Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Former Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson

I recently interviewed Jeh Johnson on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a former cabinet member with a highly distinguished legal career. Jeh Johnson served as Secretary of Homeland Security from December 2013 to January 2017. And back in 1994, became the first African American partner at the top law firm Paul Weiss, where he currently practices today. Secretary Johnson, thank you for joining us.

Jeh: Adam, glad to be here. I look forward to our discussion.

Adam: I'm looking forward to it too. You served at the highest levels in government and in law. But growing up in New York, you were a self-described underachiever. You were a C and D student. And that trend continued through your sophomore year at Morehouse where you are running a 1.8 GPA? What changed the trajectory of your success and what inspired you and allowed you to work to and ultimately reach your potential?

Jeh: Good question. Incidentally, what you just referenced is now in my Wikipedia entry, so everybody knows it. I didn't put it there, but somebody else did. You're correct. When I was in high school, I was a terrible student. I lacked motivation. I lacked, with the exception of my immediate family, real role models. I was convinced that I was going to be a left-fielder for the New York Mets. We're talking about the early 1970s. Now, somehow I got into college, Morehouse College, Atlanta, Georgia. And my lackadaisical ways continued. I had a 1.8 GPA my freshman year, as you noted. And then one day, fall semester sophomore year, I realized I was not going to be a left fielder for the New York Mets. I was not going to make the Morehouse College football team. I was not going to make the Morehouse College Track Team, which had some really fast guys on it. One of the people I ran with, however, briefly was Edwin Moses who went on to Olympic fame. All I saw was the back of his head whenever I was on the same track with him. And I was sitting in my dorm and I was beginning to think about law school. And it came to me in an instant. Well, if you want to go to law school, you have to study. There is nothing left for you to do but study. And I just found it within me to focus on my GPA and focus on my studies. And so sophomore year, fall semester, I had a 3.0 GPA. I made the Dean's list. And then spring semester of sophomore year, I had a 3.5. And then for the remainder of my time in college, I had straight A's, which enabled me to get into law school. It was just simply by the proper inspiration. And Morehouse College is a place where people are inspired and dig down and work a little harder and exceed your own expectations. I tell graduates from colleges and universities, whenever I give a graduation speech, you are smarter than you think, stronger than you know. Citing my own example. I was very much a late bloomer.

Adam: I love that. It is a really important point for anyone listening, the power of setting higher expectations than you might otherwise think about setting for yourself. You might have a C or D average, in life it doesn't necessarily need to be a C or D average under GPA. But just because you're in a job, just because you're in a place in life that says a certain thing about you, it doesn't necessarily mean that that is who you are. All it takes is that snap of the finger to realize that if I just do something differently, if I think about things differently, if I approach things differently, I could be a completely different person.

Jeh: That's correct. When I do give a graduation address at a high school, say, I congratulate the honors students, the straight A's students. And then I say, now I'm going to talk to the bottom half of this class, if there's a top half of this class, by definition, there has to be a bottom half. And I'm talking to you, I was one of you. And kids really do snap to attention as do their parents, when I give that kind of address. And parents to this day, who attended graduation speeches of mine, five, six years ago still say to me, I remember that address. My kid remembers that address. Thank you so much for delivering that message.

Adam: What are the key messages that you try to convey in that talk?

Jeh: Well, again, if you dig down and you work a little harder. You're smarter than you think, stronger than you know, if you're willing to look for it. I cite the example of my son who ran track in high school and college. He topped out at a certain time for the 200 meter. And his coach pushed him a lot harder. And he took a whole two seconds off his time, which he didn't think he could do. And the other message I tried to deliver was one I received when I graduated from law school in 1982. Which is that, in the course of your lifetime, talking to somebody who's 18-22, or 25, you will see them do things beyond your current comprehension and eyesight. Again, the example of myself, when I heard that message, graduating from Columbia Law School, in May 1982. There was another kid on the Columbia University campus named Barack Obama, who was going to become the first Black president and I was going to serve in his cabinet, leading a Department of Government that didn't even exist in 1982. All of that would have been beyond my comprehension. And it's so true in the course, and the arc of one's life, and the arc of one's adult life, you will see and do things beyond your comprehension when you're finishing school.

Adam: Which is a powerful message and really speaks to the power of keeping an open mind.

Jeh: And this is another moral to the story and entertaining opportunities for yourself that may come your way that you did not anticipate. Two of the four jobs I had in government came totally out of left field for me. And I never expected to get hired for them. My first job in public service was an Assistant U.S. Attorney, a federal prosecutor. It's something I really wanted to do. And I eventually got to do it. The second job offered to me by the Clinton administration was General Counsel of the Air Force, a job I had never heard of, it came out of left field and I considered it. And I took it on and I really enjoyed it. Third job in the first term of the Obama administration in 2009 was General Counsel of the whole department of defense, which was very much anticipated. And the fourth job, Secretary of Homeland Security was a total surprise. I had left the Pentagon, I had left general counsel of DOD and gone back to private life. And then eight months later, he asked me if I would return to be Secretary of Homeland Security. And I didn't see that coming.

Adam: And we're going to talk about those experiences, particularly your experience leading the Department of Homeland Security. But I want to ask you along the way, what were the most important skills that you developed that allowed you to rise within your career and what can anyone do to rise within their career?

Jeh: I'm a lawyer. I'm trained as a lawyer. Over the course of my legal career. I have picked up certain lawyering skills and communication, writing, and logical thinking, that have aided me throughout my professional life, whether it's as a lawyer or the leader of a very large cabinet agency. Also in answer to your question, the ability to communicate, the ability to be honest and forthright with people, which even if they don't agree with what you're saying, will ultimately respect and the ability and willingness to try to grapple with hard choices and not delay them. The ability to deliver a hard message or make a hard decision, not take the easy way out, I think, are things that along my path of life, I have learned, that have aided me throughout my career.

Adam: What were the hardest decisions that you had to make as leader of the Department of Homeland Security? And how can leaders make successful decisions no matter how hard they are?

Jeh: The hardest decisions are not necessarily the best-known ones. When I was General Counsel of the Department of Defense, Senior Legal Official of the Department of Defense, I had to make life and death decisions, literally. The top lawyer for the Department of Defense very often has to give the legal sign-off for a lot of the U.S. military's counterterrorism operations. And so, a proposed operation would be brought to me very often with only a few minutes to spare. And I'd have to make a judgment, whether the strike on particular terrorist objective comports with the law of armed conflict, domestic law and international law. And if I say yes, somebody is probably gonna die. If I say no, then a dangerous terrorist objective might slip away. Those are very tough decisions. From a gut perspective, not necessarily always difficult legal decisions. There are some difficult legal decisions I had to grapple with, which to this day still largely reside within the classified box at the Department of Homeland Security. Making personnel decisions can be difficult, the decision to let somebody go can be difficult. A high-profile decision in the immigration space or the cybersecurity space can be extraordinarily difficult. But you gotta do what feels right. The other way to look at it, and I teach hypotheticals to military academies and law schools and elsewhere, sometimes when it's a pick your poison decision, with high stakes, you ask, what is worst thing that can happen if I do A and what's the worst thing that can happen if I do B? And if you conclude, well, the worst thing that can happen if I do A is this. And the worst thing that can happen if I do B is this, and B is a lot worse, that may lead to A. The other thing that I used to ask myself when I had to make difficult decisions. I feel comfortable defending that decision publicly, before the committee of Congress, probably the right decision.

Adam: And I would imagine that with each of those decisions, and more broadly, with each of these jobs that you've had, came an enormous amount of pressure. I've interviewed Hall of Fame athletes and Olympic gold medal winners. And I've asked them about how to perform under pressure. I've interviewed Grammy winners and asked them about how to perform under pressure. But you are literally in charge of protecting the United States of America. How did you manage the pressure that came with a job? And what are the keys to ultimately being able to perform under pressure?

Jeh: Everybody's different. Everybody finds a different way to handle the stress of a very high-stakes difficult decision. For me, it was and is, various touchstones in my life that I can return to that I'm comfortable with, like the house in New Jersey, which is our permanent home where I've lived for 25 years. This is very much my comfort zone. Or my music. I'm a huge fan of classic R&B music. Or my family, obviously my wife, my two kids, my parents, my dad was alive. There are things that give one comfort that you look forward to at that age when you are making a decision. And for me, as long as those have been constant in my life, it keeps me grounded. I develop a good sense of gravity and that's how I've been able to make difficult decisions. 

Adam: There's some really important lessons there for listeners. Keeping yourself grounded, having a strong support system, having balance in your life. As hard as you may work, as demanding as your job may be, you need to have something outside of work that brings you the perspective that will allow you to become even better at your job. Like you, I knew that I was not going to be playing major league baseball. I didn't want to be the left fielder for the Mets. I'm not a Mets fan at all. I'm an Angels fan. So, you and I have shared history. And I have a shared history of rooting for teams that are really good at breaking our hearts. But I love baseball, it relaxes me, it allows me to become better at all the things that I do professionally because it gives me a place where I can, in a sense, meditate by going to a baseball game or watching a baseball game. And for anyone listening to this podcast, it doesn't need to be baseball, it could be listening to music, it could be literally meditating, doing yoga, working out. And it's all about having that balance, no matter what your job is, you could be working a nine to five, or you could be the Secretary of Homeland Security.

Jeh: My form of meditation is putting on a headset, just like the one you have on now, and listening to my favorite music. That's my form of meditation. The other thing I'll say about making difficult decisions, in Washington, when you're leading a cabinet agency, when you're part of a president's cabinet, you're operating at a very high level, 35,000 feet and making policy. You're not making it with some exceptions, individual decisions involving individual people. But when making policy, it is always good to understand the real-life human impact of a decision. So let me take immigration, for example. I had to make lots of policy-level decisions that were going to affect immigration at large, the southern border at large. But I visited the southern border probably a dozen times in three years. And every time I went down, I would go to the border patrol holding stations, I would talk to the families, the kids that had crossed our southern border from Mexico from Central America and ask a translator, why did you come here? I might be having this conversation with a 10-year-old from Guatemala. And I would take those stories back with me to Washington on a human level. I wanted to scoop all these kids up. As a father, I wanted to scoop all these kids up and bring them back home with me, which I knew I couldn't. But when making a high-level policy decision, it is always good to keep those real-life human stories very much in mind. And so you operate and you make decisions at a macro level, but you always have to keep in mind implications at a micro level.

Adam: And that's such a great lesson for anyone listening. It doesn't matter what kind of organization you're leading. In your case, you lead a department that had a budget of almost $65 billion, almost a quarter of a million employees. You could be leading a small business. But it ultimately comes down to understanding your stakeholders, all of them. Each and every one. Can you share some more lessons with listeners that you learn from leading such a large federal agency that, in your view, are applicable to all leaders?

Jeh: A couple of things, one, inclusive, collaborative decision-making. You never make a judgment, you never make a decision in a vacuum. Whenever I had to make an important decision, I'd round up the seven or eight people most knowledgeable in the department of home management security, some of whom were not political appointees, some of whom were career bureaucrats. And I would encourage them to speak their minds. I call out the pros and cons of a decision. And I made sure that that group of advisers represented a range of views. And once I had those views, and I knew that they had been honest and forthright with me, I'd make a decision. Sometimes I'd side with the more progressive camp, sometimes I'd side with the more conservative camp. But out of that decision space would come, I think, a really solid, sustainable decision because it took account of a range of views. The other advantage to that is, if people feel like they've been heard, this is something Bob Gates taught me, one of the best leaders I've ever worked for when he was Secretary of Defense, I was his general counsel. One of the things he taught me was that if people feel like they've been heard, they're more likely to support your decision, even if they don't agree with every element of your decision. So when I made an immigration policy decision, I would consult some of the most pro-enforcement people in ICE and the Border Patrol. But, I heard them out. It didn't always come out their way, but after the process we went through, they would very often be prepared to support the decision I made because they understood it, they were comfortable with it, and they'd go out and support it. And they'd implement it, which is indispensable if you're leading a large organization and you count on dozens and hundreds of other people to help you with that. The other aspect of leadership, which I will share, is, there's no one right way to lead. There's no one right leadership style. Just like an excuse for the sports metaphor, there's no one right way to hit a baseball. Some hitters have a tight swing, some hitters have a big looping swing, some hitters are back foot hitters, some hitters are front foot hitters. There's no one right way to hit a baseball, there's no one right way to lead, you do what best suits your own style. And my style was a collaborative decision-making process, which I just described. The one overarching goal for every leader. And I heard this from a retired Army colonel who now teaches leadership, and he was so right. So simply, be the best version of yourself and enable others who work for you to be the best version of themselves. Last thing I'll say on this point, never ask someone to do a job that you wouldn't do yourself. When I came to the Department of Homeland Security in 2013, our department's morale was at the bottom of the list. And through the Senate confirmation process, I heard over and over and over again, you got to do something to raise morale, you got to do something to raise morale. And I was determined to raise morale if it killed me. And it almost did. Finally, raising morale among a Department of 22 components, of quarter million people is not easy. It's component by component by component. It ranges from the Coast Guard to the Secret Service to FEMA to TSA, immigration components. It's not easy. My last year in office, we finally raised morale significantly, still at the bottom of the list, but we raised morale by a whole three percentage points across, according to an annual survey called PHEVs, federal Employee Viewpoint Survey. One of the things I did, which was very popular in the TSA, I literally went out to BWI Airport and put on a TSA officer’s uniform, the blue uniform with the badge. And I got in the line with the other TSAs and worked the line with them past the bins. And the TSA officers loved it that the boss was willing, the cabinet-level boss was willing to put on the uniform and work alongside them was great. And I think it helped raise morale. It certainly raised morale insofar as their attitude toward their leadership.

Adam: So much there that I love. There’s no one right way to lead. But there are core principles that are universal, and you spoke to the essence of leadership, be the best version of yourself and let others be the best versions of themselves. Leading by example, be prepared to listen, a good leader does more listening than talking. I could not agree with you more. I say on this podcast all the time, great leaders are great listeners. I think I might be challenging Joe DiMaggio, maybe even Cal Ripken at this point. Another point that you made that is so valuable, the importance of getting by in asking people on your team for their perspectives. It reminded me of an earlier interview I did with one of your colleagues, General Martin Dempsey, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who, when I asked him about the topic of decision making, spoke about his time working in the Obama administration. And one of the things he said was exactly what you said, that President Obama went around the room and asked every single person what they thought. It doesn't mean that he was going to act on their perspective, doesn't mean that he was going to agree with them. But he wanted to hear them. He wanted to legitimately hear all voices. And by giving people an opportunity to be heard, they then felt empowered to be their best selves.

Jeh: Exactly. And Marty Dempsey and I sat in a number of the same meetings in the Situation Room in the White House with the President, or at the conference table of the Secretary of Defense, in the Pentagon. So I know exactly what he's talking about.

Adam: Earlier on, in our conversation, you brought something up, which I thought was interesting. When I was asking you about the most important skills that helped fuel your rise within your career, you said, communication. And you said a number of other things, which were variants of communication. What can anyone do to become a better communicator?

Jeh: Well, as a lawyer and an advocate, I have learned the art of simplicity. Plain words, plain language, not long, complicated sentences in the written or spoken word, plain English, please. No acronyms, I hate acronyms, plain English. So very often, when I was given a draft of a public statement for me to issue, I'd spend way too much time just simply turning it into plain English. So plain, straightforward English. And just being honest with people and delivering the message yourself, Adam. I didn't select you for the job, and here's why. That, I think, goes a long way to people who get that kind of straightforward, difficult, but constructive message will still continue to want to work for you. And so just being forthright and candid with people at a public level. When I had to issue a statement that described a threat environment, my statement would try to have three elements to it. One, here's the threat. In very straightforward terms, here's the threat that we face as a nation, and this is what your government is doing about it. Here's the 10-point plan that we have for doing it. And I always tried to make it a 10-point plan. Even if it was only eight things, I invented two more, so it became a 10-point plan. If it was 12 things, I'd do it in one. So it would always be a 10-point plan. Here's my 10-point plan for addressing this threat picture. And then last, here's what you, the public, can do about it. Something like you should continue to go to public events. Enjoy the July 4 holiday season, enjoy Thanksgiving, continue air travel, go on your spring break. But be aware if you see something, say something. So here's the threat. Here's what we're doing about it on your behalf. And here's what you can do. And when you ask people in those terms, I think they respond.

Adam: Clarity, consistency, and empowering the audience that you're communicating with. Exactly. What can anyone do to become a better leader?

Jeh: Learn to make hard choices. And be honest about them. Don't avoid hard decisions. People hate leaders who avoid hard decisions. Don't avoid our decisions. People will respect you if they see you're grappling with the hard decisions. And your honor about the decision and why you made it. That's one basic tenant of good leadership in my judgment. The other is, don't forget to say thank you for a job well done. Don't just criticize a job less than well done. When there's a job well done, I send an email like this today at work. Let people know that they did an exceptional job. Chances are, they worked really hard to get to the end result. And they want to know what you think. So when you take the time to say thank you for a job well done, people always remember that. I know when I was a young associate in my law firm, or when I was a sub-cabinet level official, I always appreciated that, it meant a lot to me. And I've tried to do that, myself. One thing that's a Washington thing, when somebody in a very senior position and wants to communicate gratitude, they write a handwritten note, not a typed note, not an email, a handwritten note, in their own hand, which says to the reader, hey, this person took the time to sit down and write a four-sentence note thanking me for a job well done. You may not even remember what was in the note. But the fact that somebody took the time to take out their personal stationery, write a note, to say thank you, means a lot. I still try to do that myself.

Adam: Important to be generous with your time, important to be generous with your praise, important to be generous in general.

Jeh: Exactly. Even at the end of a commercial air flight, and I've been on some really miserable ones lately, if I thought that the crew, the flight attendants did a great job, I might say that thank you, this was a great flight. Nobody ever gets tired of hearing that.

Adam: And it doesn't cost you anything to be kind.

Jeh: It doesn't cost anything, right? When I was secretary of homeland security it was one of the most difficult, thankless jobs in Washington. But when somebody took the time to say thank you for keeping us safe, I never forgot it.

Adam: What can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Jeh: I'll go back to something I said a little earlier. Be prepared to seriously entertain opportunities that come your way. So often in life, we set our sights on one specific thing in one specific lane. That is very conventional in our own thinking. And then you might be bitterly disappointed if you didn't get it. But then out of left field may come an opportunity that you didn't expect. Don't reject it, take the time to understand it. Take the time to learn more about it. In 1998, when I was offered the job of General Counsel of the Air Force, I didn't know anything about that job. But I was interested in becoming part of the Clinton administration. I was interested in being a presidential appointee. I wanted to go to Washington. So I took the time to study the job. I didn't know anything about lawyering and national security is all new to me. I did it. Glad I did it. In retrospect, that was my pathway into national security. It was almost as if I was meant to choose that path. And then 15 years later, when President Obama asked me to be Secretary of Homeland Security, the first two things that occurred to me were, I've never led a large organization of 250,000. People think we’re lawyers, we think we're pretty good at almost everything. But leadership is not a natural attribute for a lawyer. It's just not, sorry, you lawyers, but it's just not. So the first thing I asked myself was, am I equipped in my experience to lead an organization of 250,000 people? And hey, what do I know about immigration? What do I know about aviation security, other than the fact that I go to an airport once in a while and pass through the line? And I concluded, well, if the president of the United States thinks you can do this job, maybe there's something to it, maybe you can. So you have to be willing to have confidence in yourself to accept opportunities that were unanticipated.

Adam: Secretary Johnson, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors. 

Jeh: My pleasure, great discussion.

Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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