Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: AFI Founder George Stevens Jr.

I recently interviewed George Stevens Jr. on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today has won 15 Emmys and an Academy Award for Lifetime Achievement. George Stevens Jr. is the founder of the American Film Institute, co-founder of the Kennedy Center Honors, and the author of the book, My Place in the Sun: Life in the Golden Age of Hollywood in Washington. George, thank you for joining us. 

George: Well, it's a great pleasure. 

Adam: The pleasure is mine. George, you grew up in the golden age of Hollywood and you grew up on studio sets with your dad. George Stevens was one of the all-time great directors and you worked with your dad on some of the all-time great movies. A Place in the Sun, and Shane Giant, just to name a few. We could spend the entire episode and we could spend days and weeks and months just talking about those movies, classics then classics today. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What experiences and lessons were most instrumental to shaping your worldview and to shaping the trajectory of your success?

George: Obviously working with my father, which was such a unique opportunity, he was a great father. The first picture he directed was Alice Adams, in 1935. And he was 30 years old. And within five years, he was one of the top directors in Hollywood. And he decided that he couldn't sit at home while a war is going on in Europe. So he volunteered and became head of combat photography for the war in Europe, going in with his camera crews on the day, of the liberation of Paris, the Battle of the Balls, Dachau, then coming back, and I had the benefit of working with him and learning so much from him. And having written this book, my place in the sun, is obviously, a reference to his movie A Place in the Sun. I think it's interesting because I look back now going with him, the 1952 Oscars, and in retrospect, it has more meaning for me than it did at the time. He was one of the five nominees for Best Director, and I was sitting next to him when Joseph L. Mankiewicz came on the stage. He'd won the Oscar the year before for the Lady Eve. And we sat there and Joe Mankiewicz read the nominees for Best Director, he said John Houston for the African Queen, and William Wyler for Detective Story. Vincent Minnelli for an American in Paris Aelia, Kazakhstan for A Streetcar Named Desire. And George Stevens, replacing the son. I mean, that was a murderer's row of great movies in that one year. And I wouldn't be telling you this story on your podcast if John Houston had one. But my father, of course, won for A Place in the Sun, it was his first Oscar. And riding home that night, he was driving the car, the Oscars on the seat between us and I was, I think I was 18. And he looked over at me and said, “We'll have a better idea what kind of a film this is, in about 25 years”. Why he chose to say that, there were no home videos, there was no streaming, there were no cinema texts, and pictures came and went. But he understood that the importance of a work of art of many things is standing the test of time. Now he did not know sitting there in 1952, in that car, that he was talking to the person who would one day be the founder of the American Film Institute, which is based on the idea of the test of time, preserving America's great films, training filmmakers who are going to make films that live or the Kennedy Center Honors which too is based on the test of time. So you never know where these kinds of pieces of wisdom that are going to guide you come from.

Adam: George, I love that and I want to highlight a couple of points that you brought out. First and foremost, the last point you made, you never know, when you're going to hear that game-changing perspective. You never know who it's going to come from. In this case, it came from your dad, who was a great mentor to you, one of the all-time greats. But it could come from anyone. And your dad's point around leaving a legacy. You don't know what kind of impact you will have today, tomorrow, and years from now. So all you can really do is focus on doing your best work, leaving it all out on the field, and not worrying about the critics of today.

George: Even he, at what many people find what is the high moment of your life winning an Oscar, he was thinking ahead. He wasn't saying, okay, that's done. And now I'm great. Another experience that kind of relates to this is I was working with him on the film Giant, which many of your listeners will remember, star James Dean, Elizabeth Taylor, and Rock Hudson have a great Saiga of Giant. It also had very important ideas in it. But we're working on the film. And it turned out to be a three-hour and 20-minute movie. And people watch it today. And they say whenever I turn it on, I end up watching it to the end. But he worked so hard. He avoided the word, calling himself a perfectionist. But he was and we were sitting in the editing room. I was 23 by that time. And we've been working on it for the editing for over a year. And young I was kind of impatient. I said, “Dad, this picture. We previewed it twice. Audiences love it. Shouldn't you just wrap it up and we move on?”. And he thought for a minute. And he said, “You know if you think about how many men”, and I think he would say today, “how many men and women hours are going to be spent watching this film through the years, don't you think it's worth to make a few more hours of our time to make sure it's a better picture for them?”.  And it really guided me in terms of when I had the opportunity to make films and make television shows. I just always felt that whatever additional little thing I can do to make it better. I was conscious of how many hours the world would spend watching it.

Adam: It's interesting, you bring up Giant, and you bring up the example around the impact of the work that you and your dad were able to make. When I watched Giant years ago, the last thing I thought of was the length of the movie. And the first thing I thought of was the impact of the movie, bringing in such important themes. A Western but like the best Westerns like Shane, arguably the greatest Western of all time. Yeah, it's not about guns. And it's not about cowboys. And it's not about Indians. It's about so much more than that. To listeners who haven't seen Shane or haven't seen Giant or haven't seen these movies for many years, can you try to bring out some of those themes that you think are critical that everyone today should understand that can allow anyone to be more successful, more thoughtful, and a better-rounded human being?

George: Why Adam, it's so interesting. We made Giant in 1956. We did a restoration showing last year, Steven Spielberg's work, we worked together on it and presented it at Grumman's Chinese in an IMAX theater. That was the theater where 65 years earlier, that film premiered. And we watched it last year with a packed house. And they were just so alive to that film as if it had been made yesterday. And so interesting that some of the themes in the film Giant had conflicts, there were racial conflicts with Hispanics in giant in that era, the era of the story, and treated with such sensitivity by my father, that it is so relevant today. We are still working to address those questions. And also, again made in 1956. Elizabeth Taylor plays this gorgeous and wonderful character, and she was a feminist. She was a woman, very loving of her husband, and they solve the problems of their marriage that she was out working to help address the disadvantages of the Mexican people on their ranch. So it's always so interesting when the ideas that were new then are current today 65 years later and presented with a kind of fairness and vision that appeals to audiences.

Adam: One other thing I want to bring out when I think about Giant is the ups and downs of life. There is no linear path to success. And something that the movie portrayed so beautifully, is that no matter what road you're going down, there are going to be speed bumps, and some of the speed bumps are going to be more drastic than others. And it's about how you navigate the obstacles in front of you. It's about how you deal with failure. It's about how you deal with the setbacks. That's what defines you.

George: And Rock Hudson plays this strong guy who runs this enormous Riata ranch, and he's sort of set in his ideas. And Elizabeth, part of the struggle of their marriage is coming to understand that. And when there's the famous scene, the fight scene in the diner, at the end of the movie, where a rock now 60-year-old man, the owner of this little cafe, insults his Hispanic grandson, the little baby, and rock, punches him, and they have this titanic fight in this diner, and rock, the hero of the movie ends up on the floor, in the salad around him. And the guy throws a sign on top of him saying we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. And later, Elizabeth, his wife says I was never proud of you than when you were laying on the floor and that salad he had found his way and done the right thing

Adam: It was a very powerful moment, the power of doing the right thing, a universally applicable message. I wasn't lying when I said we could spend all day and all night talking about these great movies. But I want to ask you about how you were able to pivot away from your career working on great films with your dad, a Hollywood legend, one of the all-time greats. But like so many others who have a family member who has enjoyed so much great success, it can cast a giant shadow. I’m making a reference to another great movie that your dad didn't make. How did you get to a place where you were able to carve out your own unique identity and become your own person, establish this own unique and great legacy completely separate from your dad George Stevens?

George: I didn't. I used to joke to myself, Adam, in my younger years. When I was 26, I was directing Alfred Hitchcock Presents, and Peter Gunn and working with my father on the Diary of Anne Frank. And I used to say, I think that I am going to spend my entire life working hard to become the second-best film director in my family. But then fate happens. Edward R. Murrow was appointed the great broadcaster by President Kennedy to run the United States Information Agency and he came to work in the new frontier. And he needed somebody to run the motion picture division of USAA. And I met with him he was in Hollywood and I explained I couldn't do it because my father and I were going to start The Greatest Story Ever Told. And I was like his partner and I just couldn't leave. And a few days later, dad and I were at the studio and walking to lunch. And we hadn't discussed this and it came up. And I'll never forget he stopped. And he said, “I think you may have to do it”. And it was a father understanding his son's interest over his own interest. Because it became a much tougher picture for him to make without me than it would have been with me. And for me, it opened doors. And suddenly I was in Washington and perhaps the most exciting time to be in government working for a great man Ed Murrow acquainted with and responding to President Kennedy. And it opened all new doors, I would have not founded the American Film Institute or done many of the things that I did, had I not had that pay. Ed Murrow asked me to come back and see him and I went to see him in 1776 at Pennsylvania Avenue. And I had been taking some time with this and we had a nice talk. And I remember in terms of leadership on his side, was a 12,000-person agency. I was 29 years old and Murrow had the patience to say to me, “I think you can make a difference”. And he said, “And we won't hide your light under a bushel”, which was some term from his State of Washington growing up, that he was saying to me, you're going to be all right here. I left his office, it was a winter day. And I walked down the Washington Mall and got to the Washington Monument. And I went in, and I walked up the 576 steps to the top. And I said to myself, I'm going to make a decision before I get to the top. And I walked out at the top, and you look at the Jefferson Memorial, the Lincoln Memorial, that Potomac River, and I was giving up a much higher paying job to come to work for the government. And I was like the little boy, who throws his head over the wall, to find out what's on the other side. It was the best decision I ever made.

Adam: What advice would you give to anyone listening to this podcast right now trying to figure out or mentoring people who are trying to figure out what exactly I want to do? Where exactly do I want to be? You were faced with this fork-in-the-road moment and you made a decision that completely changed the trajectory of your life and the trajectory of the film industry. What would you tell them?

George: Every circumstance is so different, you just have to think it through. I weighed it and considered every factor. Maybe if I had gone back there and gone back down and said, I don't want to do it, I'd have three Oscars instead of one. State in Hollywood, no. And I met my wife in Washington, and I had these associations, but to work with so many talented people, presidents, people who work for me and with me, it just proved to be a very rich life.

Adam: George, what I'm hearing from you is to make a thoughtful decision, carefully weigh your options, and then go for it. Go all in whatever path you decide to go for. Make that yours, own it.

George: Be a good listener, and be thoughtful, don't be impulsive. Way on one hand. On the other hand, even making our movies and our Kennedy Center Honors show that we wanted to knock the world's socks off. I was sometimes a little notorious for not making decisions as soon as people would like me to make them. And I always knew I had some option over here. But I just wanted to wait and see if I couldn't make something good happen. And it was having that thing that you really want to be the very best. And if you need time, take as much time as you can to make the right decision. I was very touched and inspired. President Kennedy used to read the Greeks. And he had a wonderful way with observations and aphorisms that right at that time when I was working for Edward R. Murrow dealing with John Kennedy, making films about John Kennedy, that he took a shine to which are nice. But he used to say that the Greek definition of happiness the ancient Greeks, is the fullest use of one's powers along lines of excellence. And I discovered I read that and I said, this is the opportunity he has given me, we were making the best films that USAA had ever made. And because I was put there, I had this opportunity to make the fullest use of my powers. Alongside lines of options.

Adam: I use different language, perhaps not as eloquent. But exactly the same message. Most people in life are bad at most things. I think we're all good at a few things. We all have one thing about us that makes us special. And the more quickly you could figure out what it is about you that makes you special, the more successful you'll be in life, the more successful you'll be in business, and the more successful you'll be as a leader, Once you can uncover and unlock your superpower, that one thing about you that makes you great, the more successful you'll be. What is it that you bring into the world that makes you special? What is it that you bring into the world that can allow you to enormously impact others? Understand that, tap into that, and actualize it. That's what it's all about.

Adam: George, you've spoken about the impact that President Kennedy had on you. You spent your life around many of the most prominent leaders of the past 60-plus years. Who do you consider to be the best leaders you have been around? And what did you learn from them?

George: Well, if you sense my admiration for JFK, I would say the best leader was Robert F. Kennedy. I think as disruptive and awful as President Kennedy's death was, I think Bobby's premature death was more consequential for the country because I think he was ready to lead this country. Students respected him, labor respected him. And he just was such a wise and brave person. And so he had that quality of view, talking about following his vision, having a purpose, and tenacity. And, of course, I was very happy to be close to Barack Obama, when he was first thinking about running for president. And to see a person from his background rise to the top of office and have served two terms has been a real pleasure. And there are others. They were to learn it in one way or another. They had taken the world seriously and educated themselves. They had aspirations. They were ambitious. And as you and I have spoken, they knew about hard work, and they knew attention to detail. They knew to respect colleagues. They knew how to be tough. They knew how to be gentle. You have to grow into leadership. And you look at people you see how people do things. I was on a movie set with my father on Shane, you know, I was 17 years old. And I saw him with all of this apparatus up in Jackson Hole in the Grand Tetons. And what he's really doing is telling a story, that he's got hundreds of people and lots of horses, lots of cameras, but he had that internal vision. And he knew how to bring people to him. I never heard my father raise his voice on a movie set, you know, if he had a bullhorn to say, bring the cattle in now. But in terms of even shouted people, he just had to strengthen that attracted people to him. And they were a little fearful of him because his demands were so high.

Adam: You bring up an interesting point, which is the very best leaders don't raise their voices. They don't need to raise their voices, and it's not who they are. I did an interview with one of the early guests on Thirty Minute Mentors, a friend of mine, General Tom Trask. And something that he told me is that over the course of his entire career, in the armed services, he never raised his voice. And when you think of the very best leaders, the leaders who you've encountered in your life, no matter what discipline you're in, you could be talking about the best leaders in the military, you could be talking about the best leaders in Hollywood, you could be talking about the best leaders in finance, the best leaders anywhere, are those who understand that on one hand, it's about leading with love, care, and kindness. And on the other hand, leading with accountability. Your dad understood that he didn't need to raise his voice. They feared him and they respected him because he led with accountability.

George: Nobody was working harder than he was. 

Adam: And he led by example. You spent your life around people who have attained greatness. Greatness in whatever they've pursued. Great actors, actresses, great writers, directors, the all-time greats. In your experience, what separates those who have been able to attain the next level of success and what are the keys to attaining greatness?

George: I did the Kennedys Senator honors for 37 years. And we honored that period of 192 individuals who were all world-class, and I wish I could say there's a defining characteristic. It's the things we talked about. Nobody works harder than Yo-Yo Ma, preparing himself. Yo-Yo said to me, when I ran the President's Committee on the Arts and Humanities during Obama's eight years, and we set up a program, to put arts into the least performing schools, as defined by the Department of Education, feeling that these young children coming into contact with their potential, to write to sing to play an instrument would give them some confidence. And it proved that it did translate to their studies later on. I went with Yo-Yo, the world's greatest cellist, to a school in Washington, D.C., one of these difficult, less-performing schools, and he was going to play with the kids. He talked to them and he played. The kids were just so enraptured. And Yo-Yo was so brilliant. And I asked him later, and he said, “When I play the cello for people, for an audience, that's the most important audience, I will play for all year.” So he played for those kids as he would play in Carnegie Hall. He wanted them to get the best. So comparing ourselves to people who achieve that kind of greatness can be misleading, we have to do our best at whatever we're able to do. You can't compare yourselves to Muhammad Ali, Yo-Yo Ma, and Bruce Springsteen. You got to keep it in your head in your range. You said it very well, Adam, finding what you're good at, and doing your best. 

Adam: And I agree with you completely. At the same time, I'm a big believer in trying to learn from others, trying to learn from the greats, and trying to understand what allows people to attain the next level of success. And to the extent, you can emulate it, and something that you shared, which I think is incredibly valuable, something that you took away from your conversation with Yo-Yo Ma, the fact that no matter where he is, he's present. He's always holding himself to the highest standards, you know, he's always giving his best effort. And that's something that anyone can do. You don't need to be a world-class musician. You don't need to be a world-class athlete. You don't need to be world-class anything. You just need to be a world-class human being. 

George: Yeah, I want to add one thing, a word that has not come up. And I'm not going to define it. It's the word integrity. And whatever one can do, we all have to make choices in life. I had an example of three men whom I respected for their integrity. My father, in an addition to being a great director, a good citizen, Admiral, who was, probably the most important broadcaster of his time, and a good citizen. And I would say, Robert Kennedy, because I so admired who he turned into, and Bobby was one who evolved all along, including after his brother's death, which struck him so hard. And so just to give some thought to what integrity means to me. And they're the obvious things of being fair, being respectful. But it's a thought that is nice to have in your brain somewhere.

Adam: And I really appreciate you bringing it up. In my interviews with hundreds of the most successful leaders in America, I've come up with a list of what I believe are the most important characteristics of the most successful leaders. And right in that list, is morality, a synonym for integrity. So I'm with you 110%. 

George: Good. 

Adam: George, in your book, My Place in the Sun: Life in the Golden Age of Hollywood in Washington. You share a lot of stories involving so many of the big names who you got to know intimately over the years. And I'm gonna throw a couple of names at you. And I want to know if you could share with listeners, the single best lesson you learn from your time spent with them. Starting off with Steven Spielberg.

George: Steven has made the most of what God gave him. And he just was not predicted. And he's maintained it. It's the same thing as imagination and hard work. I would add this thing of creativity. I'm in a creative medium that I learned early on, I had to understand the business. I had to know where the money was going. Because that really armed me. So I can do my creative work. If I didn't, somebody would say no, you can't do this. And by proving to myself that I was going to deliver a reasonably near budget, and give them something outstanding, that I couldn't say, I don't want to worry about that. I have been worried about everything, and Steven Spielberg is the complete kit, and he's an outstanding businessman. 

Adam: What is the single best lesson you learn from your time spent with another great filmmaker who AFI has honored and has had a very close relationship with Martin Scorsese?

George: Different from Steven Marty, kind of from that Italian world. In New York, he created sort of a character of his own that flowed through his movies. And I also admire Marty because he and Steven both take an interest not only in their own films, but in the films of others, the preservation of classic films, and encouraging new filmmakers.

Adam: Your close friend, one of the all-time greats, who sadly is no longer with us. Sidney Pottier.

George: Sidney was a miracle. Such a wonderful man. If you've seen him in the movies, you see his personality, and that is what you get. And we were brought together long ago. I guess our friendship, from the 1960s until his recent death, and he's been one of the richest companions that I've had. When you think that Sydney came from our island in the Bahamas, not speaking English well, and ended up hopping a freight train to New York, by Nina Jewish waiter, who said you better learn to speak English. Better if you want to be an actor, and then made himself into one of the finest actors, and one of the most impressive human beings of his time. I love him.

Adam: Another one of the all-time greats, Cary Grant.

George: Oh, Cary Grant, I'm not going to give you any lessons from Cary Grant, because I don't know how Cary Grant made himself into Cary Grant. That there have been a few more winning actors. It's interesting. Recently, we have restored the movie Penny Serenade that my father directed in 1940, with Cary Grant and Irene Dunne, filled with humor, drama, and tragedy, and it's now going to be restored, and people are going to be seen. And I'm just so happy we're doing it because it was the picture that got Cary his first Academy Award nomination. And he only had one other and he never won an Oscar. He had all the other awards and rewards.

Adam: George, what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

George: I'm going to add one thing that's particular to me. And I'm trying to encourage my grandchildren to do it. And not altogether with success. But writing notes, and writing letters. I am a much more productive person and successful person. Because early on, I took pleasure in writing a note to someone who had done something good or had done something that I liked and appreciated or lost apparently. And I think too few of us take the opportunity. It's best, nothing like an envelope coming in the mail, particularly today when everything that comes in is advertising. But the power of the pen and the power of the mind to be in touch with people. And if somebody's done something for you, I've handwritten a thank you. And I must say, I have letters of that sort from Steven, from Marty, from Sydney. I mean, people who are successful and have empathy are considered our letter writers. And I would just say to people who are asking for advice, just remembered as a tool, and also to be able to write and articulate your plan. A friend of mine, when we were collaborating on the Kennedy Center Honors, we'd say, well, that I don't think Sinatra with you know, he's, I'll say, well, I'll write him a letter. And we would write the most persuasive letters, my friends had you give a good letter, and I've been writing letters and sending notes. And I just urge people to consider it as a possible tool.

Adam: George, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors. 

George Oh, Adam, I just enjoyed this so much and learned from you. As I say if people keep listening, they will learn.

Adam: I don't know if you learned as much from me as I learned from you. This is amazing. Thanks again.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally-recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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Adam Mendler