I recently interviewed Henrique Dubugras on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is the co-founder of a FinTech company, most recently valued at $12.3 billion. Henrique Dubugras is the co-founder and co-CEO of Brex, which disrupted the corporate credit card business and is now focused on disrupting corporate spend management. Henrique, thank you for joining us.

Henrique: Thank you so much for having me.

Adam: Henrique, you grew up in Sao Paulo, Brazil. You started coding when you were 12 and you started scaling and sold a business of more than 100 employees all before you started college. Your time in college didn't last very long. You went to Stanford and dropped out as a freshman before starting Brax. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What experiences and lessons were most instrumental to shaping your worldview and to shaping the trajectories of your success?

Henrique: Yeah, for sure. I started coding when I was 12 because there was this game I wanted to play. I wanted to play this game. And I figured out that if I learn how to code, I could play for free. And then I went to ask my dad like, hey, how do I learn how to code? And he was like, oh, you go to middle school, then you go to high school, then you go to college and you get a computer science degree, then you'll know how to code. I'm like, well, I can't wait that long to play this game. So I decided to start learning by myself. And in the process, I was able to learn my own pirate version of the game that did really well. And I think the lesson from that is, you don't need to wait to learn anything. I think anything, especially with the internet, is learnable. And I think being able to be self-taught, is something that at least helped me a lot and helped me till this day. I think a lot of my job today is learning about different functions, both by myself and through other people, reading through the leaders in the company and the employees. So I think that's a skill that definitely was super important. And then the first value of Brex is to dream big. Which is, since it's been since the beginning, and we're always dreaming of bigger brackets. And I think that's something when you're talking about I started this business before college, and everyone told me that that was impossible, you're too young, or it's too complicated and industry and needs more experience. And I think that this value of dreaming big is it definitely brought me towards trying. That's also something that stuck with me over some period of time. And it's still till this day when people say, hey, this is impossible. And I go back to that value of dreaming big. And do that. And for Brex specifically, recently, people said, hey, it's impossible to build a global card system. We did that. It's impossible to build spend management for enterprises in 18 months, and then we did it. So I think that there's a lot that comes from that value as well. And this ability to self-learn.

Adam: I love it. Both are great lessons that are applicable to anyone of any age. You don't need to wait to start learning. No matter what it is you're interested in learning, dream big and set big goals. Surround yourself with people who are going to encourage you. They're always going to be naysayers. They're always going to be people who are going to tell you it's not possible. But people who have that growth mindset, who are positive thinkers, people who are ultimately getting to that next level themselves. The most successful people are the ones who are going to tell you it is possible. They're gonna be the ones cheering you along. They're gonna be the ones pushing you to get there, helping you get to that next step. That's exactly it. Henrique, you met your co-founder Pedro in a pretty unconventional way. Can you share with listeners how that relationship came to life? And what are your best takeaways on how to cultivate, develop and maintain successful relationships and partnerships?

Henrique: Yes, I met my co-founder Pedro over Twitter. We were writing text editors on Twitter because text editors, they're kind of like your football team in the U.S. or soccer team in Brazil where I grew up, that it's something that you're very religious about and you debate a lot by a lot of AP. So we were fighting about him on Twitter. I was one called Vim, he was one called Emacs. And then it got too complicated to fight over 140 characters, so we went to Skype. And on Skype, we became best friends and decided to start a company together. And I would say that the lesson that we learned is a business partner is I would say, as important and as relevant as a marriage in my view, and you need to treat it as such. So it's a partnership, you need to support each other, and you need to work on the relationship. My girlfriend, when I started dating her, I used to say, we're engaged now but used to say that I was married to my co-founder, and he was the third one. Hopefully, that changed a little bit. But I think that's the level of relationship that is required to build something with someone for a long period of time, instead of just hey, you do this part, I do that part. But we're embarking on this journey together, and we're gonna have ups and downs on both sides. And we're gonna help lift each other up. And sometimes I'm going to be carrying more weight, sometimes you're going to be carrying more weight. But we're going to be supportive of each other not only business-wise, but personally. And I think that that feeling of someone in business that has your back, no matter what is what allows you to take risks and go on for a long period of time. So when people asked me, a lot of times, hey, Henrique, like, what if it doesn't work? Or, you're not scared? Pedro is my co-founder, my foundational rock, I always would respond. Well, if it doesn't work, Fisher, and I know, we'll just go back to some room and do it all over again. So I guess that level of stability in something is what allows you to take a lot of risks.

Adam: Do you have any tips for anyone listening on number one, how to try to find someone like that? You found your co-founder in an extremely unconventional way. So first and foremost, ideas on how others could find that great partner? And then number two, when you do find someone who you engage in such a deep, strong relationship with, what are the pitfalls to look out for? And how do you avoid them?

Henrique: Yeah, I think my tip to finding someone is just to try to meet a lot of people that you admire, and don't be afraid to follow up. So I would say out of my imperious personality, I'm definitely more of the one who was always following up in the beginning. And I had to double-text him and I just admired him a lot. And I wanted to do something with him. So don't feel afraid to do that. I think there's always someone who's a little bit more outgoing and someone who's a little bit shy. I was definitely the more outgoing one. So I felt I was pitching him way more to be my co-founder than the other way around. But it works really well in the end. So I would say, don't be afraid to put yourself out there and insist a lot get someone to do stuff with you. The other thing I'd say is, there's a certain level of someone who's similar enough to you, but different enough. So I would say similar enough to you in terms of values and ambition, but also complementary, and a set of terms of skill set. So I would say Pedro and I, even though we have similar backgrounds, we were both engineers since we were kids. We're very complementary in terms of what we like doing and what we're good at. But we have the exact same values in terms of like, what we want to do with our lives, what we want to build how much time and dedication want to dedicate to work. All of these are pretty similar.

Adam: When you're in such a close relationship, what are there key pitfalls to look out for? And how do you avoid them?

Henrique: I would say that the key pitfall is a zero-sum mentality, which is, in order for me to get credit for something, you have to not get it or vice versa. Or like in order for me to make money, men need to take from you. And the mentality of everything is expanding the pie. If you think about it, the best way to generate wealth was not to get more of the pie is just making the pie bigger. And the same thing as credit or recognition is it's not about getting more recognition for why is just getting more recognition for everyone for the company. So I think the zero-sum mentality is probably the most dangerous thing for co-founders.

Adam: And you've been able to generate a significant amount of wealth through Brex. How did the idea for Brex emerge? And how and when did you know it was winter?

Henrique: So I would say it emerged when we were doing YC in 2017. And we realized that there are all these startups that had raised a lot of money but couldn't get a corporate card. And I would say that was the initial founding of Brex, and we built this corporate card product. A company goes through a journey of many findings. And I would say that probably in the second year that we launched and we weren't growing super quickly. That was when I thought that it was winning. But then recently as we're getting into more spend management and going upmarket and launching and power, which is our new product, that I would say is the refounding of Brex. And you go through the pretty similar feeling of the founding, where you go from, hey, I'm winning to I'm not winning yet. So okay, now I'm winning again. And I think really good companies, go through multiple these moments.

Adam: And you brought up a really important moment that you're going through right now, pivoting your business model, and businesses are continually pivoting. People are continually pivoting their lives and their careers. This is a significant pivot for Brax, strategically, operationally, as an entrepreneur, and as a leader. When do you know it's the right time to pivot? And what are the keys to pivoting successfully?

Henrique: So I think that the important thing is not being afraid to leave the good and pursue the great. When you build conviction that that's the right thing for the business or for your career, sometimes there are a lot of risks associated with it. And there will be sacrifices, nothing is free. I think it's very important to build conviction and go without looking back. And I think the other thing that's very important, and this is in the context of fitting a business is focusing on the customer. How do you make sure that no matter what you're doing, you're all still in pursuit of servicing the customer what they need? So I think that's super important.

Adam: Can you give me any specific tips tactically, for entrepreneurs, for leaders, to best understand their customers, what steps can they take?

Henrique: Nothing replaces talking to customers yourself. So both selling, doing supports, implementing, get some of the operational function that your company has, and go do that because you're getting real customers with real issues, real situations. I think a lot of times, it's better than the research situations. So I would just, if you don't have that yet, then just talk to customers in general, and make sure you're almost trying to prove the opposite point that you believe in the conversation, because it's so easy to get into a customer and confirm your own viewpoints. I think it's important for you to try almost to do the opposite. Okay, look, let me see if you can prove that I'm wrong. Instead of, let me see if you can prove that I'm right.

Adam: Those are both such great pieces of advice. First and foremost, the power of being there, being on the ground, getting your hands dirty, rolling up your sleeves, and understanding for yourself with your own eyes, who your customer is and what your customer is all about. If you don't know your customer intimately. How is anyone else going to? You need to know your customer better than anyone else. And secondly, as entrepreneurs, we always think that we have the best product. And it is when you go in and you go to talk to your potential customer. And you're able to eliminate that bias. Is this really a great product? Is this as good as I think it is? I really liked that one. Henrique, you've led this highly successful business valuation of over $12 billion. In your experience, what are the keys to effective leadership? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Henrique: I got this advice from Evan Spiegel from Snap many years ago. I met him in 2016 and I asked him a similar question. And it was really helpful to plug my journey because I've been personally diagnosed with a pretty strong case of ADHD. So I actually have a super easy time reading. And you think, oh, that's crazy. You code as a kid. But I have an easy time hyper-focusing on things that I'm super interested in. But if I'm not completely interested in something, you know, I have a hard time. And when I look at these entrepreneurs, Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos, they're telling me about reading 50 books a year. I'm like, I can barely read two a year. Reading is so hard for me. And I gave me a lot of insecurity because I'm like, hey, I'm not like those guys. I can't do that. Like this Elon Musk guy, he read rocket science books, and Craig Wright, I cannot do that. And I talked to him and he's like, hey, the most important thing is being an authentic leader. It's like, what does that mean? Like, hey, the thing about being a leader is you're never gonna, especially in a high growth company, you're never gonna get that much better and think that you're really bad at it. You kind of need to find a way to just be the better version of yourself, but lean on your strengths and focus on them. And obviously, try to get better at the things you're bad at. But you're never going to be excellent at something that is not your thing. And there are leaders that are successful in many ways. Great entrepreneurs like Bezos, he is different than Elon, and is different than Steve Jobs, and is different than Bill Gates is different than Benioff. And you just need to find not try to emulate some other leader, but try to find what is the best version of yourself. And I think that was very eye-opening for me because I focus a lot more on playing to my strengths than trying to emulate my perception of some of these great entrepreneurs.

Adam: Henrique, I could not agree with you more. I'm a big believer that most people in life are bad at most things. You mentioned, one thing in life that you're bad at AI could match you and raise you tenfold. And if we're honest with ourselves, we're all bad at most things in life. But we're all good at a few things. And we all have that one thing that we're great at. And to your point, it's about acknowledging that you could spend all day and all night worrying about your weaknesses. But it's about leaning into what makes you great. Identifying your superpower. And going all in on it. Never tried to be the second-best version of someone else. Be the best version of yourself. I've heard that advice from so many great leaders that I've spoken to, great leaders who've been on this podcast. And it's universally applicable, no matter what you're trying to do. If you're trying to emulate someone else, no matter how great that person is, you're never going to be as good as you can. If you just try to be the best version of yourself, be you, you are exactly that.

Adam: You've built this highly innovative company. In your experience, how can leaders build innovative cultures? Cultures that fuel innovation? And what do you look for in the people who you hire?

Henrique: This is one of the things I probably changed my mind about most over the years. I used to think that like, hey, you just pick the culture that you want. And go do it. But I think today that you kind of need the culture that is required for your business to win in your industry. And that's an important nuance because Google's culture works for Google and worked for them clearly for 20-plus years. But it would definitely not work for Amazon. And I think Amazon's culture definitely worked for Amazon and probably wouldn't work for Google. Because of just different industries, and different needs. And I think the culture is in service of the customer. So for example, I came from Brazil, and my biggest mentors work as the founder of 3G capital, which builds a super cost-cutting culture. And I came to tech, that was super successful for them, it should be for us, and then a bunch of issues of having that in tech, because but for their business, the top line doesn't gross up a lot. So the way you grow earnings per share is by cutting costs. In tech, you're trying to grow 10x in one year, so you can't really save your way to success. When you're doing a consumer company, obviously, you need a different set of things when you're doing a B2B company in an enterprise. So I think it's important to build a lot of the culture for your customers. What's going to deliver your most chance of success or building the best service for our customers? I think in terms of hiring, we've tried a lot of different things. I would say, probably the most common trait that makes one successful at Brex are leaders who can operate at all levels. So leaders can go from writing a med document themselves and going into the details all the way to high-level vision and strategy. That is probably the most common predictor of the success of a leader Brex.

Adam: Yeah, I love it. Can you talk a little bit more about how Brex has gotten to this place? What would have been the keys to scaling to this point?  And more broadly, what are your best tips for anyone listening on how to grow and scale their business?

Henrique: I know it's cliche, but really think about how to build systems in your company that make sure that people are doing right by the customer. And what I mean by that is that it's very easy to set goals that are a financial incentive for the company, our growth incentive, and our shipping date incentive. But how do you make sure you create things that make it so you're doing right by the customer from day one? That's super important. So an example of that is, how do you create a system in which your product managers are talking to customers constantly? Because you can say, go talk to customers. And they may or may not go do that. But how to create something that forces them to do so customer advisory boards for example, or weekly customer calls of the senior? How do you create operational cadences in the company that just forces it? We're very big believers that a lot about companies is building systems and building operations, okay, cadences that force the right behavior, plus culture for when it's ambiguous. And if you just focus on the customer, everything goes falls after that.

Adam: Yeah. And your main tip, implement systems is a great tip. But what really stands out to me is the focus on the customer and customer-centricity. Essentially, regardless of what business you're in, you need to continually be thinking about your customer. And when you can marry the two, when you can marry building great systems around a focus on the customer around a customer-centric culture, that's when you're able to scale. 

Henrique: Absolutely. 

Adam: You've raised $1.5 billion, it's a pretty big number. What are your best tips for anyone listening on how to raise capital and how to raise capital the right way?

Henrique: I think the best way to think about it is raising capital is like selling a product. And the product is the future cash flow per share of your company. And the way to raise money really well is to really understand the buyer, who are the investors, and the buyer is trying to look for a certain set of things and understand their mentality. And I think the more you understand the buyer, which is the investors, the better shot you have of raising money from that who are selling something, which is your shares, which are equivalent to the future cash flows of your business. So one of the things that I did pretty early on is I spent a good amount of time with investors, not just pitching wrecks, but understanding how it is to be in their job. What are the incentive systems? What are they looking for? What do they look for in companies, and independently of an investor that was gonna invest in your business? Just try to put yourself in their shoes. And then how do you position your business and your story to something that they're looking to do tomorrow? So I would say that's more general advice. The more specific one is, I sometimes talk to founders, and they have a story on, this is what we do right now. And this is our long-term vision which is 10 years in the future. But a pretty bad story of what are the steps on how to get there. And I think that's an important piece to think of, okay, like, you start here. And then you go here, here, here, here, and you don't need to be right. But because of a lot of times that changes. I think you need to have the mental clarity to explain how it's going to work. And even if you're wrong, and you have to change, that's okay. But it shows that you thought through it.

Adam: Put yourself in the shoes of others, which is applicable, period. It helps you become a better leader, it helps you become a better human being. And your second point speaks to the importance of the power of communication, and reggae for all of your success. You're only in your late 20s, I wish I was still in my late 20s. Something you've done so successfully is surrounding yourself with great mentors. It's a big part of your success. You mentioned a big lesson you learned from the founder of Snap. How have you been able to establish and develop relationships with mentors? And how can anyone find a great mentor and optimize a mentor-mentee relationship?

Henrique: You just need to try enough of them and for some people, you just click more. I think it's something hard to manufacture because every person that can be a mentor is different. And they only pick a few people to mentor and help. But I think the one thing that's probably generally applicable is the way you get to that mentor matter. So I would say that a lot of times when there was someone really important or really good that I wanted to meet, I actually waited until I got a really good introduction. Because I think some of these people get a lot of interest from people. And I think where you come from matters a lot. So the first one that I mentioned, was my mentor in Brazil, near the cost-cutting, he introduced me to Evan, which was a really good intro, and he helped me out in the beginning. And I think that mattered, you know, I think if it were through different avenues, I don't know how well that would have been gone. But I think that building a good network and getting the right interest from the right people. I know, it's a little bit cliche, but I think it does matter. And then just being curious, genuinely curious, and appreciative. I would say that another piece of advice I would give a mentorship is, to mentors, the reason they do it is to feel impactful. Very few of the good ones are doing it for the money or for whatever you want to feel impactful. So if they give you advice, and they never hear from you, again, they don't see how their time with you was impactful. Versus if they give you advice and then you send them a note later saying how you use their advice to impact your company, it feels really good. It feels really impactful. So again, goes a little bit of understanding the buyer and what they want. And I think mentors want to impact or you kind of need to help them feel that.

Adam: You shared a number of really important tips. You can't force it. All relationships have to be authentic. You can't force a mentor-mentee relationship. The two parties have to like each other. The two parties have to want to spend time with each other. It was interesting when you shared how you were able to develop the relationship with Evan, it was one mentor connecting you to another mentor. It started with you developing a strong mentor-mentee relationship. You do your part, you hold up to your end of the bargain, and you are a great mentee. And you're demonstrating to your mentor, that you are worthy of him connecting you to another mentor. So yeah, a lot of it is who you know, your network, all that stuff. But it starts with you. It starts with you to your point, following up by proving your worth, demonstrating your worth, and adding value. Those are things that anyone can do. It doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, or what your title is, go out and do it. It starts by doing good work. It starts by being a good person and helping others and being proactive. One good relationship will lead to another good relationship.

Henrique: I would say that another thing that I noticed over time is that people tend to want a mentor to pay it forward to something they relate to. So I would say that the first one I mentioned, he was resilient, and I was resilient. There's not a lot of resilient entrepreneurs trying to do stuff. So in some ways, he was trying to pass it forward. And we had this Brazilian connection, the fact that was that level of relatability some way I think we've ever been. And we were both really young when we started and from Stanford, that was another level of relatability. And I see a lot of people that have those characteristics. So they kind of pass the floor to people that came from where they did and have something to help them. I think that's also maybe if you're going to curate people from your neighborhood, people from your city, people from your background, people from your school, from your fraternity, from your country, that's probably a good way to start. Because there's that immediate connection that comes from that.

Adam: It's a great way to start. Find a common bond. It comes back to relationships having to be authentic. You can't force two people to like each other. You can't force two people to want to spend time with each other. What are the things that are going to be likely to bring people together? Common interests, common backgrounds, and common bonds. I developed a mentor-mentee relationship with a great guy and it started over a shared love of baseball. He reached out to me because of my professional background. I used to work in the same industry that he currently works in. But we really develop this bond over the fact that he's a big baseball fan and I'm a big baseball fan. And it evolved into a real friendship. And that's how I've developed relationships with mentees and with mentors. It works both ways. And it always works out great. Henrique, what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Henrique: I think that one thing that helps a lot is I met super talented people that were working on something that didn't have a tailwind and less talented people working on things that have a tailwind, and just putting yourself at the right place so you can even have a chance of being lucky. It's something that you should try. So look, coming from Brazil, I know so many more talented people in Brazil that were a lot less successful than some people I've met in Silicon Valley. They're way less smart and way less hard-working just because of people who are in Silicon Valley between 2010 and 2020, there's just so much opportunity that you didn't even have to be that good to be successful there. Because you're in the right place at the right time. And I think that was probably true for Hollywood at some point, for the finance world in New York at some point. Trying to understand, what is the future? What are the current trends? And just allowing yourself to be in a place that allows you to have the chance of being in the right place at the right time. Well materially increases your odds of success independently of your talent.

Adam: Henrique, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors. 

Henrique: Thank you so much for having me.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally-recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

Follow Adam on Instagram and Twitter at @adammendler and on LinkedIn and listen and subscribe to Thirty Minute Mentors on your favorite podcasting app.