I recently interviewed NFL Hall of Famer LeRoy Butler on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a member of the NFL Hall of Fame and is a Super Bowl champion. LeRoy Butler is a four-time first-team All-Pro and is a four-time pro bowler. LeRoy was recognized by the NFL, as the best player in his position in the 1990s as a member of the NFL's 1990s all-decade team. LeRoy, thank you for joining us.

LeRoy: Oh, glad you asked me. I appreciate it.

Adam: Great to have you on. You spent 12 years excelling in one of the most physically grueling and demanding sports at the highest level. But growing up in Jacksonville, there were times when you struggled walking, you overcame serious physical ailments and became a star, high school football player and then a star college football player before getting drafted by the Green Bay Packers. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What early experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shape the trajectory of your success?

LeRoy: Well, growing up in the inner city, poverty, and Jacksonville, Florida, a place called a Blodgett homes, it was brought across between good times if you're familiar with that, or Cabrini Green, these projects in Chicago, a lot of crime, my mom raised five kids by herself. And it was rough. But for me, it was even probably worse because you grew up in poverty. But that wasn't the most damaging thing to a young kid growing up because he was special needs. I mean, having braces on my legs, not being able to run and jump like the other kids, not going to sleepovers, not going to the swimming pool, not having a bike for the first time, all that can hurt a kid's mental health. And you're in the South, where it's a lot of racism, a lot of just bad stuff. But for me, I've always had the same smile every day. And what gave me that smile, was that my hero was my mom and I told my mom, I wanted to play in the NFL, to help her get out of poverty and not be poor. So that kind of shaped my thinking of how to become successful. And she just told me some things along the way to help me. And that's what I've always thought about. She said, helping people who you don't know makes you a hero. Heroes don't have numbers on their chests, it can't fly. They don't do that anybody can be one. If you just help somebody you don't know, military police, teachers, she told me teachers are the smartest people in the world. God gives them that ability every year to teach 40 or 50 new kids, learn their names, and their birthdays, and you need that knowledge to go out into the world to become successful. And so to me, I looked up to those people who she was telling me that was gonna help me one day get into the NFL.

Adam: I love that. Helping people who you don't know, makes you a hero. I love that. In your first two seasons in the NFL, the Packers went six and 10 and then went 4 and 12.

LeRoy: It wasn't my fault.

Adam: I didn't say it was.

LeRoy: I'm just putting it out there because I think it's funny. But I will say this though real quick. Coming from Florida State I won 10 or 11 games, but three straight years. So those first two years of the Packers, it was rough when you go through them as losing.

Adam: LeRoy you have ESP because you're reading my mind to give listeners a little bit of context. In your first two seasons in the NFL, the Packers have this deep losing culture. The coach gets fired. A new coach comes in, Mike Holmgren, the team goes nine and seven, and four years later Packers win the Super Bowl. What were the keys to shifting the culture from a losing culture to a winning culture? And how can leaders create winning organizational cultures?

LeRoy: That's a great question. Because you gotta have faith in something or your goal for anything. So it was a few things real quick that created the faith that I have. I'm a person who attempted to get baptized three times to my faith and have always said, I believe it's going to get better. So when you go to them as losing, and then you see the franchise go through it for a long time, because the first two Super Bowls, you're winning. And then it's a drought. So I'm thinking, okay, it's gonna be a transition with Mike Holmgren and I didn't know who he was. I had no idea. I knew he had won a Super Bowl as a coordinator, but you're gonna be here as a coach, but I still have faith, things are going to change. I was going through that transition. And then we get Brett Favre. Then we speak a faith, we get Reggie White. Reggie soon enough in the NFL to become a free agent. So now was done to learn how to win. And then you're still because I had best friends like Emmitt Smith, Michael Irvin, and some of my best friends, Steve Young. They were winning Super Bowls. But I wasn't. So I'm like, am I ever gonna want a Super Bowl here? That's a yes. So actually we got to that level, to start to win and the 90s. It was Dallas, San Francisco, and Green Bay dominated by the whole decade. So I just had a death while I stayed with one team. As soon as I later will be on that national spotlight to win a Super Bowl, it was amazing.

Adam: How can leaders instill faith in the people that they lead? Do you have this deep sense of faith? But for those on the team who might not necessarily have that instinctively? How can leaders build that among those people?

LeRoy: That is what my mom told me. She said, that to be a good leader, you once had to be a good follower. So I said, "Mom, that's deep. Give me the notes." Well, think about it. You don't wake up and be a general. You once had to be a private. But as a private, you're paying attention. You're looking at things and then is your opportunity. And now you are a leader, and when Reggie white left the Packers and I was still there, I was the team leader. Because I watched Reggie. So I would say some kids, and adults, some of them are fantastic followers, and they don't want to be the leader. But they know how to stay in line with the team concept to win a Super Bowl. But sometimes when you're a quarterback, you're forced into it and you don't want to be. Brett Favre just wants to play. He's not a rah, rah guy. He doesn't want to give speeches. He just wants to demoralize the other team. So I was the rah-rah guy, speeches, getting guys together. There's nothing wrong with that. You don't have to be Apple Mail to get respect, because we all get rings. His ring was just like mine, even if he's in VP. Yes, he gets to go to Disney. But I got money, I can go to. When guys think like that, that's when he started to win. It's hard to do shows if you don't hire a producer, editor, or commentator. But if you do all of those things. Now you can say you know what, my favorite nephew? I'm gonna teach you how to edit so you can work with me and give him a job. You have to follow your parents, your grandparents to one day when you're a parent, I got it for my mom how to treat my kids. It's the same thing in sports. Everybody can't be LeBron James or Michael Jordan. But when they leave, you are the guy. I learned from those guys. That's how I learned to be a good leader.

Adam: Roy, you shared so much there that I want to unpack. Great quote from your mom, to be a great leader, you have to be a good follower. That's a guiding principle of many great leaders, including General Martin Dempsey, you gave the example that before you can become a general, you need to become a private, and one of the earliest guests on Thirty Minute Mentors was General Martin Dempsey, who was the highest ranking person in the entire United States military and he wasn't born a general, as you said, you're not born as the leader of the organization, you have to start somewhere. And it starts with understanding how to take instructions before you can understand how to give instructions.

LeRoy: I think that's what God intended us. When you're born, you can't walk right away, you have to learn. You watch, you learn the language, that is why kids two years old can speak Spanish, could hear it from their parents. I think the team that wrecked themselves, or organizations that wreck themselves because everybody wants to be on top. But they don't want to put in the work. And the work is fun. Because you learn things. And I just love that I got that from my mother and my grandparents. And it just really helped me be more grounded.

Adam: Another important lesson there, embrace the work, embrace the journey. Every player in the NFL is trying to win a Super Bowl. Every player in the NFL is trying to get a big contract trying to win whatever individual awards they can win. But as important as it is to focus on whatever goals you say, life is about embracing the journey along the way, embracing the work that you put in, and enjoying every moment of it.

LeRoy: No question about it. I mean, because if you ask all retired players, they missed a camaraderie. But they've never gone over to their teammates say, man, I love you, man. I went through a divorce too. So let's deal with it together. You know what? My kid went off to college. I was emotional. I went through too. That's what you get in the locker room. I think there's a great story. Mike Holmgren was an amazing guy, was a fantastic therapist. I was sitting in my locker and I got a Michael Jordan shirt on. So he walks by and he comes back. He says, "Hey, why don't you have a LeRoy Butler shirt?" I say it's Michael Jordan's. And he said, "Yeah, but why don't you have your shirt?" I said, "I don't have one." He said precisely, "Go do something. Make some play and get your shirt." Okay, so I went and did something. I got my shirt. So that's the kind of stuff that most guys probably would have got to bend it. Then learned that live lesson. And most guys, sometimes they're so narcissistic, that they don't see that they need the guy next to them to make it work. You need a special team guy to make it work. For example, Desmond Howard was the Super Bowl MVP. He's the reason why I have a Super Bowl ring. It wasn't me. It wasn't Brett, wasn't Reggie. It was all of us. But what is your opportunity? He stepped up. And I love him for that. And if he ever sees this, which he will. I think he'll be shocked to know how much I appreciate him. But he'll also say, "You know what? I remember LeRoy telling me how much he appreciates me. So it makes you feel good. That's how you win. And being a special needs kid, the ultimate team sport, football, where you get a loving God. All of them think of their demands because they probably weren't in high school. But when you get to the pros, everybody is great. Some guys have better talent. But other guys can be smarter. But to put these things together and say, you know what? That's the reason why we won. Because it wasn't about me. You're not a band. Somebody asked me by the Green Bay Packers, why are they winning with Jordan down the stretch. Youngest team in the league. I said the reason why they're winning is they're not a band with a lead singer, as most teams are. It's about the quarterback, and everybody else. That's a band, Packers, Orchestra. Everybody sounds the same. The guy from percussion, doing a little triangle thing, or hitting new things that everybody's saying. That's how you win. Because as soon as the lead singer breaks up and leaves, oh, we gotta find another singer. And sometimes that can take a while. But I can replace a guy in the orchestra. You don't even know we replaced him. Can we all sound the same? Like Nick Cannon. I love Nick Cannon and drum line, he had to learn that. One band one sound. They don't hear you doing that solo. They don't even hear that. What they hear is everybody. And that's how you win. And I think in all sports, that's the only way you can win this sport. You can't do it by yourself.

Adam: I love that. A line you mentioned that stood out to me. You said that Mike Holmgren was a great therapist. You played for four different coaches in the NFL, and you played for a legendary college coach Bobby Bowden. What are the key elements of a great coach? And what are the key elements of a great leader?

LeRoy: This part is very emotional. We're calling about because here I am in Blodgett homes, poverty, crime was out of control, terrible place to raise kids, but much fewer recruits. And I just remember being on Proposition 48. I mean, I didn't pass the SAT. So I wasn't eligible. So I was the consensus All-American. I was one of 33 top players in the state of Florida in 100 years. I think about 100 years, I won to 33 players. And I get a call from my favorite teacher, Miss Gordon, at Robert E. Lee High School. Now it's called Riverside. We were going to change it from Robert E. Lee. But that's a different show. And I think I couldn't go to the pros because I didn't pass the SATs. After all, I had a learning disability. I told you I was in special education. So I wasn't smart in another career, 2.2 But God made everybody good at something. The kid who's valedictorian of 4.8, can do things in his mind. I can't. But he also can't do the Lambo leap. But we're not just each other. Two things can be true. He's great. So am I. So I'm like it's never gonna happen. I'm never going to college. God is good. Coach Bowden write my mom a handwritten letter. Handwritten, not typed up by a secretary. No. Handwritten say, "Ms. Butler, I'm coming to the inner city to give Mr. Butler a scholarship." I thought I wasn't eligible. My teachers say yes, true, but you can still go to college if the university, can take up to six people. I was one of those six. Everybody's all American. He could have chosen anybody's house to go to. Any Americans, he chose me. I call the coach on a pay phone. I say, "Coach, you can't come into the project. This place is terrible. It's not safe." He says, "You live there. I'm visiting." He comes in this convoy of cars in the projects. People are like, "Coach Bobby Bowden, why is he here?" For that kid. That same kid who's in a wheelchair to set his plan in the NFL one day, he's coming to see him. Everybody runs down to the apartment, gets out, and goes inside. And my mom offers him something to drink. And it's something floating on the top. I'm like, "Coach, don't drink that." So my sister grabbed like, "No, no, don't drink it." He said, "Miss Butler, I gotta get him out of here. I got to give him a chance to succeed." And again, I don't know why. He told me but I had asked him, and I said, "Coach, why did you choose me?" He said, "I read your bio. And you said you were saved. That did it for me." Most guys, when they write their bio, I can benchpress this, I can run this. But I was like, listen, I'm saying I just believe that my opportunity is coming. And I won't hurt myself and nobody else to do it. That was it. So Coach Bowden saved my life, rest in peace. If it wasn't that one yes for me, we get tons of nos. I'm sure when you ask God to do interviews, some of them don't get back to you. Some of them don't even respond. I respond to be that one yes for you. I don't care about who you're gonna get out to me, who didn't get back to you. That's their fault. Because it's one of the best shows. You miss it out. Do that for people who you don't know. If it wasn't for Coach Bobby Bowden being that one yes, but me, I don't know what my life would be.

Adam: A lot of great lessons there. When I reach out to people, plenty of times people say no, and plenty of times, people don't respond. But plenty of times people say yes. And the only way you're going to get a yes is by putting yourself out there. And as you spoke about Bobby Bowden's leadership, a few things stood out to me. Showing up, caring, and providing opportunities. As you spoke about yourself, and your journey, we're all different. We're all unique. We're all special. It's figuring out what it is about you that makes you special that makes you different, that makes you unique. That's the key to getting to a place where you can enjoy success, success, professionally, success, personally, and success as a leader. And I love the fact that you didn't view the obstacles you faced growing up being a special needs student facing physical disabilities, intellectual disabilities, you didn't say this is terminal. You said, you know what? I don't necessarily have the gifts that a 4.8 student has. But that 4.8 student doesn't have the gifts that I have. So let me figure out how I can take what I do have and leverage it so that I can become the best version of myself. You've been very vocal and a leader in the fight against bullying. There are lots of great leaders out there. There are lots of bad leaders out there, including leaders who can be described as bullies. What advice do you have for people who are dealing with bullies whether they're dealing with bullies in the workplace dealing with bullies in their lives? What advice do you have?

LeRoy: I tell all kids and adults, here's the difference. You have to figure out where's the fine line between being a bully and having fun with somebody. So, I give them examples. My uncle is a Bears fan. And my aunt is from Aurora, Chicago. So he's a Bears fan because she is. And when they won the Super Bowl in '86, oh, he was locked in. And I was a young man back then going to college when I realized he was a Bears fan. And he wanted me to go to Chicago when I was getting drafted, but he was just like, "Go anywhere with the Packers. I don't like them Packers." He is so obnoxious, he's going in at the time. Full disclosure. I'm a Cowboys fan. So Roger Staubach was my hero and I love Drew Pearson and Tony Dorsett. I mean, I don't want to start naming all these Cowboys. I'm a huge Cowboys fan. So I wanted to go there, but I was able to go to the most storied franchise ever. And when I got that phone call to go to the Packers, oh my god, I said, "What is going on?" But here's the difference. He'll text me something like, okay, you had Rogers. If this is going to get bad, you guys are gonna be terrible. And I will take him. Yeah, but I bet you can’t spell your head coach's name Eberflus. But if five or six people get together collectively, and want to put out a text or something that's not true about a kid who's autistic, or a young lady who may not be in the same sorority, and just do something negative, we don't want it. Or they pile on to somebody else's deficiencies or they're struggling with anxiety or whatever and you prey upon that, to make yourself feel better. That's what we don't need. Because we don't want to kid reacting to that to hurt himself, or somebody else. So I also give people advice to do what I did. My grandmother told me that God made everybody good at something. And she told me my gift was I could ignore anything negative. I didn't know kids were picking on me or bullying me because I ignored them. So we got to learn how to put the blinders on, to ignore it. If it's something on social media, and doesn't pertain to me, swipe it. Make it obsolete by deleting it. You get a group text, they're piling on you. You know it ain't true. Delete it. The number one thing for narcissistic people, they don't want to be ignored. Keep your pride and your joy. You write your headlines, not the group. Because most people read the headline, they never read the story. Force them to read the story by controlling your headline. Ignore them. And I know that's easy to say. But sometimes you get tempted. But the quicker you delete it and keep it moving, the better off it is going to be. So the best advice I give anybody. Just ignore it. Just try it. And you'll see the people who are bullying you, they get frustrated. They'll come over to you and say what did you do to ignore me? Because I thought I had you there for a minute. I don't have time for that. I'm trying to play in the NFL, to get my mom out of poverty. That's enough as it is. I can't let you tell me something that I know is not true to bother me. Because if I let it bother me, you're going to do it every single day. Put the blinders on and keep moving. My grandfather would tell me this sometimes. You're gonna be pressed to react. But he told me as long as they don't touch you, don't even react. But they touch you got to defend yourself. And sometimes you get pressed and it turns into a fight. But I didn't start it. But I'm gonna end it. And if I saw somebody else doing stuff, I'm telling this young man who's bullying this kid who can't communicate for himself, so I'm gonna help him stand up by this guy starting it. I'm on my own business, but I'm not gonna stand by and let you do something to somebody that can't communicate, therapy stutters or emotionally can't communicate, but somebody picking on me, I react back to them. I'm gonna be that voice for those people.

Adam: When you see something that you know is wrong, it's on you to rectify it. It's on you as a leader, it's on you as a human being, to do whatever you can to take a stand and fight back against whoever it is that's picking on bullying the next person. But at the same time, I do like the advice that you share. If there's someone whether it's in the schoolyard or whether it's in the workplace, who seems to get a rise out of bullying people, seems to get a rise out of bullying you, a good strategy, a good tactic for trying to combat it is don't give them the time of day. Ignore them. What they want is to get a rise out of you. If you blow them off, that's the last thing that they want.

LeRoy: After everybody in the world has been ignored, doesn't feel good. You can flip it around on them by, I can't hear you. I see your mouth moving but I can't hear you. She can hear me, right? Yeah, she just ignoring you. Because you said something negative. She can only hear the positive stuff you say. When you start talking positive? Oh, yeah, I can hear you now.

Adam: And a broader point that you bring up is the importance of positivity, the power of positive thinking, blocking out the negative, there are plenty of things every single day that can bring us down if we harp on them. But the most successful people are the people who are capable of focusing on the good, focusing on the things around us that are positive, and blocking out the things that aren't.

LeRoy: You're going to have to because everybody in the world is not like you. And my mom used to say if everybody was like me, this would be a great place. But realistically, they're not. They're just not. So people don't have to like what I like and I'm okay with that. I mean, case in point, I have six daughters and a son. And when we go to Disney or somewhere, I always get plain ice cream. And they are like, "Dad, why don't you get nuts or chocolate?" I want what I know is good. I'm not trying to try something else. And I get disappointed because if I try something else and get disappointed, it's on me. I knew I should have just stuck to what I know. And I may even taste theirs. But I want what I want because I know it's good. It's boring to you. But it makes me happy. And you could just see them just piling on trying to get me to try different kinds of ice cream. Nope.

Adam: I don't think I would get along well with your kids because no one has a more boring style of eating than I do. So your kids would be bullying me. I would need to stay away from that. What can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

LeRoy: Figure out what you like to do, what brings joy to me? When am I smiling the most? When am I more excited the most and do that? You can make money. You can feel good about what you're doing and your mental health is in a great place. And then the things that you say always just get me so angry and out of my element, stay away from it. It is almost like you have to write it down. So you can see it and say, "You know what? That's what I should do." This is leap year the inventor of the Lambeau Leap, which was 30 years ago in December. And I just want people to say one thing about LeRoy, he's not the richest guy. He's not the best-dressed guy. But man, that guy seems happy as hell. How does he get that happy? What happened when he was little? Now, I'm happy because I always try to help people to help people.

Adam: LeRoy, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

LeRoy: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much. One of the best shows I've ever been on. I really enjoyed it.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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