I recently spoke to Marisa and Simon Cleveland, authors of the new book There is No Box. Marisa is a New York Times and USA Today bestselling author and Simon teaches at Johns Hopkins University and Georgetown University.

Adam: Thanks again for taking the time to share your advice. First things first, though, I am sure readers would love to learn more about you. How did you get here? What experiences, failures, setbacks, or challenges have been most instrumental to your growth? 

Marisa: Thanks so much for having us. I think it’s wonderful that you take the time to spotlight emerging leaders and established ones on your blog. My path to right here developed after three decades of struggling to fit into a system not designed for me, so all the failures and setbacks were self-imposed. I spent the past decade creating a shift in my ideology and reframing how I viewed the obstacles I faced, and the most impactful challenge was changing my mindset to “why not?” Why not me? Why couldn’t I do that? I craved more experiences that interested me, and along the way, I found a community of emerging and existing leaders who supported my journey. This was the most instrumental to my growth. 

Simon: In my professional career, I chose to become a project manager because I knew this role would create an opportunity to build a large set of leadership skills faster than any other role. As a result, over the course of two decades, I have worked in a number of industries and on countless teams, and this role has helped me learn how to facilitate harmony within my team members and how to make sure that every member feels valued and important for the overall success of every project. The role has also offered me the chance to effectively coach and praise team members for their work, especially during difficult phases. It has also given me the chance to build rapport among the team members and learn how to keep motivation and enthusiasm levels high. Becoming a project manager has changed me to become an organized, ethical, confident, assertive, creative, fair, and dedicated member of society. It has made me become a better person and to recognize the importance of being a relatable leader.

Adam: What do you hope readers take away from your new book? 

Marisa: Oh, there are many mini-lessons scattered throughout the book. It’s so tricky to pinpoint just one. But… I’ll go with this: There’s no one way to make it, whatever make it even means, and it’s all relative because success looks different for everyone. You’re never too late or too old to achieve your goals, and your goals can change over time. You’re not stuck on one track. There is not just one path to get to where you want to be. And this is a stunningly spectacular fact.

Simon: One important message from the book is that leadership is a lifestyle. If one is to become a relatable leader, they need to embrace the leadership lifestyle not only at work, but at home with their family and their communities. By awakening to this realization, everyone would be able to not only influence others, but allow themselves to be influenced as well.  

Adam: What do you believe are the defining qualities of an effective leader?

Marisa: Relatability. Relatability broadens your range of influence. Through cultivating your relatability, you’re able to build better relationships with a wider range of people than those in your immediate circle, and relatable leaders focus on getting their message to those who need it, and they understand that it’s up to them to make sure their message is received.

Simon: Marisa said it beautifully. I’ll only add that leaders should reflect on their own starting lines, because knowing who they are will help them discover ways to connect with others and subsequently influence them in a positive way.

Adam: How can leaders and aspiring leaders take their leadership skills to the next level? 

Simon: One of the key traits of relatable leaders is to realize that leadership as nonhierarchical. When a leader recognizes their own abilities to make a difference in the lives of others, they will understand that there are no levels to climb, but the ones they impose on themselves. It is then that they will begin to cultivate their relatability in ways to serve others, and it is then they will learn what skills they need to continue to hone in order to add value to the lives of others.

Marisa: I think everything Simon mentioned is exactly how I feel. Leadership development is an ongoing process, and leaders can be found anywhere within an organization. Once someone realizes leadership isn’t a title, they can take ownership of their own development, and though that path is unique to every individual, all leaders can take their leadership skills to the next level by cultivating their relatability. 

Adam: What are your three best tips applicable to entrepreneurs, executives, and civic leaders? 

Marisa: No matter where they are on their leadership journey, they can (1) promote themselves to the CEO of their lives. Then, they can (2) cultivate their relatability in the five ways mentioned in There Is No Box. After which, they can (3) create more relatable leaders.

Simon: Once again, I concur with Marisa’s words. I’ll only add that these leaders should start by reflecting on their own lives and the factors that impacted their leadership characteristics and then to ask themselves, is it time to change some of these, to improve upon them, or to completely abandon them and begin on a new path?

Adam: What is your best advice on building, leading, and managing teams?

Simon: In one of the chapters in our book, we explore the complexity of relatability. In it we argue that leaders should understand how they fit within multiple complex systems and how organizational complexity plays a role in building their own leadership competencies. As a result, one recommendation to build and lead successful teams is to learn to recognize the complexity factors of the system in which you function before you craft a strategy to manage your team.

Marisa: My best advice for anyone looking to build, lead, and manage a team is to cultivate your relatability and to take to heart the fact that it’s not about finding the right answer. It’s about being willing to have a conversation. To critically think and share ideas, but mostly it’s about gathering other people’s ideas and analyzing why they feel the way they feel so that you can better understand how to have effective conversations with them. Once you understand where a person is coming from, and why they behave the way they behave, you can then find common ground and lead them toward a common goal.

Adam: How can leaders build winning organizational cultures?

Simon: By understanding that leadership development is an ongoing process and committing the time to cultivate their relatability, leaders will essentially also be cultivating other relatable leaders. When you have an organization prioritizing these five strategies, you end up with a winning organizational culture.

Marisa: In today’s global economy and digital landscape, the challenge with building winning organizational cultures stems from a lack of relatability. I know I keep using this word, but this concept of relatability works in two ways for effective leaders: relating to others and relating to circumstances. It was such a common theme we noticed during our research, and we managed to develop five ways effective leaders cultivate their relatability.

Adam: What is the single best piece of advice you have ever received?

Simon: I love reflecting on Marisa’s leadership development words: “When I am at my best as a leader, I am like a compass. The best version of my leader self is when I’m guiding others along unique paths, helping them erase lines, and explore unknown territory toward becoming positive change agents.”

Marisa: My husband told me to promote myself to the CEO of my life, and it changed my entire mindset about life.

Adam: Is there anything else you would like to share? 

Marisa: Thank you for your focus on leadership and also higher education. It’s been such a wonderful experience to connect with you. One of our tenets in life is: When you reach the point in your life where you’re living your dream, we hope you remember to appreciate the path you traveled to get there. Then, if you’re able, help someone else on their path. Our ambition in life is to help others find and travel their paths.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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