Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: General Joseph Votel

I recently interviewed Joseph Votel on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a retired four-star general who led the coalition that liberated Iraq and Syria from ISIS. Over the course of almost four decades, General Joseph Votel commanded Special Operations and conventional military forces at every level. General Votel oversaw all Special Operations Forces as commander of the United States Special Operations Command and oversaw the war on terror as Commander of the United States Central Command. General Votel, thank you for joining us.

General Votel: It's great to be with you, Adam. Thanks for the invitation.

Adam: You've led teams on and off the battlefield all over the world. But you grew up in Minnesota, which is where you live today. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What compelled you to pursue a career in the military and what were the key experiences and lessons that shaped the trajectory of your success?

General Votel: That's a great place to start. So I grew up in a big, big Midwestern family here right in St. Paul, Minnesota. And when I was about 10 years old, my oldest brother was out in Baltimore. We went to visit him and one of the things he did while we were there, as he took us out, took my mom and dad and my sisters and I out to the Naval Academy and kind of showed us around. And as a kid from St. Paul, I just never seen anything like that. And I was just so impressed with what that was. And I remember turning to my dad and saying, “Hey, this is where I want to go to school”. I didn't know that much about the military. And, you know, as I kind of continued through grade school, in high school, I just kind of kept that dream alive. I ended up going to West Point, just because that was the service academy that I could get into and it all worked out. It was a good choice. So you know, I didn't have a deep military background in my family. I certainly have uncles and brothers and, you know, other close relatives that serve. So there was some sense of that. But, you know, I think what was important for me was I, you know, I grew up in a big family, you know, this really grounded me. It's what has kept me grounded to this area. My wife is from St. Paul as well. And so this has always been home. I was well supported by my family. I'm heavily influenced by teachers and coaches that I went through and why I wasn't necessarily pushed to do athletics or this activity or that activity. But my parents really supported whatever it is that we were interested in doing. So I think I just had a great environment to grow up in and it was a good time to grow up in the 60s and 70s. And I've always loved this area. It's where I've always wanted to come back. And I just love being from the Midwest, and I love what it stands for. And I think that has been really the core of my service corps, my career.

Adam: I want to ask you more about your career and how you rose so quickly. Within your career, very few officers become four-star generals, and even fewer rise as quickly as you rose in your career. Looking back, what were the keys to rising within your career? And what advice do you have for anyone listening on how they can rise within their careers?

General Votel: Well, in some regards, sometimes you're a survivor and opportunities come with that. But you know, more seriously than this, I got some early advice from an officer when I first came into the military. And one of the things he said was, “Hey, focus on doing a good job in whatever position you're in. Now, don't worry about what comes next. If you do a good job at the level that you are, then the opportunities are going to come”. And that really proved true for me. You know, along the way I had the opportunity to work with a variety of really great leaders who took a personal interest in me, in my professional development, and creating opportunities for me, and they provided me with those opportunities. And so, as I kind of think back about that, you know, the directory of my career, those are really important things. I guess the other thing I would just share with you is, I think it's important for people to be ready to take opportunities when you step forward. You know, in my whole career, the direction of my career changed when an opportunity was presented to me. I was a lieutenant colonel. I've been in the military about 18 years and I was doing well. But by happenstance of somebody getting hurt, another person choosing not to compete for an opportunity, an opportunity was presented to me and I took it. I was ready to take it on. I had an opportunity to command a Ranger Battalion. And for me, I think that really changed the direction of my career and gave me more opportunities, it gave me greater exposure. And I really think it put me on a path that was quite different than perhaps the path that I was on. So I think you got to look for opportunities, you got to get help along the way from people, and you got to cultivate that a little bit. But you got to be ready, I think, to seize opportunities. And for me, I think those things kind of worked out.

Adam: Great advice. On your first point, one of the first interviews I did on this podcast was with Dan Helfrich, the CEO of Deloitte Consulting. And when I asked him, “Dan, what did you do to become the CEO of Deloitte Consulting? How did you rise within your career?”, he gave the exact same answer that you gave, which is, “I never tried to become the CEO of Deloitte Consulting, I never aspired to become the CEO of Deloitte Consulting, I aspired to do as good a job as I could do, day in and day out. And by focusing on being as good as I could be each and every day, I was recognized for my work, and I advanced as a result of it”. And to your point of the importance of being ready, you never know when that moment is going to come. But when that moment does come, and each and every one of us has different opportunities that come our way, are you going to meet that moment? Are you going to be prepared? And so much of our success is a culmination of all of the experiences that we've had leading up to that moment of opportunity.

General Votel: I really think that's true. And I still talk to a lot of young officers, who are cadets, that are graduating from ROTC or West Point commissioning programs. And they have obviously a very, you know, they want to do well, they want to do cool things, they want to do neat things. But you really have to be straight with them and talk to them about the importance of just doing whatever job that you have, whether it's a really sexy one, or it's a not so sexy one, is really important because in many regards that's how you get noticed. That's how you establish your reputation. And so, I just think it's so important just to do well, wherever you find yourself.

Adam: Something I wanted to ask you, I mentioned Dan Helfrich, something that I love about this podcast is I have the incredible opportunity to speak to America's top business leaders, America's top military leaders, such as yourself. And something that I've learned through these conversations is that the core principles of effective leadership are universal. What I hear from CEOs, what I hear from generals, what I hear from Hall of Fame athletes, can be applied across disciplines. And not only are you one of the most successful military leaders of our day, but you are the CEO of BENS. You're working with incredible business leaders on how to keep America safe, and incorporating best practices accordingly. And I wanted to ask you, number one, in your own personal experience, what do you believe are the core principles of effective leadership? And number two, by virtue of being around great military leaders, great business leaders, to what extent have you seen that firsthand reinforced?

General Votel: That's a great question. So, you know, I think over the course of my career, and I think this happens for a lot of military officers, I'm sure it happens with people in the private sector and in other places, you begin to think about leadership and you start searching for new ideas about leadership. What I learned over the course of my career, Adam, is that leadership, you know, effective leadership is really almost always about the basics. You know, the most important things that I learned as a cadet at West Point that were reinforced in me when I went to Fort Benning as a brand new infantry lieutenant were, you know, set the example. And understand that, as a leader, you are responsible for everything your unit does or fails to do. And those two things to me are key. People are always looking to you for an example, to see what you're going to do. And you are, whether you want to be, whether you are thinking that you are, you are a role model all the time. And so this idea of setting the example and this idea of owning it, owning the mission, owning the organization, owning the responsibility for it, I think, are just really core important values in leadership. And for me, it's the fundamental stuff. It's the stuff you learn at the very lowest level that apply at the highest level. Certainly as a senior leader, I mean, there are other skills I had to develop. I often talk to groups of senior officers and I try to emphasize the importance of being a relationship builder, the importance of being a great and effective communicator, and being able to talk to different audiences and get your message across. Those are really important skills as, certainly, a senior leader. But it really gets back down to this: setting the example and owning. Being responsible for everything the organization does or fails to do. To me, these are the most important principles.

Adam: You mentioned the importance of learning from others. You've been around so many great leaders, military leaders, business leaders, have there been any particular lessons along the way that have stood out to you where you've said, “I'm going to take this and incorporate that into my own personal leadership style”?

General Votel: Sure. Yeah. I mean, you know, I guess this is the wonderful thing about being in the military. And I suspect it's probably the same thing in the private sector for people that, you know, have long careers there. But you know, I had an opportunity to be around a lot of great leaders, and you can watch, you can emulate them, but you also have the opportunity to interact with them. I remember when I was being promoted the four-star general and I was going to become the US Special Operations Commander, I was replacing a gentleman we all know, Admiral Bill McRaven, who was a friend, colleague, and mentor to me on a couple of different occasions. I asked him, “Hey, can I come down and just talk with you about leadership at the four-star level?”. And he said, “Sure”. So I did. And when I went down and spent some time in his office, I said, “Okay, I'm here to learn. Tell me what the most important thing about this is”. And what he said was, “Okay, here's my advice to you. On the very first day you're a four-star, call all the other four-stars by their first name”. I absorbed that for a second. I kind of thought, “What?”. But then, what I realized was, what he's telling me is, be confident in yourself because you've arrived, you're there, you're at the table. Be confident in your own skills and trust your own instincts. And you know, that to me, that was a, you know, in his own way, it was just a really important lesson. And that I picked up from, you know, somebody that I deeply respect that I work with a lot, that I tried to emulate and model myself after. But you know, again, it's just such a simple lesson. And, and to this day, when I talk to people, I emphasize the importance of being confident in yourself, trusting yourself, trusting your own instincts, as you step into situations. And to me, this was really important. And I can cite literally dozens of other examples of senior officers that I've had interactions with somewhere along my career, who have some kind of simple notion like that, that have really just crystallized in your own mind what leadership is about and how to how to conduct yourself when you're in challenging situations and complex environments. And it has really served me extraordinarily well.

Adam: I love that. And I give a talk on the core principles of resonant leadership. And one of those principles is self-confidence. The first one is self-awareness. The second one is self-confidence. And the key theme of this podcast is the importance of lifelong learning, learning from others, going out and seeking the wisdom of those around you. Speaking to Admiral McRaven, asking him, “How can I learn from you?”. Having the humility even though you were one of the rising stars within the United States military, and ultimately became one of the greatest leaders in the US military, you had the humility to look around you and ask, “How can I become better? How can I learn more? Who are the people around me who I can learn from?”. And that allowed you to become a better leader.

General Votel: I think that's exactly right. I recognize there's a certain amount of humility in that. But, you know, I think leadership is a lifelong journey. It's a learning journey. And you've got to make mistakes along the way. You're going to make bad judgments and you're going to make bad calls. But you've got to learn from that, you've got to seek the advice of others as you move through whatever path it is that you are on. And frankly, Adam, you know, as I would never describe myself as a businessman, but in my role as the CEO and President of BENS, I have interaction with lots of CEOs from across the country. And I will tell you, these qualities are very, very similar. There are very successful people who seek help. They have great, strong relationships. They’ve got people that they trust, that they look up to, that they try to model themselves after. So to me, this isn't anything particularly peculiar to the military. I think it's particularly peculiar to be effective leaders, of learning from others, and emulating what's good and what's bad and the things that you see and trying to build on that as you move forward.

Adam: You mentioned the importance of self-confidence. And that leads me to a topic I wanted to explore with you. You lead the most elite units in the United States military performing the highest risk missions. And we think of our Special Forces as bulletproof, absolutely fearless. But how do members of our Special Forces get that way? How do they become so fearless? And how can anyone listening to this conversation, if not, develop a level of fearlessness that our Special Operations Forces have, at least get to a point where they can eliminate whatever fears may be holding them back in their lives or in their careers?

General Votel: Yeah, it's a great question. And it's one I think about an awful lot. And I think when I think about the Special Operations community, and what makes it so unique and distinct, and so successful, and the things we’re asked to do. I mean, I really think it gets down to the culture that surrounds this whole community, you know, whether it's, you know, thinking of them as quiet professionals, or however you want to, has created this ultimate adaptable force that is always trying to be what the nation needs it to be, at whatever instant in history we're at. I mean, culture, I think, really plays a huge role in this. I mean, we put a lot of emphasis on empowering leaders at a very low level. In Special Operations, in the military, we do in general, but especially in the Special Operations community. And as a result, when you put somebody in charge and they're leading a small team, or they are conducting a mission of national strategic importance, you're placing a lot of trust in that particular individual to accomplish the mission and take care of the people along the way. And we start that in a very, in the military in general, we start that at a very low, low level. When you think about it, for example, the most challenging leadership position that we have is a platoon leader. And this is a young man or woman who steps, just steps out of college or commissioning source, and all of a sudden, is standing in front of 30 or 40 troops that are, you know, essentially their peers and they're in charge, they are responsible. So you've got to figure out ways to make people be confident and empower them in the positions that they are in. And that empowerment, I think, breeds confidence and competence of our leaders down there. And so, you know, all of this, I think, is kind of wrapped up in this idea of the culture of the organization. And I think that this is so critical to it. It was expressed to me one time by a retired noncommissioned officer, who was a founding member of one of the most prominent and sensitive Special Operations organizations that the United States had. And we were discussing culture and what he shared with me left such an impression on me. We were talking about how this organization was just getting on its feet. And what he said about, you know, culture was, they had a common understanding about not only what failure and values or what standards hurt the organization, but they recognize that it would hurt the nation. They understood a bigger purpose. And so, they really understood this idea of the culture and what this organization meant to the nation. And that really guided the way that people operated, how they made decisions, how they led, you know, everything with it. And so this idea of culture, I think, is important. And in Special Operations, man, I think it does breed these very, you know, competent, confident, empowered, lower leaders that just can do incredible things if we can just provide them the tools to do it. And I think we see that on a routine basis in this community.

Adam: As someone who was instrumental in fostering that culture, what advice do you have on a more micro-level to anyone listening who might be fighting fears in their lives, in their careers? For example, so many people are afraid of speaking publicly. So many people have all kinds of fears, big and small. What advice do you have on how anyone can overcome whatever fear they're facing?

General Votel: Well, you know, I think there's a school of thought there that says, you know, jump in the water, it's fine. You've got to step forward and confront the fears whether it's public speaking, whatever the specific fear is that you have, I mean, you have to confront it, you have to be willing to confront it. The other thing is, I think you have to be willing to ask for help in these areas. No leader is an absolute complete leader. I just haven't met one. I don't think I am. I mean, I certainly have my blind spots and weaknesses. And I like to think that, you know, that I'm strong but it kind of helped me compensate in certain areas and I'm smart enough to know where I need help and enlist others in helping me to fill in those blind spots. So you have to be willing to step out and ask people to help you in these areas, to seek some advice, seek some counsel. But again, you have to seek some opportunities to do this. You won't become an effective public speaker if you don't practice that if you don't get out and do it, if you don't throw yourself out there, as you don't learn from those experiences. And so, you know, I think there's a, you know, kind of a dual combination here of seeking help, but also stepping forward in and exposing yourself and making yourself vulnerable, and learning from that so you can become better. 

Adam: Great advice. You led a 79 member coalition that liberated Iraq and Syria from ISIS. Incredible. What are your best lessons and biggest takeaways from that experience? And what is your best advice on how to build and lead successful coalitions?

General Votel: My predecessors in this job as the CENTCOM commander who, General Lloyd Austin, who is now our Secretary of Defense, I think they did a very good job, along with the, you know, the chairman at the time, Marty Dempsey, of beginning to build the coalition and bringing people together around a common purpose. You know, this idea of kava, that very clearly articulates a common purpose, I think, is a very, very important starting point for building coalitions. The second big piece of this is respecting every member of the coalition, you know, not of those 79 nations, not an entities that were part of our coalition, that they were all equal in terms of the capabilities they were bringing, or the resources that they provided, or the amounts of troops that they put on the ground. I mean, we had to wait, there was great disparity between all that. But I think what's important to understand is that everybody brings unique aspects to the coalition. And what you have to do is, you have to value that, you have to prize that, and you have to make sure your partners know that you're appreciative of that. So this idea of inclusiveness with partners and coalitions, I think, is really important. But it's got to go beyond that. I think one of the challenges that I had to confront as a CENTCOM commander was keeping people engaged in what, for the most part, was a US-driven strategy and campaign decision-making process. We're the biggest player. We had the leadership there. But we had coalition partners who had people at risk, who had stakes in this. And so, you had to find ways to get them involved in the planning and the decision-making cycles of this, so that they felt that they had ownership and what was going on. And I think we did this. Well, I think I was set up for success in this. But I think I was in an environment where we really could build on that. And we could make people believe, not just feel, but believe that you are part of this coalition, and you're really contributing to it. You know, more broadly on the whole campaign, I mean, having been involved in a variety of these things in the past, I think there's two things to me that really stand out in this one in the campaign against ISIS. First, we really invested in the partnerships that we had on the ground, whether it was with the Iraqis, or whether it was with the Syrian Democratic Forces. And what we did was, we didn't try to create them in our own image, we took them as they were with all their strengths and weaknesses. And we just tried to enable and optimize what they were doing. And we didn't try to own things that only they can know, we just tried to make them as successful as we could. And to me, that was really important in this. You know, it's kind of a through and through approach that we applied here where they own it, they're gonna own the ramifications of this, our job is to enable them, and it may not go as fast, they might not do it exactly the way we would, but in the end, they are going to own this. And this was a really important aspect of it. The second thing that I think was really important as we really stayed laser-focused on the mission that we had, which was the defeat of ISIS, we didn't get drawn off and try to deal with Iran. As much as we would like to do that, we didn't get sucked off into doing a bunch of other things here. We stayed really laser-focused on the mission that we had. And that became a really strong unifying aspect for the whole coalition, not just the US members, but really the whole coalition. This is about the defeat of ISIS, and what ISIS is doing to our nations. And that was really important and trying to keep those folks. And we had opportunities along the way where we could go off on tangents, but I think we were very good about staying focused on that. And I was fortunate to have political leadership that kept us focused on that. And to me, that was a big part of the success of this campaign.

Adam: And those two lessons are applicable to anyone. To all leaders, to all entrepreneurs, you don't need to fight ISIS to understand the importance of staying laser-focused on whatever mission you have at hand. If you're running in 100 different directions, you're never going to be able to run forward. And earlier on in our conversation, we were speaking about the importance of empowering others. So critical to great leadership, so critical to success.

General Votel:  No, exactly. There's absolutely no doubt about that. And, you know, for me, as I kind of now, a couple years retired here, and as I reflect back on this, I mean, it isn't anything about military leadership or business leadership, there's just leadership. And it's the principles that are the same. The environment, you know, the situation may be a little bit different in terms of what you're doing. Some of the objectives may be different in the goals as you're moving towards, but it's just leadership. It's universal in terms of the principles and approaches and the things that are the basics that make you successful in the long term.

Adam: What can anyone listening to this conversation do to become a better leader?

General Votel: Well, I think the first thing about being a good leader, I think is, you've got to be a good follower. You've got to appreciate the role of the leader, and you got to appreciate the role of the follower. So I think it really is important to be able to listen to people above you to, you know, absorb what they're telling you and do your very best to help accomplish. So you have to be a good follower. I think you also have to study leadership. Yeah, you know, reading and observing and interacting with leaders, I think is important. You've got to seek opportunities to be a leader and you've got to practice leadership. And when I say practice leadership, it means you have to learn from mistakes. You're gonna make mistakes along the way, whether you're a second lieutenant or a sergeant or a four-star general. I'm just here to tell you, you are going to make mistakes almost every day to some extent. And you've got to learn and you've got to try to minimize the opportunity to repeat mistakes along the way. Said more simply, you have to learn from your mistakes and try not to repeat things that didn't go well in the past. And so, for me, you have to be a good follower, you have to be professionally curious about being a leader, you have to seek opportunities, and you have to learn from the mistakes you're making. And don't be intimidated by the fact that you made a mistake, you know, learn from it and move on. I think that's a really important thing. And I think a lot of good potential leaders will go and appreciate that. They might be off a little bit on timing because they get burned by a bad experience and learn from it. They don't learn an environment that allows them to grow out of it. And so then, they don't develop it as much as they need to

Adam: What can anyone do to become more successful personally and professionally?

General Votel: Well, I think most importantly, you got to figure out what's important to you. There's a Hollywood movie that you know, City Slickers with Billy Crystal, and you know about the guys that go out on the ranch, and they're trying to bring the herd in. And there's, you know, there's kind of this grizzly cowboy out there, played by Jack Palance, his name is Curly. And he says he's got them. He understands the meaning of life. And when they finally asked him, what he told them is, “It's one thing”. And they say, “Well, what is that one thing it says?”. You have to identify that. So I think the key to success personally and professionally, is finding out what's most important for you, and pursuing it. And being passionate about it. And investing the time and understanding it and getting good at it. For me, I didn't have a deep experience growing up as being in the military. But I loved the idea of being in the military. I loved the romance of it. I loved being around organizations, I loved the missions, I loved everything about it. And that became a passion for me. So I just love going to work every day in my, you know, 39 years in the military. I love showing up for work. I can't think of a time when I didn't do that. So you got to love what it is you're doing. You have to find what's important to you. And you get to do it.

Adam: General Votel, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being part of Thirty  Minute Mentors.

General Votel: Great to be with you, Adam. Thanks. Thanks again, I really enjoyed it.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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