Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Interview with Guardian Insurance CEO Deanna Mulligan

I recently interviewed Deanna Mulligan on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a Fortune 500 CEO and is regularly named as one of the 50 most powerful women in business. Deanna Mulligan is the CEO of Guardian Insurance, one of the largest insurance companies in the country, with almost 13 and a half billion dollars in annual revenues, and just under $80 billion in assets. Deanna is also the author of the new book, Higher Purpose, a guide for leaders and companies to help close the skills gap. Deanna, thank you for joining us.

Deanna: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me, Adam.

Adam: Deanna, can you take listeners back to the early days of your journey? What were the experiences and skills that you developed early on that have been most instrumental to your success? And what are the most important skills that you would encourage listeners early on in their careers to develop?

Deanna: I think, first of all, the willingness to really work hard, I don't think there's any magical formula that doesn't include a lot of hard work, and a lot of thinking about what other people need from you and what you can do for them. I think being other directed, especially early in your career is really important. And, you know, for me, a really basic grounding in math and statistics and analytics has been important for my career, as you can imagine, in an insurance company, which really requires a lot of critical thinking, a lot of data analysis, and to get from the beginning of my journey to where I am now I've had to do a lot of that kind of work. So I think willingness to work, hard willingness to think about what other people need from you, and what value you're adding to them. And then in my case, a real grounding in analytical skills has been important.

Adam: Deanna, at age 41, you did something that most people in their 40’s who go on to become Fortune 500 CEOs don't do; you took a two year break in your career. What went into your decision to take a step back and what were the best lessons you learned from that experience?

Deanna: Well, I lived in New York, at the time I was in New York City, the day of 9/11, I lost a few people I knew in 911, as did many or most New Yorkers, I had someone in my family who had an illness, my husband had had a serious accident. So it's going to sound silly, but at 41 I was thinking about my mortality thinking, hey, I need to make sure that I'm really on the right path and that I'm doing all the things that I want to do or need to do because I may not have all the time in the world left. I felt like I had all this evidence around me that, you know, young people, younger than me, were dying, right? And I hadn't really been in that situation before. So I didn't leave my job immediately after 9/11. But eventually, I think that it was a driver that led me to just say, hey, I want to take a break to just reevaluate where I am, what I'm doing. Am I on the right path? And also just to take a little rest. It had been difficult in terms of a lot of, you know, illness and death around me and also working really hard at my job and not really having a lot of time to stop and smell the roses. So I decided I was just going to take a break and do that. And a lot of people did tell me that that wasn't a good idea that I was leaving a lot on the table that I might not be able to come back to the career path I was on. But I have to admit, I also had a number of friends and people I had known who had taken a break and said it was the best thing they'd ever done. And my initial plan was to take a six month break. I ended up taking almost a two year break. And I remember one friend said to me, Oh, you think you're going to take six months but it's really going to take two years and I remember thinking two years? That's just outrageous. Of course I won't take a two year break and I did. But in many ways I think it is the best thing I've ever done. I did not regret it at all.

Adam: A lot of people listening to the podcast are early on in their journeys and a lot of people listening to the podcast are really successful CEOs, leaders. Some of our listeners are Millennials, Gen Zers, and are thinking about whether to continue on that path to success, the traditional linear path, or whether to take a break, whether to take a breather. Other listeners may have followed more of the traditional path and are maybe mentoring some younger people in their lives or leading and managing people in their organizations who are of a younger generation. What advice do you have on the topic based on your own personal experience and your experience as a leader?

Deanna: Well, everyone's experience is different. And not everyone needs a break. But if you feel you need one, and there are some things in your life you need to figure out and you can find a way to afford to do so I would recommend it. I think a concentrated period for me, a concentrated period of thinking, studying, reading, broadly talking to people in different industries, considering what I really like to do and didn't like to do, and time to kind of spend with my family and friends that I really hadn't had up until then helped focus me and I think a break can be a great focusing and refocusing device and also a recharging for the second half of one's career. I mean, these days, people work really hard, everybody works really hard. And to go from age 20 or 21 to 65, say without a break is, you know, is a long time. So one of the things I felt that I got from my break was kind of a recharging and a reset of my health and time to really get in shape. A time to think about spiritual things, a time to focus on, you know, what my particular purpose in life was, or might be and how I might be able to carry that out in the second half of my journey. I didn't really have to admit, I didn't really think so much about that in the first half of my career, but because of the events around me, I decided that I really needed to think harder about what is the purpose of my life? If I were to die tomorrow, what would people say about me? What would they remember me for? Would I be one of those people whom everyone said, oh, she was this or she did this for me, she did that for me or she was all about other people. I didn't want to be remembered as you know, kind of a selfish career hack who didn't spend any time with my family and I felt in reflection that I needed to do more.

Adam: Along those lines. Can you talk about your mission? What is your definition of success? What does success mean to you? What does success mean to you as a Fortune 500 CEO? And what does success mean to you as a human being?

Deanna: Well, success as a Fortune 500 CEO and success as a human being, I hope those two aren't too far apart. Otherwise, you know, when your own definition of your personal success and the success of you, in your role, whatever your job is, if those two things are too far apart, I think that's a difficult situation to manage. I mean, my purpose as a human being is to take my talents and abilities and use them in a way that I can help a lot of other people and do it in a way that's maybe unique. What is it that I can contribute that not many other people can or no one else can, because that's probably what I should be doing. When you translate that into being a CEO of a Fortune 500 company- and I look back over the last nine years at Guardian, I think what we've done at Guardian as a team is it was a financially sound company when I took over and we've made it financially even stronger. We've helped people build their careers, we've provided good customer service. And most importantly, since we're a mutual company, and we're owned by our policyholders, so we're owned by our customers. We've allowed them to build financial security, and to really have peace of mind knowing that they're protected by a company that's 160 years old, and that's sound and conservative and is taking care of their money so to speak, so that when they have a claim, we will pay it promptly and courteously and without a lot of hassles, so that fits in with my personal mission of trying to use my unique talents to help as many people as possible. We have almost 25 million people who rely on Guardian for one sort of product or another. And so for me being the CEO of Guardian, is fulfilling to my personal mission, while fulfilling Guardians mission.

Adam: I love that. And one of the things that I speak a lot to audiences about is the importance of, very much along the lines of what you just said, identifying what it is about yourself, that makes you unique, that makes you special, that makes you different, and focusing as much as you can on that, because the more time you can spend on the things that you're good at, the more successful you'll be in life, the more successful you'll be in business, the more successful you'll be as a leader. And what I wanted to ask you is a question that I'm often asked, which is, how do you identify what it is that you're good at? How do you identify your superpower?

Deanna: I think that's a great question. And I think a lot of people struggle with that. And I would submit, it's not always easy. One of the things I had the luxury of doing during my time off was spending a lot of time thinking. So every morning, I said I would spend time writing in a journal, whatever sort of came to mind at the time. And I did a lot of reading and a lot of thinking through what things in the past I had really enjoyed and what things I had not. I do believe that the things you enjoy are often a clue to the things you're good at. And so just taking the time to sit down and write a list of things that you've accomplished, that you're really proud of things you've enjoyed doing. And then maybe even some things where the result might not have been what you wanted, but you really enjoyed the process. And I also think it's important to find a situation where your personal values, you know, where you can live those out every day. And so, in my case, you know, one of my personal values was helping people, especially people with their financial situations, because it seemed to be something I was good at. And something I also felt was really important. Now there are a lot of things in the world I think are important, but I don't have a particular skill that I think is, you know, differentiated from everyone else's. So it's both what are you good at and what are you maybe better at than some other people? And what does the world need? And where do those things intersect? And I know that's a little bit cliche because you read that a lot. I think that the way to find that is trial and error, but also lots of self reflection and self knowledge, which one gets I find by spending time alone and by thinking, by writing. And you know, there are a multitude of things on the internet and books and quizzes to help you think about what you like and what you enjoy. It's not easy; one has to do the hard, hard work.

Adam: It's definitely not easy, but I think you have a lot of great advice. What is a day-in-the-life look like for you? Today, you spoke about how your mindset has shifted since returning to the corporate world. Could you share your daily routine and key habits that have allowed you to excel on a daily basis?

Deanna: Well, it's a little bit different now in the COVID-19 environment we're in than it was before because we are all 100% working from home at this point. So my daily routine, you formerly involved a lot more traveling and commuting than it does today. A lot more, you know, dinners out, board meetings in faraway places, visiting customers, visiting salespeople. So these days, it's more in my office on Zoom with teams just like everybody else is. But things that are not negotiable in my schedule- I do find time every day to walk outside. I'm a person who really needs nature around me and is really inspired by the outdoors and by nature- it is very important. For much of my life I've been a horseback rider, so riding outside is very important to me. Since COVID I haven't been doing that as much, but that's another way that I kind of come back to myself and find connection with myself no matter what. I also like to eat healthy and I do. I eat, you know, real meals with, you know, vegetables and protein and starch and occasional sweets. I think it's important to have very regular eating habits and exercising habits when one is pulled in a lot of different directions schedule wise which, of course, as you might imagine, I am.

Adam: What are the best tips you have on managing your schedule and managing time? How do you manage your time? And how do you manage all the competing priorities that you face?

Deanna: Well as CEO of a Fortune 500 company, as one might imagine, I have staff to help me. So it's not that I'm doing this all on my own. But I think a good general principle for anyone, whether you're managing your own time, or your help, you're delegating your time management with supervision to someone else is, is this something that someone else can do better than I can, or as well as I can do? If someone else can do it better, or at least as well as then it's not something I need to do. I want to spend my time on the things only I can do. So that's really important when you're a Fortune 500 CEO, because you get many more, 567 times as many requests for your time as you have time available. So it's really important, but one of the things I did in my time off and after my time off, I did some consulting, and I ran my own business and I was kind of responsible for my own time. And even then, I would ask myself, the question; is this something only I can do? And I found it useful to have an office manager to do the billing for my little firm. I've always hired people to, you know, help me at home run errands, whatever I can. Because quite frankly, I could create a lot more value spending time on my business, whatever it is, either that's being Fortune 500 CEO or ,back in the day, when I ran my own little consulting firm doing, cleaning my house or running errands or, you know, doing some other things that I might be able to delegate. So I think people might say, well, that's a real privilege to be able to afford to hire those people to help you. But the secret I found is, well, I need to create more value and be paid more than I'm paying them. And as long as I'm being paid more than I'm paying them, then it makes sense to do it that way. And so what's the secret to being paid more than the people you're paying is to delegate. It's to find ways to really add value to other people. And by the way, whatever you're charging other people for your services, they're finding that valuable, more valuable than you are, right? Otherwise, they wouldn't be paying you. So as a consultant, you really need to add value to a company in excess of what they're paying you and they'll continue to hire you. As a Fortune 500 CEO, my leadership ability, my decision making, along with the people that have the people on my team- I have to give the board and our customers and policyholders, our owners, confidence that what they're paying me makes sense. And so it goes back to the principle that I talked about in the beginning, which is you always have to be other-focused. Am I adding value to the people who are paying me? Am I adding more value than they're paying me for? Now, if you're adding too much value, and you're not charging enough, you might charge more. But there's always that balance. But it's constantly thinking about what more could I be doing for them. And if you do that, you'll find that you'll be able to make enough money to focus on that one thing and delegate to everyone else. Or you'll be able to create the kind of value that allows you to, quite frankly, stay in your job as a very senior executive. Because no matter how high you rise in life, there's always someone who's judging your performance. If you’re CEO, it's the board of directors, the customers, if you're a congressperson at your constituents, if you're a not-for-profit, volunteers- it's the people you're helping, right? You always have to be focused on your constituents and how they view you and what they're getting from you, what that value is. And as long as you're doing that most of the other things will take care of themselves.

Adam: That's great advice and a really important perspective. What are the key characteristics of a great leader? You lead one of the most prominent companies in America. In your experience, what makes a great leader and what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Deanna: Well, obviously there have been a lot of books written on that topic, on the topic of leadership by people smarter than I am. So, you know, I hate to say, this is what makes a great leader because I think some of the leadership is situational, right? What works in the battlefield may not work in the ballet, although some of it probably transfers over. What works, you know, in the priesthood may not work in a retail store. So there is such a thing as Situational Leadership. But I do think that one thing great leaders share in common is this other directedness, or other focus that I just said; it's their desire to really make an impact on something beyond themselves. I think, if you think you want to be a leader, because you think it'll be exciting, or there's going to be a lot of glory, or there's a lot of prestige, or you'll make a lot of money, and that's your reason for becoming a leader, you might have a hard time becoming a leader, and if you become one, you may not stay one for long. If you are really going to be successful over the long term, I think you need to see leadership as an opportunity to help other people reach their potential, to help an organization reach its goals, as opposed to help other people reach their goals, as opposed to what's in it for you. I mean, what's in it for you will follow, you don't have to worry about that. That's not the objective function. The objective function is, as I said, before, you know, to make things better. And I think great leaders, if you think through any kind of leader, you want to name anybody from, you know, a football coach to a president to a corporate CEO, this whole idea of making the team better is going to be very high on their list.

Adam: Very well said, I couldn't agree with you more. Something really troublesome to me- and as I was preparing for this interview, I didn't realize that there are only 37, Fortune 500 CEOs that are women. And I knew the number was low, but 37, that is an embarrassing number. That's a number that as a society we should be ashamed of. And I want to ask you as one of the 37 female Fortune 500 CEOs, what can all of us do, as leaders, male or female, to help close the gender gap across society?

Deanna: Well, you say 37 Fortune 500 CEOs, when I became CEO of Guardian, there were only 14. So we've actually made progress in the last nine years now, not fast enough, but we are making progress. When I graduated from business school, there was only one, and there had been very few, you know, in history, so it didn't even seem like a realistic goal to me, to be CEO of a Fortune 500 company. So I think, first of all, things are changing, not changing fast enough, but they are changing. And I think there is a lot of focus right now from corporations, CEOs, and governments on inclusivity. And not just for women, but of all, you know, differences. And I think we are seeing research now that more inclusive organizations, be they, you know, companies or other types of organizations, tend to perform better. And I think it's really important to have diversity of thought. And that diversity of thought comes in all different packages. So I do think the recommendation is there, and that companies have thought about this for a long time and have had maybe a difficult time putting it into action. But I think you're going to see more progress going forward. I do think we need to focus on career development, and really helping diverse candidates who might get stuck at a certain level, think through what it is that's holding them back and what it is that they need to develop or what it is the organization can do to help them and really be on the lookout to make sure that you know, we pave the way for everybody to be successful. We are doing that at Guardian. We are proud of our diverse board and our diverse company and our diverse field force. But we think we can do more. So we've recently committed to even more aggressive goals and those include everything from hiring, to training, to development to coaching, mentoring, support groups, employee assistance groups. And I think you're going to see that for many companies and many organizations and I'm optimistic that we are going to have a more diverse world going forward. But it's not easy.

Adam: I'm optimistic, too. I'm hopeful too. I think a lot of it comes down to our mindset, our dedication and really taking the way that we feel and turning it into action. And along those lines, I want to ask you about your book, Higher Purpose, which is focused on how leaders and businesses can close the skills gap and meet the employment challenges that are facing organizations across the country. And I wanted to ask you a few questions. Number one, what are your best tips for leaders on the topic of hiring? This is a question that no matter how big your company is- you could be an entrepreneur of a small business, or you could be a Fortune 500 CEO, you're probably facing some challenge around hiring. And question number two is specific to you. What do you look for in candidates that you hire and how should leaders approach this process?

Deanna: Well, once again, a big question and I’ll try to do a kind of a high level answer and then we can dig deeper. So yes, the title of my book, which is coming out at the end of October is called Higher Purpose and the reason that I entitled it that way, is that I do believe that at Guardian, as part of our mission, that we should do everything we can to make sure that we are, first of all hiring the right people and hiring diverse people, but then once they arrive in the company, to make sure they have opportunities to grow and to be rescaled. As the world changes, I mean, the world's changed a lot in the nine years I've been CEO and the kind of skills we need have actually changed quite a bit. And so we put, at Guardian, programs in place to help people think through their career development and to attain specific skills they might need for newer jobs. And in my book, I talk about how I think that this isn't the job of just the government, or just education, or just not for profits- companies have to be involved as well. And it really sort of takes a village to keep our American workforce. It takes a diverse set of players, not just the government, not just schools, not just individuals, but companies as well, to make sure that our workforce is up to the task ahead of us, which I think we see a little taste of it now, in the COVID-19 time, how many things were already digital and online, but many more things are moving that direction. So the skills required of employees that were already changing are probably changing more rapidly. In addition, in this time period, we have a number of unemployed people who are furloughed, people who were just not even close to that situation before. So we need to think through how to help them. Many of them will be reemployed in their old jobs when this is over. But maybe the roles will change and the skills needed will change. And I think it's a concerted effort of the government, not for profits, of educational institutions, and companies. At Guardian, one of the things we've done, for example, is we've partnered with community colleges. And we find a lot of diverse talent at community colleges. We have tried to say that a four year degree isn't necessarily a requirement. We’ve hired people in our IT organization from coding academies, we've retrained people inside the organization. We have a pilot going on right now where we're retraining call center workers and frontline workers to do coding and to have an opportunity to have a career in technology. We've taken actuaries who are the lifeblood of insurance companies, but learn to price insurance and do rating and so on in a more statistical data sampling way. And now with the technology we have, sampling isn't necessarily required anymore. We can take all the data, we can crunch all the data, we don't have to take samples and analyze. So we've helped actuaries upgrade their skills to be data analysts. And those are just two examples of what we've been doing internally to try to help people retrain and we've also, you know, reached out to the community we partner with, not for profits, for example, and power has helped us find veterans and diverse people who have non traditional backgrounds to join our IT department. Community colleges- we have sent people with two year degrees. We have internships for high school students, so they can understand the world of work and some of them go on to four year colleges and some go to two year colleges. And, you know, if it's appropriate, some can stay with us. So we've tried to really diversify our sources of hiring. And I think that's really important. When you talk about hiring great people, what we tend to look for in the second part of your question is, I think, attitude that, you know, there's the old saying, attitude is more important than aptitude. And while a certain skill set might be necessary, that skill set can be learned. But attitude, going back to some of the other things I was talking about earlier, in terms of thinking about what you can contribute, not just what the company is going to give to you, it's probably the most important thing. And at Guardian, because we're a purpose driven company, employees coming on really have to be aligned with our purpose, right? Our purpose is helping people. Our purpose is having, creating financially strong futures for all of our customers and people we come in contact with. Our purpose is not to enrich ourselves and to, you know, or to build something that we're going to, you know, sell or spin off, or whatever. We've been here 160 years, we hope to be here another 160 years more. We plan on always being owned by our customers. So people coming to work for us need to understand, there's not going to be, you know, a stock option realization event at the end of this. We're in it for the long haul. And they need to be focused on purpose and to really derive joy and satisfaction from what we do for people. We're well paid, and we pay people well. But it's a long term, rather than a short term opportunity. So that screens out a lot of people right away. And that's okay. People have different motivations at different points in their career, different people, you know, belong in different places. So we just know what kind of people's motivations are, and who tends to be successful at Guardian.

Adam: What's really interesting about the insight that you shared is how applicable it is to leaders across organizations. The businesses that I run are a fraction of the size of Guardian, but what we look for in people who we hire are exactly what you look for, we're looking for candidates with winning attitudes. We are looking for candidates who match our vision, who match our culture, who are in it, because they want to be here and are very much in line with what we're looking to do, what we're looking to achieve, and what we're looking to accomplish. And I think that whether you're leading a huge company, or whether you're leading a startup company, it ultimately comes down to your people. And it ultimately comes down to finding the right human beings and being willing to overlook some of the traditional markers of success that we tend to get caught up and often stumble over. So I really appreciate that response. Exactly. I want to ask you one final question, and it relates to your book. But it also really relates to something that I've learned since starting 30 Minute Mentors. A key theme and higher purpose is the importance of lifelong learning and something that just about every single one of my guests has told me, either on the air or off the air, is just how integral lifelong learning is to success as a leader. And my goal through 30 Minute Mentors is to give listeners, no matter where they are in their careers, whether they're college students or Fortune 500 CEOs, an opportunity to learn from the most successful and accomplished people across industries. And what I wanted to ask you is, how can leaders engender a culture within their organizations that fosters lifelong learning? And more probably, how can leaders build a winning organizational culture?

Deanna: So, again, a big question. Let's go with a lifelong learning part. And I agree with your other guests and the people you've spoken with in the past; learning is probably the key to success for everybody. A wise person once told me shouldn't go to bed at night unless you can name one new thing you've learned that day. And it may only be something you've done in the kitchen, like learning how to peel a pineapple or maybe something big like solving a quadratic equation. It doesn't matter. Throughout your whole life you should learn at least one thing every day. And I think it's kind of an interesting challenge to try oneself. What did I learn today? When I meet someone, I say, what can I learn from this person? An important question to ask yourself, and one finds, one can learn from anybody, right? Anybody you meet on the street, anybody serving you in a restaurant, anybody. For me, I meet a lot of CEOs and congress people. But sometimes you learn just as much from, you know, someone you have a random interaction with in a retail store. So to constantly, constantly be on the lookout for what you can learn from other people, I think, first of all, sets you up for lifelong learning, but also makes you a more interesting and humble and grateful person, because you soon realize that you can learn things from everyone. So I would definitely use that tip. In terms of organizational culture, we've put a big focus on learning. As a matter of fact, August is Learning Month at Guardian and we just finished our big promotion where we had, you know, minutes, what we call bite sized courses. So 30 minutes over the lunch hour, where you can take a course on a topic that interests you; career development courses, to think about what you might do and where you want to go next courses on how to use your benefits. We have a very generous tuition reimbursement benefit for people who want to take college credits and community college credits. So how to make the best use of your educational benefit at Guardian. So we focus on learning all year round, but we tried to cram a bunch of learning into August and make that a real cornerstone so that people understand we're serious about it. And I think having the leadership team model, hey, we're all learning, we're all in this together, is really important. And I talk about what I've learned with employees a lot. And I have so much more to learn. Every day I wake up and think about how much more I have to learn and I learn a lot from the 9,000 men and women who work in my organization. They all have something to teach me.

Adam: Deanna, thank you for joining us, and thank you for all the great wisdom and advice.

Deanna: Thank you, Adam, for having me on your show. It's a real honor to be here.