Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Brooks CEO Jim Weber

I recently interviewed Brooks CEO Jim Weber on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is the leader of one of America's leading shoe companies. Jim Weber is the CEO of Brooks, which Jim took from the verge of bankruptcy to more than a billion dollars in annual revenue. Jim is also the author of the book Running With Purpose. Jim, thank you for joining us.

Jim: Oh, it's good to be here. Thanks for having me, Adam.

Adam: Jim, you grew up in Minnesota with five siblings, all really close in age, and a dad who was challenging to say the least. You played a lot of hockey growing up and by the time you were in grade school, you had a dream, a very clear dream, to run a company. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

Jim: Yeah, I think it's true with most people, they could write a book on their family and their childhood. But for me, my mom had six kids in eight years. And I was number four. So I was kind of lost in the bottom half of my siblings. And even as a young kid, three, four, or five years old, I was just watching and observing and absorbing everything around me. And I sort of was independent and a bit lost. And my dad wasn't a happy person. Alcohol was part of that. He just struggled in a lot of areas of life. So there's a lot of stress in the household, and so on, and so forth. And by the time I was in third or fourth grade, I had friends and I'd go to their houses, and there was just a lot less stress. And there was positivity, and conversations really focused on you and each other and all of that. And I have a wonderful family, my mother's a saint, but I just never had that focus or attention, including in school. By the time I got to seventh grade, I just wanted to go somewhere and get good at something. And I wrote a paper in seventh grade on careers. You had to pick five and hockey player got the most ink; I wrote a lot on that. But my skill ran out at some point. And the other thing I wrote about was being president of a company. I had an uncle and I had some other people in my friends network that were running companies. And that just looks really interesting. And they were good at it and positive about it. So I got the bug. And that's why to this day, I consider myself so lucky, Adam, because I just set myself on a mission to run a business one day, and I ended up being in a position to do that. But I think from a childhood standpoint, I believe businesses are an outcome of the journey. They've been in organizations, cultures, but I think people are too. I certainly am. I was hard-wired to go somewhere. I really wanted to hone my skills and be good at something and exceed in something. Business is the path I took, I feel fortunate.

Adam: It really speaks to the power of goal setting, as well as the power of determination. And it's rare that the goals that we set, particularly the professional goals that we set, as little kids we ultimately meet as adults, but you're able to meet that. How did that happen? How did you rise within your career? How did you become a CEO? What can anyone listening to this conversation do to rise within their career to make it to the top like you did?

Jim: Gosh, Adam, first I'm going to start with a lesson it took me to age 40 to learn. So much of my motivation and ambition resulted from fear. I did not want to be a failure. I did not want to be unhappy. I was seeking a path to be successful. And so it wasn't so much I knew what that looked like. And that's exactly what I was setting the goal to be at. I was really running from failure and just fear of not being part of something. And so it took me to age 40 to turn that around and run towards successful outcomes, good relationships and the like. But in navigating that goal, even if I was running from fear, I took every leadership opportunity I could take advantage of in high school, college and beyond. I was president of my senior class, I was president of my fraternity. And then I thought getting an MBA was going to be a critical piece of becoming a general manager. And I learned so much in commercial banking, in the finance side, in the language of business, accounting and just making numbers talk and connecting them to strategies and what was happening in the business. So I think that early banking experience was super helpful to me. But at age 30, I talked my boss at the Coleman Company into letting me run a small division, $15M in revenue. I'd never managed a person, Adam, he took a risk on me. But I so badly wanted to run a business. And Brooks is actually the fourth time I've been CEO. And the other companies were mostly in sporting goods. And this was a division of Coleman, a small one. But I never looked back, I loved it. And so I talked my way and negotiated my way into this first job, to get the wheel to drive a business. And I've learned a lot along the way. But my dream came true at age 30. I felt very fortunate.

Adam: Jim, I want to dive into a few of the things that you shared, starting off with the fact that you were running from fear and then you were able to shift to a different state. Can you describe that shift? And how can anyone get to a place where they're able to work toward their goals, but do so in a healthy way?

Jim: Yeah, I think it's something that I viscerally learned. So how would I describe it? I think on the business side, it's playing offense, versus playing defense. And life, we all have to play both at probably every level of our life. But I think building a business I learned you’ve got to be on the offense: you’ve got to solve for the customer uniquely, you’ve got to build a business model, you’ve got to execute strategy, to succeed on the offense. That's what it takes to add customers to a brand and a business. And so it's different to manage a business than it is to build, create, and grow a business. And I learned that from early days at Pillsbury, and at Brooks, that's the hand we played on the personal side. Gosh, what a journey it's been for me, Adam, I think we all have ambition and aspiration and fear. My first 30-40 years of my life was driven by running from what I didn't want to be. And that was sort of playing defense, playing not to lose. In the first two businesses I ran, they were turnarounds and they were troubled. I've done four repositioning of brands in sort of turnarounds, but the turnaround was a little bit of running from somebody's paddle, locking the doors and literally closing the business. And so we had success in each one of those. But it wasn't the same as looking towards a vision, looking down the road, at the customer and really being creative in solving to actually grow and build a business. So I think turnarounds were really fun but they're not the same as building a brand. And so it's a bit of that glass half empty glass half full. When you're running from fear, it's a glass half empty environment you are living in. And in a way turnarounds have some of that in them. But when you’re glass half full, you're living in the moment and moving towards opportunity. And the big difference there for me, Adam, was your relationships with people. I lifted my head up for my family and all the people I work with. And it was just such a more positive mode to be in, when you were present for where the business was today, where people in relationships were today. And you could work on them and move forward with other people. And that's the human side of it. A light bulb that went on for me in that midlife mode as a leader and also as a person in life that relationships are where real happiness and joy comes from. I've found I want to ring the bell and when I want to hit our goals, I want to hit a market share. I want to hit growth goals. I want to hit my personal goals. But if that's all you're focused on, you miss the joy of the relationships and the journey to get there. That's what I've learned. You really should focus on being able to enjoy the journey because finish lines are wonderful, but they're fleeting. And there's always another one. Business isn't a marathon man. It's an ultra, and so is life hopefully. So I think those are all things that I've learned over time. But man for the first few decades of my being and career, I was just focused on the goals and playing not to lose in a way. I don't know if that makes sense but that's been my journey.

Adam: It makes perfect sense. It ultimately comes down to setting the right priorities, being present, and remembering that it's all about people, whether it's in business or whether it's in life. It ultimately comes down to relationships. That's the central fabric.

Jim: It really is Adam, that's the bullseye. And it took me again till age 40 to learn that. We were in a strategy offsite/ We're really good at strategy. I'm wired that way. I thought the CEO’s job was to see the marketplace well and put a strategy to get their business model, all the plans and then obviously hit your numbers and meet your goals. And we're in a strategy off-site once. And once you get to scale, we got through two days of that and we felt really good about it. And then we had a person in helping us navigate. And he said, “Now you have to work on people. You have to spend a whole day on people, and mapping out in the next three years, how you're going to build capacity, capability and bring people together to deliver on those strategies because it's all about execution.” An early person in my career said, “Jim, vision is hallucination without execution. It's great, but if you don't execute it, you're hallucinating.” I think that realization is what brings people right into the center of everything. We're successful if we can execute well as a team. And that's the driver of our success and took me a while to figure that out.

Adam: What do you look for in the people who you surround yourself with, whether it's people you hire, whether it's people who you try to surround yourself with in an advisory capacity, whether it's people who you hope that your hiring managers hire? What are those qualities?

Jim: I think every organization has a culture, whether you're definitive about what it is and how you want to nurture it or not. Certainly, Brooks does. And we've learned over time, the strengths of this culture that we want to really reinforce, and mirror and model and all of those things. And so at Brooks, business is a team sport. I talked about execution. I have this analogy of a wall of bricks. And in business, there's 1000 bricks, and you have to move all forward. As time goes on over the planning horizon, seasonal, year after year after year, you have to move the ball forward. And sometimes some fall behind and you have to push those forward, but teams win. And so for us, what we've learned is that we want to hire people that bring their best selves, bring their strengths, bring their superpowers, and can influence our culture and our strategy. But they're going to be part of a team. And so if there's pretentiousness there or selfishness, and it's all about them, they might have a stint here for a while, but this company, this team will actually reject them. Because teams are built on trust and respect. And if you're a complete in-your-own-mind person in the way you work, people figure that out. You're just not engaging to your left and to your right and cross the team. So I think that's the common denominator Brooks. We know to succeed in our category, we compete with some of the best brands in the world and it's an incredibly competitive category. So we know that's only going to happen with great talent, and super talented people that we can not only attract, but retain. So we work really hard to bring a culture that creates gravitational pull for good people. But the common denominator is that they are capable of being a part of a team, because we're trying to bring this brand to market globally across 1000s of retailers in the complexity of the running marketplace, as Brooks uniquely and distinctively everywhere in the world. So we got to be one team. And I think that's the difference at Brooks is that we're definitely looking for fantastic talent but that wants to be part of a team as we play this strategy out.

Adam: There's so much I could dive into here and there's so much I want to dive into here. And we will, but something that I don't want to leave behind. You mentioned that there was this seminal experience in your career. Today you lead a billion dollar business, but that was only made possible because you were able to persuade your boss to give you the opportunity to lead a $15 million business. How were you able to do that? And what were the key lessons that you learned from it?

Jim: I think what I believed then and now is that you really have to do your homework and understand the game that you're playing and the business it’s in and what it's all about. I felt that way. To be confident in public speaking, as I had all the nervousness that many of us have early in my career, the only way I fought it was I have to know exactly what I'm talking about and the audience has got to learn something from me. I hope the other way around becomes true as well but I have to do my homework. So in each one of those situations, I made a pitch. Every job I've gotten as a CEO, I said, “Here's what I see in terms of the business. Here's the work that needs to be done.” Sometimes I got 60% of it right, sometimes more, but I had a plan. I knew what I would do. And sometimes I got surprised and especially early on but by the time I got to Brooks, I wrote on my wall “The secret to success is consistency of purpose,” because I wanted to create a strategy and play through it to actually shift from playing defense and just doing the turnaround. I wanted to get through the turnaround and then go after growth in running because I could see the opportunity. I'd had enough experience. So I had a plan. And I was pretty confident, sometimes overly confident. But I had enthusiasm and passion for leadership. I think that's the other thing. These jobs are hard, Adam. And what I coach a lot of young leaders on is that I hope you're coming into this role as a vice president or as a president not just because you had ambition around the promotion and the title or the opportunity or what have you, but because ultimately enjoy leading, you enjoy leading business, you enjoy leading a team, you enjoy leading enterprise. Because if you don't, it's – these are hard jobs. So I hope that you have a curiosity and lifelong learning element that's so required in leadership, I think, as you come into these things. So a lot of people look at these positions, and they're compelling for a lot of reasons. But when you look at what the job really is, hopefully you enjoy the essence of that. I certainly do. And so be careful of what you ask for, Adam, because sometimes you may not actually enjoy it. And I think that's the homework people should do, too. I think that's the energy and passion that I bring, that's genuine. These are hard jobs, but they're also fun and challenging and engaging, and all of that. So that would be my advice is take a hard look at what the job really is. It's not the title. It's the puzzles you have to solve. It's the people and the partners.

Adam: What I'm hearing is a few different things. Have a plan, prepare. One of my favorite quotes from John Wooden, “Failing to prepare is preparing to fail.” All leaders need to have vision. It doesn't need to be their vision, but they need to have vision. Could be someone else's vision, but they need to understand what successful vision is all about. And need to be able to communicate that vision, articulate that vision, and ultimately, inspire others to act along with them in making that vision a reality. The second thing you said, self confidence, believe in yourself. If you don't believe in yourself, who's gonna believe in you? And the last thing, which stood out: passion, passion for leadership, passion, period, enthusiasm. If you don't want it, someone else is going to want it more, and that person is going to get it. So to your point, ask yourself, do I really want this and if I do, go for it, go as hard as you can. But make sure that it's something that you actually really want because, as you said, it might not be the right fit for you. And if it is, go after it. Passion, preparation, self confidence, great recipe for success.

Jim: Yeah, I think you captured two things there that are so timeless in leadership, Adam. You have to pull realism in and attach it to optimism. People want to be part of a success. And when you're in tough situations, you can't not be attuned to the reality of the situation you're in. But you have to bring optimism and for me that came from a plan. The other thing I would add, Adam, is I took risks. Many of these businesses were not healthy at all. And they looked risky. But I was a young manager, a first-time manager, so I took some risk there. And we had success with everyone but they weren't in the center of the business. Early in my career at Pillsbury, I worked for some of the best people in that company. For Jerry Levin on the corporate side and the best marketing people were in the Doughboy business at Pillsbury. So I had a marketing job there. I learned from the best marketers in that company but when I first took a job, it was a backwater business. I took a risk. I didn't go into the center of the brand strength of these companies. I took a risk on something that was kind of broken. I love that. I love to build things. I love to fix things. But the first opportunity you have may not be the one that everybody wants. And that was certainly the case for me

Adam: And that was certainly the case when you took over Brooks. The company was in disarray. You became the company's fourth CEO in two years. Brooks was sitting on more than $30 million in debt. There was literally an office pool among employees, betting on how long you would last in the job. And those same employees didn't realize that the company was on the verge of bankruptcy. Today, Brooks is a billion-dollar business, a market leader in the field of running shoes. How did you turn Brooks around? And what are the best lessons that you learned that any leader can apply to their business?

Jim: Gosh, Adam. That's why I wrote the book. I think Brooks is such a great story. I'm super proud to be a part of this team, super proud to be a part of the brand that we build. And we're still in the middle of this race. There's so much opportunity. And it's really the reason that I wanted to tell the story and Warren Buffett encouraged me to tell the story, because it's such a good one. It's a David and Goliath story of a small brand, finding a niche and building a moat around our strengths. It's a challenger brand story where we're so small in this industry, that we found a niche and we're trying to be the best at it. We're not looking to our right or to our left, we're just trying to be great at gear for runners from head to toe and be their first choice. That's now 23 years of our mission. And we're still focused on it, because the market is so wonderful. So I think I'm just such a believer in focus. And it came out of running from fear in my life, I felt I had to choose one thing to be good at. So for Brooks, that sort of affected me, but we're in this huge athletic footwear industry, the outdoor activity industry, fitness, you put all those three together, that's where running sits. It's a huge category, and it's global. So we're continuing to focus to solve for the customer in a unique way, and build a brand around the essence of what Brooks is. So gosh, every time we go annually and start our strategy work, we almost always start with the point that probably our biggest strength is our focus. And so I'm just a big believer in that. Because there's so many choices that customers have today. Every category is so competitive. The first decision every business gets to make is what customer you're focused on. And that's your decision. And it's really powerful if you have clarity on which customers you're trying to really win with. And that's the thing that's been from the day I got to Brooks, that is the thread that has never changed. The market’s evolved, the runners change, we've had to move and shift to stay with this lifestyle, this sport, this customer as we've gone through, but the common thread has been that focus. And we look ahead 10 years, Adam, and we think it's a $4 billion idea really fully executing our strategy. And so we're still not looking left or right. We're focused on building a brand in this space.

Adam: You mentioned Warren Buffett. For the listeners who may not be aware, Brooks is a subsidiary of Berkshire Hathaway. And you spent a lot of time with Warren Buffett, professionally, personally, what are the best lessons that you've learned from your time with Warren Buffett?

Jim: Oh, my gosh, Adam, it really came home to me early on, because I thought, this guy is seeing so many businesses, and he's gonna have all the answers to all these questions. I remember when the dollar was getting strong so currencies were moving again and that hurts our margins in Europe and gosh, currency fluctuation, Warren Buffett is going to know exactly what to do on this. And so I called him and I explained it, “Should we be hedging? Should we look at pricing in different ways?” And he said, “Jim, here's what I think. I have no idea where currency is going and so I don't spend any time thinking about it. If this trend continues, you're going to make less money in Europe that may be permanent. If I were you, I'd focus on your customer.” And it's simple but gosh, Adam, it's that long-term sensible view on things where you play through some of this noise that happens day to day, week to week, year to year and sort of that three-year horizon. We've been able to play through these three-year horizons. So that is so powerful. And I've been in public companies and private equity-backed companies and the like, and it's easy to say we're long-term focused. But the truth really comes through when you hit difficult markets, and a lot of things you don't control, say COVID and supply chain disruptions where you have to navigate through those, but not lose the script on really how you make money, on really how you grow profitably. And I think that's what I've learned from Warren Buffett. It's come through and we've had to play through some troughs and some challenging times. And they've been supporting us to solve those puzzles and work through it, and we've come out stronger from everyone. So it's just been a huge advantage for us even to build a brand. We're a little bit different than the average Berkshire company, because we feel like we're still in the brand-building mode and we're working hard to bring new customers in and be profitable and get great returns on capital while we do that. But I think they’re deferential, the Berkshire culture, they have such a diversity of businesses, they're all different, that they're very deferential, I think, to the leadership teams that are trying to solve the puzzle in their category in their industry. And it's just so unique. I've never experienced anything else quite like Berkshire Hathaway in my business career.

Adam: Among the lessons you shared in discussing how you were able to turn around Brooks, and in discussing what you've been able to take away from your time spent with Warren Buffett, the importance of focus: focus on one market, focus on one group of customers, focus on customers, focus on what you can control, rather than on what you can't control, ignore the noise, block out whatever's going on around you that is distracting you and zone in on what matters. What is that one thing that matters most? And in the case of every single business, it's your customer.

Jim: Yeah, that's a truth, Adam, that I've really come to, especially over the last 10 years. There are some platforms out there that maybe approach monopolies. And they're just so dominant with scale and network effects and all of that, most businesses don't have those. And what I've come to conclude that there's so much capital out there funding, new ideas, new brands, new disruptors, that if you're not obsessed on your customer, and experimenting and innovating, and leading in terms of bringing them value, whether it's products or service, whatever it is, then you're at risk, because somebody else is. So I don't know how else you succeed today, again, unless you have some sort of monopoly platform. That doesn't exist in our industry, so you’ve got to earn it. I don't think there's another way to be successful, at least in the consumer business.

Adam: Something else that you shared, the importance of culture. You mentioned that the culture at Brooks has been a differentiator. You mentioned that the culture at Berkshire is unique and special. How can leaders build winning organizational cultures?

Jim: Yeah, I think it's a great question. And for me, it was a journey, because when you're small, the culture is really so much a reflection of the key leadership. Certainly a CEO, but the key leadership team affects culture, right? The reality every day for a given employee is the culture today, is how they're feeling today. And that's affected by behaviors, and relationships, and all of that. And of course, the culture, ultimately, is going to become the brand. I don't think you can hide it from customers. I think if you're all about, for example, profitability, your customers are going to figure that out over time. So it's super relevant to your brand. But it's super relevant to how you execute your business, because it's values, but it's really behaviors, and hopefully, the behaviors of everyone at your best and any given day, more or less reflect the values you talk about. So what we've learned is that scaling culture is super hard. It's a lot of work. But the benefits of it are tremendous, because it's what drives execution. One of the things is working from an area of fear, Adam. I try not to use this analogy in public but here's the truth, there's a lot of ways to fail in business. You have to execute at a strong level in everything to succeed and hit your goals, and that's that wall of bricks that I talked about, you got to move more forward. So there's just lots of ways to stumble and not execute well enough for the customer or  your business to hit your goals. And so that's where culture comes in. And we're really trying to wire into that. And it's hard to scale it. I get often asked the question of describe your culture, but more importantly, describe how you nurture and scale it. And it's just a lot of hard work in communication, and training and engagement. And bringing managers and leadership. We have a program called Connect, we train 160 managers on it. We're on the third cohort of it. I've been through it along with the first year, first time people manager of a new employee, and we put everybody through it, and it's how we lead and treat each other as people. So yeah, it's really important, I think, and if you're looking for long term success, you can drive with great products and a few superstar employees, you could probably drive some success with product, but to sustain that season in season out, culture is how that's done in my view.

Adam: Jim, something that you shared right off the bat when you were talking about culture that stood out to me. I'm going to paraphrase but you said that your culture and your brand are intertwined. And clearly, so much of your time, your energy, your focus is spent on the Brooks brand. You've helped take Brooks from what was a brand that didn't have a very clear identity to a brand that is regarded as, hey, if I'm a runner, I need Brooks. What are your best tips on the topic of branding?

Jim: Gosh, you got to solve for the customer. And every category is different. So here's what's unique about running in apparel and footwear. So our category, athletic apparel and footwear, is huge. And most of it in our broader industry never goes for a run, often doesn't even go for a walk, doesn't get on the court, doesn't play tennis. These are casual shoes, family footwear shoes, lifestyle shoes, sometimes fashion shoes. And that's a wonderful thing for our industry. It's a huge category. But when we said we're going to first and foremost focus on the runner, you have to build trust. They’re sort of head and heart, right? You start with the head: this shoe’s got to work for me because at mile 24 of my first marathon or my 10th marathon, if your shoes are not working for you, there's a mental test at the end of every marathon. And the physical challenge. And the mental challenges are huge. So the shoe is absolutely a piece of gear. And that's why I've often measured our brand strength on shoe counts at marathons. And we want to be in the top two or three. And in most marathons, we’re the number one or two shoe on course, including New York at a shoe count last year and the Houston Marathon in the half as well. So that rational brain thing of “This product is going to work, fit, feel and ride. Even if I don't run 10 miles or 20 miles, I know this is a good shoe because it's built to do that.” So that rational trust part is where it all begins. But then there's the emotional part and whether it fits your values, or it's the uniform for an apparel that reflects who you are as an active person, as a runner, as someone that's investing in themselves from a health and wellness standpoint. That's what running and walking and hiking and trail is, it's really an investment in yourself. So that's the brand positioning Brooks really pioneered that. When it was all about epic athletic achievement, 23 years ago, we balanced it out and said “The sport is the soul of it, but running is so much more than that. So much more, it's an investment in yourself.” And so that's where our culture has to sync with that. So first, we have to build the best gear in the world. We have to build gear that is going to serve you well for you and your needs as a runner at 25 miles. And we want to hopefully inspire you and reflect how you feel after a run and what being active brings to you in your life which is ultimately happiness. It is head and heart. There's a rational aspect to executing at a cultural level to what the brand's promises. And then there's the ‘how we do things’ and what we reinforce and inspire, hopefully, and cheer on the investment in yourself and how it makes you feel. So head and heart. I think you got to solve for both.

Adam: Jim, what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Jim: Wow, the people that I have always been most impressed with, especially when you get to know them and it's timeless, they're curious. And they're always learning. And it's so true, right? And if everything, you're going to be a certain kind of leader and a certain kind of a teammate, because you're going to operate on a regular basis as if you know everything, just that fundamental curiosity. And being in the moment to learn and listen, I think is essential. And when I was first meeting Warren Buffett, I was stunned at how much reading he does, of course, it's phenomenal. But I thought in that early conversation I had with him, we ended up spending two or three hours. I first thought oh, I can't wait, I'm gonna pick his brain and empty it and learn as much as I can. I ended up doing most of the talking because I want him to get excited about Brooks, but his curiosity and enthusiasm for learning is stunning to this day, even as he's well on in his career and age. So I think that's it. I think being curious and learning and engaging with people to do so. That's a key skill set.

Adam: Jim, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Jim: I enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for having me, Adam.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally-recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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