lot of hugging going on back then. You know, it's like, do your job and then maybe you'll get an acknowledgment, but if you don't do your job, you're certainly going to be recognized. I prefer, like I've told everybody, if you're going to get recognized as a marine one way or the other, I would prefer to recognize you in a positive way, rather than a negative way. So those are kind of the things I learned early on. I learned that you had to be, you know, you had to do your job. Had to know your stuff. You had to perform. You had to be out front. You didn't have to necessarily be the best but you had to show up. Show up every day. We'd have to see you there, that you're sharing the risk or sharing what's going on with them because that's important.

Adam: That’s something that we were chatting about off the air. That is ironic. You were a rabble-rouser as you were coming up through the Marine Corps.

General Neller: And I probably would describe me as a pain in the ass. Yeah.

Adam: I was trying to be polite. And oftentimes, when you look at leaders of organizations, you don't necessarily know that earlier on in their careers they weren't quite as buttoned up as they are once assuming those leadership positions. Can you take listeners back to that time and how your leadership style evolved? And how that may have shaped you as a leader in the Marines?

General Neller: Well, looking back at it, I'm not sure how I survived. I think the Marine Corps as an institution has a certain tolerance for people that might be a little bit different. Believe it or not, I think there's a stereotype that it's all uniform and that's not necessarily the case. And I was fortunate that the leadership I had was tolerant enough for me to let me express my thoughts. I believe most people, when you ask them, what do you think about that? They're really, first of all, they have to believe that you really want to hear what they have to say. I think a lot of leaders say that they really don't want to hear what people say. So when someone said that to me, I was assuming that they were being truthful. They wanted to know what I had to say. And so I told him, and sometimes I told them when they didn't ask me that, which was probably not a good idea on occasion. But I guess for me, you know, I believe in every organization, you're going to have people that are outliers, people that have different thoughts, people that have different views, people that have the moral courage to tell you that this is really a bad idea. And I think it's important that one, first of all, you find out who they are, and you listen to them on occasion, kind of the cabinet of equals, if you will, from like President Lincoln, you know, somebody who's gonna speak their mind, and maybe tell you that this is not the way, this is not what I think we ought to do. And then you make your assessment based on all the different inputs you get with those people. Also, a lot of times they have to be protected, because others may not be as tolerant as you. And so I think there's a place for them in our organization. But there's a line I mean, at some point in the Marine Corps, like we're done talking about this, if there's time, and we have the opportunity, I want to hear everybody's thoughts or ideas. But at the end of the day, they're going to be made. And when the decision is made, okay, we're done, it's time to move out, we're gonna go do this. And you have to be all in, you have to be all in.

Adam: You bring out a number of really interesting and important points, one of which is the importance of cultivating a culture that allows all kinds of people to thrive in large organizations. I found, and I'm sure many listeners who've worked at big companies have found, that not everyone fits in. There are people like the kinds of people who you described in describing yourself, who don't necessarily follow the status quo, think outside the box, and aren't as well suited to work for large bureaucratic companies as everyone else. And it's imperative upon those in leadership positions, and those who are in charge of setting the tone and shaping the culture, to create an environment that allows those kinds of people to be their best selves to fit in to thrive. At the same time, and this is something that I explored in my podcast interview with General Martin Dempsey, one of the most important things that any great leader has to do is become a great follower before you can become a great leader, you need to become a great follower. And in your case, you learn that I have my opinions, I have my views. I'm not afraid to share them. I'm not afraid to say something, if and when I believe it's important, but at the same time, I understand that here's the bottom line, and I have to go along with it when it's ultimately said.

General Neller: No, I mean, I agree. I worked for General Dempsey. When he was the chairman, I was his operations officer. And he was a great boss, because, first of all, he was calm and deliberate and thoughtful and funny and kind. I remember one day, he called me up. They call me and say the chairman wants to see me and so I go up to his office and he goes, hey, did we just fly two B-52’s through Russia's airspace? I'm like, I'm the Operations Officer for the Joint Staff. I don't know the answer, sir, I don't know. Let me go check. He goes, yeah, get back to me on that. We are pleased. So sure enough, there was an exercise going up in the Baltics and we had flown a couple airplanes not into, but very close, to their airspace. And so I dutifully went back. And I said, yes, General. Yes, Chairman. We did, but we didn't penetrate their space. But we were close. He goes, I just got called by my counterpart. And you know, the next time we do that, I really think I need to know about it in advance. Okay. Yes, sir. For sure. Absolutely. Got it. And he goes, okay, thanks, Bob. On the other side, he could have called me up and chewed me out, and ranted and raved. But he was a pro. And I got the answer. And it was a teaching point, you know, hey, Chairman wants to know, as he should, about stuff like that. So I, you know, there's a way to do things in an organization. And I think when you think back on any organization you've been a part of when you were, hey, do you really like what you're doing? What it really was, is, you're like the people you're working with, not just your peers, but you like your leadership. It was probably because the leadership was inclusive, and talk to people, they had good communication skills, there was a lot of collaboration, everybody had input, and you understood that they had to make a decision, at the end of the day, when they made a decision, then you are obligated as a follower to execute that decision to the best of your ability. So you can't have anarchy. And there's rules and values and culture in any organization. And if it's good, then there's a certain left and right lateral limit that allows you to move within there. But at the end of the day, you know, you know what your mission is, and you got to do your level best to meet that.

Adam: Great anecdote. Great example of what leadership looks like. And you shared a few of the characteristics of what makes a great leader. Can you expand upon that? What do you believe are the most critical elements of a great leader and what can anyone do to become a better leader?

General Neller: The second question is a lot harder than the first one. You know, when I would talk to Marines, you know, a lot of us say, hey, what can I do to be a better leader? Well, I don't think this is rocket science. There's a path. There's no secret here. If I asked you to close your eyes, and think of the best leaders that you met throughout the course of your life, maybe your parents, maybe it was a relative, maybe it was a coach, maybe it was a teacher, or maybe somebody in an organization. And I said, okay, what was it about them that made you think that they were so effective or that they inspired you to do better than maybe you even thought you could? And the answer was pretty much no, they were fair. They set a great example. They were humble, they were respectful of all people. They were calm, and they were deliberate. They were competent. They knew their business. They knew what they were about. They were compassionate and kind, but they could be tough when it was required, but they never held a grudge. And when they got done, you know if you needed to be disciplined, or corrected, it was done and okay, well, now we're moving on. And we're not going to talk kind of like the scene from Killer Angels when Robert E. Lee chastises Jeb Stuart for disappearing for four days and says, alright, we will speak of this no more. We're done. We're moving on it. And so those are all the traits I mean, anybody you think of that you didn't like working for there's probably the opposite of that. They didn't know their business. They were selfish. They were not respectful of people. They didn't listen, they took advantage of their position. I mean, you asked me for one quality for a successful leader. I would say self-denial reminded us kind of the servant leader that, you know, you are there not for yourself, but you're there for the good of the whole. You know, I always, when I would talk to Marines, I would say your number one goal is that you all are individually successful, whatever, however you define that, because if we can set the condition for everybody here to be individually successful, and you can achieve your goals, then the rank or is going to be great. So you have to figure out what it is to you. What is success in your mind? And let's figure out how to work a plan to achieve that success for you. Because if you're successful then the institution's going to be successful.

Adam: When you were the leader of the Marine Corps, you led significant transformational change in a number of different ways. One that most people know of is the integration of women into combat roles. And I wanted to ask you, how can anyone become an agent of change? And what are the keys to driving transformational leadership?

General Neller: Well, change is hard. And there's always going to be people that don't want to change, you know, it's the bottom up or the top down. You can tell people all day long, this is what we're going to do. And you can try to incentivize it, or hold people accountable who don't meet the standard, or don't follow the rules. Ideally, you want to convince everybody at the bottom that this is the right way to go and it's going to make the organization better. There's always going to be people somewhere along the line that are either in the Marine Corps or there's always somebody who doesn't get the word right. So you talk to them, and you'll work with them. And if they are unable to comply, then they need to be gotten rid of; those numbers are usually pretty small.

Adam: Over the course of your career as a leader in the Marine Corps you lead on the ground in high stakes operations in Panama, and Somalia, in Bosnia, in Iraq. What is your best advice on how to perform under pressure and how to lead teams to perform under pressure?

General Neller: Well, if you wait until you get to that place, it's too late. There's, you know, the part of being ready for a real event is that you've trained really, really hard, just like any athletic team, you know? If you practice hard the game can be relatively easy, it all comes together, it doesn't always work that way. Just like in combat, things don't always go according to plan. But you have to try to do the best of your ability. The stress, the physical deprivation, the fatigue, the requirement for endurance, the stress of operating under, you know, bad weather, cold, wet night, because those are the things you're going to see when it really happens for real. If you haven't done that, then I don't think your probability of being successful has greatly diminished. The Marine Corps has, at least as long as I was part of it, been trying really, really hard. The odds are in the last 20 years has actually been kind of an aberration as far as professional military people. Now I joined in 1975. And I didn't get involved in a real operation until Panama. And it was pretty low. It was a pretty low-intensity thing. But it wasn't until 1989 so it's 14 years. So you train, you prepare, you read, you study, you think about it, you try to put yourself in positions where you get tested, and you do the repetition of the basic things over and over again, and hope that you can calm your nerves and those around you. And some people are gifted at that and others, you know, they're scared. I don't care who you are, there's a certain pregame jitters. But it's like when the game starts like after you get that first hit, you know, you're gonna enter the rhythm and you're playing the game. And I think most people I've talked to have done incredibly heroic things. They said, hey, I just did what my body was telling me to do, which was that they fell back on their training.

Adam: You've emphasized the importance of training and to those of us outside of the military. And I would imagine to those inside of the military as well, the Marines are viewed with such great admiration as a model as to how to get the most out of your ability, whether it's how to reach peak performance, physically, or how to reach peak performance mentally. And I wanted to ask you, based on your four and a half decades, leading and leading at the highest levels of the Marine Corps, how can anyone listening to this conversation, reach peak performance physically and mentally?

General Neller: I think we're all capable of more than we believe. And in the military, you learn right from the beginning that they're going to get pushed, they're going to look for those that are not willing to put forth the effort or mentally, I mean, physically. There are some people very gifted, but even mentally when your mind is telling you no, but your body's telling you no, but your mind is saying, yeah, I can do this. I can go another mile, I can go another hour, I can do this, at some point you are going to wear out. Like, that's a difficult thing, it goes back to the mental health thing. There's the, you know, there is not an infinite amount of resilience in every human being. But I think if you put yourself in positions, and you work hard- at the same time, when you have the opportunity, you have to rest, you have to do your best to replenish your body and your mind. And those are the things you need, you know, you have to kind of find that balance, but you do have to push yourself and make a lot of people. Physical Fitness is a big part of it as both improve your mental health. I think what we eat, how we eat, the use of alcohol and drugs is not helpful, in any way, shape, or form. And I'm not, I'm not judging, I'm not telling people not to drink. I mean, you're grown men or women out there, you can do what you want. But if you think about all the people, you know, that have kind of suffered or had problems, or even in the workplace, or in the personal life, it goes a lot of them, their issue started with the fact that they were not able to manage their consumption of alcohol, or use of prescription or illegal drugs. So there's certain things out there we know. And that certainly puts you at a disadvantage. But again, it takes effort, it takes discipline, it takes focus, and it takes a team, it takes others. You can't do it by yourself, you need a partner or a buddy or a spouse, or a friend, somebody that can give you support. Because you we all you're always doubting yourself, I think everybody doubts themselves. And you need to have somebody come in, you know, for you to ask, did I make the right decision? Or, what do you think about this? Or how am I doing? I mean, that's the proverbial question. The boss comes into the conference room. And there's a man who says, hey, how are we doing? So great question. Well, how do you want to define that? Let's define how we're doing. Do we have our sales up, or is the workforce happy? Is morale good? Are we able to keep our talented people or are they leaving? So you've got to look at all that as the leader. And that's all part of this calculus as far as how you manage yourself in a difficult time.

Adam: An underlying theme in the advice you shared is motivation. Motivating yourself, finding someone who can help you serve as an accountability partner and as a leader in the Marine Corps. You were motivating troops, you are motivating employees. What are your best tips for leaders on the topic of motivation?

General Neller: Just be candid and frank. I know you're not up every day. You say, hey, I give 110% every day. I'm sure there's people out there that do that. I think everybody struggles you know, I guess, to tell me some days you wake up and you know. I just say I just don't feel like being the common out today. But I am the common out. So, you know, get up off your ass and go out there and do your job. And then you tell them and say look, I know I want you to give 100% every day or 110% but I know it's not possible. So give me what you can give. It's 90 okay, I'll take 90 but at the same time, your obligation is to your fellow marine that Marina. Your right and your left, if you know them, and they're your friends, you know, they're not giving 100% say, hey, what's going on? Maybe there's something going amiss. Something happened to that person that is causing them to not be able to meet their full potential that day, or they just say they are tired. I'm dragging today. Alright, come on. I know you can do more than this. For a leader, I would say there's got to be somebody in your organization who has what I would call the red card, or a yellow card. You can come in the office and go, hey, boss, Commander, what's going on because you really just wanted that briefing. And that was terrible. I don't know why you did what you just did there. Sometimes you forget, you get tired, you get frustrated. You lose your focus. So you need somebody to call you out. And then you can correct yourself. You can go back and say I am sorry I did what I did the other day. It was wrong. I was just having a bad day. And I think people understand that. Some things are forgivable, and some are not. But I think being authentic- I guess is the word that today's generation uses- authentic in how you address people. Just be straight up and frank. I think that the thing that upsets people the most is if they don't feel like their leadership is being transparent or sincere with them. Just tell me. I'm a big girl or big boy. I can handle it. Tell me the truth. Okay, here's what's going on. Okay, what are we gonna do about it? Well, that's a great question. What do you think we ought to do about it? Well, I don't know. Well, think about it. Here's what I'm thinking right now; what do you think about that? That goes back to this dialogue if you've got the time. So now they know nobody's got the answers all the time. I don't think so. You're not imagining. I don't have all the answers to all these problems. If it was, if I had the answer, it wouldn't be that big a problem, we would have fixed it already. And some of these things are very, very difficult. Usually, things involving people.

Adam: The most difficult issues are the ones that make it to the desks of the leaders. To your point, if the issues are not the most difficult issues in your organization, they're not going to make it to your desk. And as a leader, and as the senior-most leader within the Marine Corps, you are dealing with incredibly large, complex, multibillion-dollar and life and death issues. Can you share with listeners, your approach to making difficult decisions and your best tips on the topic of decision making?

General Neller: You know, that's a very complicated question. Let me try, I'll do my best. First of all, you have to try to understand the problem, like it's been written that if you have a problem you have to solve, I mean, the more time should be spent on discussing and defining the problem than on actually coming up with a solution because in the course of defining the problem, it'll probably become apparent to you. And not all problems have single solutions, like, there’s not some silver bullet out there to solve this problem. It's a multi-faceted problem. And then some of these promise wicked problems, like the problems of suicide, and the problems of sexual assault, or the problems of substance abuse, not just in the military, but in our society. The problems in an organization like AI, how do we do a better job? Or recruiting, or how do we do a better job, or retention, or we need to buy a better widget. Those are problems that through analysis and different things, you can come up with courses of action, or multiple avenues of things you want to do, that you can implement. And then you can see if they, over a period of time, if they actually solve the problem. I think you can get a group of people, you can find people on the cross-section in the organization, you can form a working group, and they come up with ideas and let them sit around and focus on it, and then just kind of brainstorm it, and then come to you. And I think that's good because it gives you a different perspective. To try to do it by yourself is difficult because there's no way you can see every possible angle. Say, for example, if you know the particular problem is affecting a certain demographic within your organization, and the group should be formed out of that demographic, go to them and say, hey, here's the problem I think we have. First of all, do you agree there's a problem? And second, how do we solve this? And they will tell you, or they'll give you options or give you ideas. And then at the end of the day, you're going to have to decide. It's not a committee. Committees don't make decisions, committees make recommendations. Staff don't make decisions, leaders make decisions. Staff make recommendations. Now, you mentioned sometimes all the problems don't get to you. And that can itself be a problem because sometimes people don't want to tell you there's a problem. Remember, the rank below flag officer in the military is his Colonel or Navy captain, then a lot of times they're reluctant to come to tell the boss that they have a problem that they haven't solved because it makes them feel like they haven't done their job. And there's some problems they cancel. And inevitably, they come in at the 11th hour, or maybe the 11th hour and the 59th minute, and they used to tell me look, if you have a problem, there's certain things you can't fix. There's certain things I can fix because I have a star or stars on my collar because I might know the person. But I can't solve the problem. If you know, let me help you. So the problems don't always end up at the top, sometimes they get stopped in the middle and then they get stifled or slowed. And then the system can kind of grind to a halt. But leaders have certain skills but otherwise they hopefully wouldn't be put in a position they've been put into working.

Adam: What can anyone do to become more successful personally and professionally?

General Neller: You know, I think it starts early. I think we all need to be educated. You have to be inquisitive. I think that there's one trait that is not considered enough. I think it's important for people to be inquisitive. Now that goes back to my, you know, my difficulty as a junior officer. I just wanted to know why we do it this way. And it's very important for a staff member to be inquisitive, as opposed to just taking an answer at face value so I think you'll be inquisitive, studying, reading, learning, to get some depth to your knowledge. You're gonna have subject matter experts in your organization whose knowledge you're never gonna exceed or equal. So you need to find out where your knowledge shortfalls are and find people who can fill in that gap.

Adam: General Neller, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

General Neller: It was a great time. I look forward to hearing this and you be safe. Vaccinations are good.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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