Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Quinn Emanuel Founder John Quinn

I recently interviewed Quinn Emanuel Founder John Quinn on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is the founder of one of America's most successful law firms. John Quinn is the founder and chairman of Quinn Emanuel, the largest law firm in the world focused on business litigation and arbitration with more than $2 billion in revenue last year and with a reputation as the number one most feared law firm in the world of litigation. John also hosts the legal podcast, Law Disrupted. John, thank you for joining us.

John: Thank you, Adam. It's such a pleasure to be on your podcast.

Adam: Pleasure is mine. You grew up in bountiful Utah. What a great name for a city.

John: You actually moved there when I was 12 years old. So actually, before I was 12, I was in Greenwich, Connecticut. Now, that was long before Greenwich, Connecticut was as it is today, the hedge fund capital in the world. Back then, I went to school with kids where Italian was spoken in the home. It wasn't a rich guy. I mean, there was a rich area of Greenwich, but that's certainly not where I lived. but had great public schools, and a great place to grow up. 

And then when I was 12 years old, my family moved from Greenwich, Connecticut to Bountiful, Utah, which was a rural, seemed to me probably accurately, Podunk community. So, I went from one of the best public school systems in the U.S. to one that was certainly not in the upper percentile, with radically different social norms. And at that age, you're pretty impressionable. So that was a tough move. I'm not sure I've ever gotten over that move, to tell you the truth, Adam.

Adam: Taking listeners back to that time and place, what were some of the key lessons that you learned that shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

John: I think, to be honest, I think I was born competitive. I think I came out of the womb competitive. I'm not sure anybody ever taught me that, but I was always competitive. Like, you know how these grade schools have these field days where there are races and competitions, things like that, where you go out and it's supposed to be fun. When I was in kindergarten, they had one of those field days and they had a skipping race. I trained for that for two weeks. I went out and skipped my ass off. Now, was that a lesson learned? Did anybody teach me that? I don't think so. I think I was just always like that. Probably a personality defect, but I had to win.

Adam: I love it. As someone who leads a business with so many different types of people, how do you manage different personalities who, in some cases, have that natural predisposition, that drive, that will, that fire, and how do you deal with those who don't?

John: That's a damn good question. Because we're a firm of trial lawyers. We have over 1,000 litigators and trial lawyers who by definition are not shrinking violets or bashful people. They're not people who you really manage in any conventional sense. They're very independent-thinking people who have big egos. They have to. You can't survive in our world. if you don't have thick skin and a big ego and have self-confidence and pretty much think you know what you need to do. 

So, you have to recognize that the best thing I can do a lot of times is just make sure that people have the support they need to accomplish what they want to do. Try to help them. Sometimes, people, their work slows down. Try to help them find additional work. Try to be, you know, you have to be reflective, I think, about how you are perceived and modulate your approach with different people. I've come to learn not everybody loves me equally. 

In fact, there's some people who don't love me at all. I hope I'm not despised by very many. But yeah, a certain amount of self-awareness. You get feedback from the people you're around. So, if you're all self-aware, you learn over time something about yourself. You see a reflection of yourself in other people. And that continues to this day, to be honest.

Adam: It's not the job of a leader to be loved. If you want to be loved, probably a lot of other things you can do in life instead of being a leader, maybe go into acting. But if you want to be a leader, your job is to be effective. Your job is to help the people you're leading become their best selves, become as good as they can be, and drive your team to be as effective as your team can be. That's what your job is, not to win a popularity contest.

John: Well, I think that's true. I mean, look, I say love, but love is a big word that covers a lot of different feelings and emotions. I mean, I have people tell me from time to time, I love you, John. And I don't think that they mean anything other than they appreciate me in some significant way. I don't think they love me the way family members love each other. But yes, I agree in general with what you said. I like how you put it. Everybody to be the best that they can be. Maximize their potential. Create an environment and give them the feedback that enables them to do that. 

And that's a big enough job in itself. Forget being loved. It's helping people to identify the objective and help them accomplish it. Find out what their strengths are and build their effort around those strengths. Make the most out of what they can do. Not everybody has the same set of talents. Like in our firm, like any professional services firm, we have to be concerned with what work we're going to do tomorrow and the next day and the next day and the week after that. So, keeping people busy, and business generation is important. And there's a role for everybody in that. 

But it's not the same for everybody. Not everybody is going to be the person who can go to some social event, meet half the people in the room and identify the best prospect and then get hired the next day when they have a problem. Not everybody thrives in that kind of environment, but different people can do different things in terms of business development. 

Some can speak or write, or some people need to have the table set for them, the situation set up so they can meet people and they'll be able to thrive in a small environment like that. So, it's different strokes for different folks. I mentioned business development. That's an important part, obviously, but the same could be true for other aspects of practice. and what we do. There are some people who are great with a jury. There are other people who are great with the appellate court. They're different skill sets.

Adam: Business development is a big topic and you've had an incredible track record of being able to draw in the most successful companies to come and become clients of your firm. How? What are the keys to bringing in business, to selling? What advice do you have?

John: Well, I think time commitment, it depends on who you are and what your strengths are. But generally, I think it does require you to be doing it constantly. A certain amount of time was 10 or 15% or 20% of your time every day on average should be some aspect of business development. 

So, it's consistency of effort. is a key part of it. Knowing yourself and what your strengths are and being able to be yourself, knowing what is it that you have to offer. Like in our world, we're litigators. I tell our lawyers; you need to know what is your expertise. What is it that you know that you can do better than just about anybody? Or there are very few people who are as good as you. You need to know what are your strengths so that you're in a position to credibly talk about that and pitch that. You need to create opportunities where you have exposure. This is being consistent in your effort, whether it's 10 15, or 20% of your time. You need to create opportunities where you're being exposed to people all the time and creating opportunities for yourself. It's not a great business development strategy to sit at your desk and wait for the phone to ring. 

That worked for some people once they had some notoriety. But for most people, it's effort. It's getting out there and getting in front of people. Knowing who you are, knowing the strengths, not only of your own personal strengths but of your firm, your company, whoever you work for, what is it that the firm or the company has to offer the world, knowing your services and your products, what sets you apart, being able to talk fluently about that. And it's important to have an area of expertise that you can offer the world and know what that is.

Adam: How do you become an expert?

John: Well, I think you need to become an expert and you need to stay an expert. So, it's a process and it requires continual updating. It really begins in our profession. It begins with developing experience. You find something that you like. And by the way, if you like something, the chances are better that you're going to become good at it over time than if you're doing something that you don't like. 

So, find something you find gratifying that you like letting people know in your firm or wherever you are. that, hey, I'm interested in this. If you see cases like this, I would like to be involved. If you hear about it, volunteer. Don't wait for somebody to tap you on the shoulder. Look out for those opportunities so that you get that experience. All right? So, you learn and you become an expert. from experience, looking for mentors, finding people who practice in that area, who do what you want to do, seeing what they do, being able to spend time with them, learning from that, staying up to date, and staying current on developments in the law. We have developments all the time. 

In any practice area, whether it's securities or employment or antitrust competition, there are legal developments all the time. Staying on top of that, that's an ongoing, continuing effort. and looking for opportunities to maybe write something that gets published, speaking on it, writing notes and sending them to a client note on the subject that you send to clients or people you know or prospects, building a mailing list, basically getting the word out that you are really interested in this area and you're knowledgeable about it. So, it's a process. But it's not static. It's not like you become an expert and it's over then. In our field, at least, in the law, expertise is something that you have to continue to hone and sharpen and stay on top of developments.

Adam: And I think that that's applicable in any field. The learning process never ends. The journey never ends. The most successful people no matter what it is that they're pursuing, are continually learning, growing, getting better, and trying to find that extra edge every day.

John: Yes, that's exactly true and I'm sure it's true in every field.

Adam: something else you shared which is critical to success in what you do, being able to communicate effectively in front of a jury. What advice do you have for anyone listening on the topics of communication, and persuasion, what tactics and strategies do you use Do you advise the other attorneys at your firm to deploy when trying to win over a jury? And what can anyone listening to this conversation do to more effectively persuade and influence those around them?

John: Well, speaking to a jury is a kind of public speaking, and there are studies that show that public speaking is, for a lot of people, one of the most terrifying things that they can face. Most people are not comfortable speaking to audiences, or speaking in public, whether it's to what could be a jury or any group. Again, I think experience matters a lot. You develop a comfort level by doing it and feeling like it went successfully, and that you were able to present your points. Look, you want to get to a point where you are comfortable, you're not nervous. 

The key really here, I think, is being comfortable in your own skin, being comfortable being yourself. You're never going to be persuasive as an advocate or otherwise, I don't think, unless you're a really good actor, unless you're being yourself, genuinely being yourself. I mean, there's different things. When I was younger, I used to get, frankly, I mean, it wasn't natural. So, I would actually get speaking coaches. I was facing trial early on. In my first jury trial, my second, my third, I got a speaking coach to work with me on my opening statement. I know there are things like Toastmasters where people practice public speaking. There are acting classes sometimes that lawyers take to try to learn about how to be comfortable, and how to project. It's all about really not acting, but learning how to express yourself in the best possible way, including body language and facial expressions and the words you use and how you use them. 

So, I mean, whatever avenue that gets you to the point where you're comfortable being yourself, I think is a profitable path to pursue. Because I think that the key to being persuasive is being able to be yourself, giving people a sense that you are being genuine. that you are sincere, that you mean what you're saying. You're not going to persuade anybody of anything if they think this person doesn't really believe what they're saying. So it's a sense of yourself that you convey, that your own sincerity and your belief is so important.

Adam: And the key theme there, authenticity, essential to effective communication, essential to effective leadership.

John: Yeah, and being uncomfortable, the fear of public speaking can get in the way of being authentic. You get in the way of being yourself. You need to conquer that. And whether it's practice can give you comfort, and experience over time, but you need those anxiety barriers to dissipate because they can get in the way of you being yourself.

Adam: Most cases that come to you don't make it to a jury. You're instead trying to cut deals and negotiate with the other side. What are your best tips on the topics of negotiations and deal-making?

John: Well, every negotiation is different. Certainly, you need to understand, do I have the high ground here or do I have a tough case? What leverage do I have? Who is my opponent? What do I know about them? Understanding the personality is very, very important. And understanding where you want to end up and what's the goal is really important. That's dangerous going into a negotiation if you don't really know where you want to end up because that's where oftentimes you end up slicing the salami and slicing the salami and slicing the salami and before you know it, you don't have a lot left. 

So, you really got to sort of in your mind and in our line of work with a client, really understand what the client wants and what the goal is. And then it really comes down to understanding who's your counterparty, who you're dealing with, what's your sense of them, what do they like, both in our case, the lawyer and the opposing party, the opposing client, as it were. And it's horses for courses. I mean, different approaches are different circumstances, but I always believe they start out by aiming high. My position is going to be a stretch position. I want the other side to make the first big move. I want to convey, that credibility is key in the negotiation. The other side has to believe that you mean what you say, and there's not going to be a deal if they don't come close to what you're asking for. 

So, I believe in aiming high and trying to stay there until I can get the other side to make a significant move without blowing it up. Sometimes you have to walk away. And oftentimes, if you're talking about negotiating a settlement of a lawsuit, the alternative is going to be trying the case. So, the other side has to credibly believe that you are prepared to try the case. You're prepared. You've done your work. 

The way to get the best settlement of a lawsuit is to surprise, surprise, prepare for trial and credibly convey to the other side that, hey, if this doesn't settle, we'll try the case. This case is only settled when your opposing party believes that the offer on the table is better than what's behind door number two, i.e. going to trial against you. So, credibility is key in negotiations. I also believe you shouldn't make it personal. That's not productive. You don't want to piss people off. That's not productive. You should be respectful. After all, you're trying to bring people together to accomplish something together. So those are kind of some of the elements of my approach to negotiations.

Adam: Your law firm has the distinction of being the most feared law firm.

John: Clients don't come to us looking for shrinking violets or wallflowers. They're looking for somebody to stand between them and trouble. They're looking for someone to speak for them, advocate for them, and accomplish a result in an adversarial situation. And that's only going to happen if the other side thinks that these guys know what they're doing, I am at risk here. My clients are at risk here because if there's a way for these guys, I'm talking about our firm now. If there's a way for these guys to win that case, they will find it. They are the kind of people who will find it and they will know how to execute it. they will get a great result in the courtroom. So, fear in that sense, not a personal fear, but a fear of losing, a fear of that they're at risk, their case, their economics, whatever it is, it's at risk because we will do our job and we're good at it.

Adam: And from what I'm hearing from you, the key to instilling that fear into whoever it is that you're negotiating with is coming in thoroughly prepared, having an alternative that the other side is going to be fearful of. So, in your case, they're not going to want to go to trial against you. So that's going to incentivize them to come to the table to negotiate. being fearful of the fact that these people are really, really good at what they do and I need to bring my best to the table in order to compete with them.

John: Yeah. It's definitely not a sense of personal intimidation or fear in any other sense on a personal level. It's fear that they will lose whatever is at stake in the case because we know how to win. I'm not a believer that there are many geniuses out there, certainly not in the law profession. Genius is in the sense that you can make it easy or that there are shortcuts or that you don't have to put a lot of time in because we've got some great idea that'll cut through all that. My experience is that practicing law at the highest level, and I'm sure this is true for other professions, is labor intensive. 

It's a lot of hard work. It's nose to the grindstone. So, it's not enough to be competitive. You also have to have the energy and the ambition in your gut to spend the time and do whatever it takes, which in my case often means going to bed and I can't shut down my mind because I'm continuing to think about the client's problem. I'm obsessive a bit. So, you got to really want it. That means that you have to really put in the time and you have to have commitment to achieving your goal.

Adam: I love it. There are lots of law firms in America. You've been able to build one of the largest and most successful. How?

John: Well, it's a lot of things, but look, I mean, law firms, we're enterprises that don't really have any hard assets. I mean, look, we have some, real estate leases, we have some leases on some computers, but that's basically it. The only assets we have are the talent and ingenuity and the judgment of the lawyers in our firm. I mean, the sine qua non is the quality of the people that you work with. We've made good decisions about the lawyers that join our firm. Number one, we have the talent. 

Number two, we have a commitment to win. As I've described, we've inculcated that it's part of the culture of the firm. I would say number three, we're not bashful. We don't hide our light under a bushel and we enjoy great success in our world. And we make sure that people know it, that we're available, and that we're here to help. And then I think the model of our practice, which is extremely unusual, most large law firms are so-called full-service firms, where they'll have a deal department, and they'll have a tax department, they'll have a litigation department, and they have some trust in the states and other things, whereas we only do one thing, and that's disputes work, litigation work, arbitration work, investigation work. 

So, we are people who navigate and resolve legal risks and legal claims, and it turns out that's a very broad area. As I mentioned, everything from employment work to securities, to competition, to intellectual property work, all those different things come under the discipline, the large umbrella of disputes work. But I think that focus has been very valuable to us because we know our message to the business and legal community is a pretty simple one. We're known for this one thing that we do. And so, it's a very simple message.

Adam: Clarity of focus, clarity not only internally, everyone knows this is who we are, this is what we do, but externally. This is our core area of expertise and we're the best at it and being able to back it up. You also brought up your culture, which is certainly unique in the world that you're in. What have been the keys to creating such a successful culture and what advice do you have for leaders on how to build winning organizational cultures?

John: Well, whatever your culture is, whatever you want your culture to be, you can't just be talking the talk. You have to walk it. It has to be something that people see practiced every day, day in, day out with some discipline. But I do think there's a role for talking to bringing it up, reminding people, talking about it, and keeping it front of mind. This is the kind of behavior. 

This is what we're here for. This is what we encourage. Calling out examples of it, celebrating achievements. In our case, we'll try a case or get a great settlement and that's a victory. And so, we'll send around emails about that. We'll talk about it. We'll congratulate people. And we give out at our firm, we give out collegiality awards where people have demonstrated the kind of collegial behavior that we want to encourage. So, I think you have to actually be doing it, but you have to remind people all the time. You have to bring it up.

Adam: What do you look for in the people who you hire and what are your best tips on the topic of hiring?

John: We recruited the very top law schools and tried to get the top people, but not just people who are at the top of the class, but people who are going to be, from a personality standpoint, are going to be good fits and will be good with clients. We don't want people who have sharp elbows. We want people who share the values we do, who understand some of the things I've talked about, about the importance and necessity of hard work, and who are committed to becoming winners. 

Now, it's hard when you're interviewing on a law school campus. We get to spend some time with people often. They come to work with us over the summer, so we get to have some familiarity. But it's hard to make all those judgments in an employment interview. But the people who succeed and stay with us, the people who are on board for the kinds of commitments that I'm talking about.

Adam: You lead one of the largest companies in your industry. What do you believe are the key characteristics of a great leader and what can anyone do to become a better leader?

John: I think there are different leadership styles, but I think you have to be visible. I think people have to see you living the values that you talk about. I think you have to be in the nitty gritty and people have to see you as someone who's there to help them, to support them. I mean, I look at myself as somebody I hope that people see that they can call on me to help them be better at what they do. I serve them. I don't just serve myself. I contribute to their success as well as my own success. So, I think those are some of the qualities.

Adam: Be visible. Be present. So much of success is just being there. Live your values. As you said on the topic of persuasion, you're never going to be successful in winning people over whether you're trying to win over a jury or whether you're trying to win over a customer. if you're not authentic, if you don't actually believe what you say. It might work once, it might work twice, but it's not a sustainable approach. You need to believe what you're selling. You need to live your values. Getting in the weeds, and having genuine expertise in what you do is grounded in knowing your stuff. 

The last thing you said, which has been a key theme, is servant leadership. We kicked off the conversation around, you don't necessarily need to be loved to be a great leader, but you mentioned that there are people who come up to you and tell you that they love you. They love you because you're serving them, you're helping them, and you're executing your responsibility as a leader, which is helping them become better at what they do. And people who recognize that, appreciate that, respond to that. John, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of 30-Minute Mentors.

John: Adam, thank you so much for having me on your podcast. Thank you very much, Adam.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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