I went one-on-one with Michele Trogni, CEO of Zinnia, at The Milken Institute 2025 Global Conference. Backed by Eldridge, Zinnia powers over 55% of digital annuity volume in the United States.
Adam: What do leaders need to know about data analytics?
Michele: Great question. They can really drive the best business results. I find that if you have the right data, it can give you a much better head start on what product to build, how to distribute it, and what the feedback is going to be. I’ve always been a data-driven leader. You have to put your brain and your experience around it, but after 30 years in financial services, insurance, and technology, I find now that it just takes much less time to make a decision because the data is right there and gives you the answer.
Adam: What kind of data is most valuable for leaders to collect and ultimately analyze?
Michele: I think there are so many different types. Obviously, financial data helps. Understanding what the four or five KPIs are that really drive the business is critical. I don’t like to have 100 KPIs. I find that too much for anybody to focus on. I love the concept of OKRs. We’re very deliberate about only having five categories of things that we look at, whether that’s the health of the financials, the health of the people we are hiring, how long they are staying, whether they are excited about what they’re doing, and what our customers say. Do they find the experience that we’re delivering to be the right experience? Pick the outcome you are looking for and then find three or four KPIs that really help you track each week or month to make sure you’re getting the right outcome.
In our field, we work with insurance companies that are underwriting. Currently, there are thousands of data points that go into underwriting. Right now, the field is really trying to narrow that down. Are there 10, 100, or 200 things that really matter about people’s health that are going to make a difference in how they should be underwritten for different products? I’ve always been a huge proponent of looking at the data, seeing what it tells you, and figuring it out from there. I always hated not having that at my fingertips to figure out how to lead. You have a certain number of objectives for the company overall, and you just have to put those at the heart of everything that you’re thinking about. Our mission is to ensure that more people have the products and services they deserve and expect for retirement and protection. We aim to ensure that, through our technology, more Americans get access to the right products at the right time in their lives. We’re very focused right now on financial longevity and thinking about how people can get the right products into their portfolio. We work with wealth managers and insurance companies, and for me, we’re the glue. We are creating that marketplace where people can come and say, Adam, you’re 35, you’ve got this going on in your life, and these are the right products for you now. It used to be an overwhelming environment and a bad experience, and now we’re trying to transform that. I look at what I’m going to be able to reflect on at the end of the day and say, did I achieve what we wanted to achieve? And then there are all the things around that. So again, it’s the people metrics, the financial metrics, all the things that help you determine if you are achieving your goals. I think you have to align the company’s objectives with how they reflect the industry and put that at the center of how you bring it all together.
Adam: How do you do that? Who are the people on your team that you need to ensure that you’re employing as you’re leading a data-driven business?
Michele: First of all, you have to have a lot of different types of people around you. I find that the diversity of experience and skillset is massively important. If everybody has only been in one industry or one field, you just don’t get the diversity of thought around the table. That, for me, is the most important starting point. I look for people who are running the individual businesses and what they have promised clients. What are clients asking for? Where do they want to be in three years? There is no point in asking where they want to be next month, because we’re building technology, and that takes time to deliver. We need to ensure our product evolution is happening now so we can continue to help grow the industry overall. So I start with the business. I also look for the revenue leaders, the sales leaders who are in the field, getting feedback every day. I was in a session earlier today, and someone was asked what field they would recommend to their children. They said sales. It’s the most immediate feedback and also super humbling. When you try to sell something and the person doesn’t buy because they don’t understand what you’re saying or it’s the wrong product, that teaches you a lot. I listen to salespeople a lot.
You also need a good numbers person around you, someone who can ground you. It’s fine to think you are getting somewhere, but are we actually realizing the results? I think you need strong people professionals around you. A great CHRO is key to understanding the culture we are trying to build and ensuring we bring in people who not only have the experience but can fit into the culture. I don’t mind debate and disagreement, but everyone has to share our values to operate in our firm.
Our product team is incredibly important. I think we have one of the best product teams, with people who can see the big picture and focus on the essentials. We’ve built a phenomenal team. Our Chief Product Officer has excellent peripheral vision and can narrow things down to the key priorities. We focus heavily on product-driven platforms. Our CTO brings deep experience in transforming financial services and is now doing the same in insurance. We’re aligned in the belief that bringing transparency and making it easier for people to do business leads to more engagement.
Most people with life insurance don’t even know where their policy is. They’ve shoved it in a drawer and forgotten about it. It doesn’t appear on your bank or wealth statement. People don’t trust what they can’t see or feel. So much of our technology, design, and product work is about creating transparency in the market.
Adam: What are the keys to leading a data-driven business?
Michele: You have to be a great, active listener the whole time. To me, no ideas are terrible ideas. There are always nuggets in what people bring that are worth listening to and that we try to build into something new. Active listening is really key. People who don’t actively listen don’t generally become great business leaders. I also think you need to be willing to have your mind changed. We are in a fast-moving market, and data brings new ideas while quickly disproving old ones. I look for people like that, and I look for people who will work together. I always say that one person can do something, 10 people can do more, and 3,000 people can accomplish even more. Bringing people together with diverse skills, ideas, and experiences allows for much greater outcomes.
You have to lead by example. We can’t lead data-driven or technology-driven businesses if we live in the past and don’t adopt those technologies ourselves. Right now, we’re looking at a lot of new health benefits and products that will change how things are underwritten. The idea of longevity is also central. You have to lead from the front. I’ve been in banking, technology, and now insurance. People only want to follow you if you lead by example, listen, bring in many ideas, and create a culture where people collaborate and innovate together.
Adam: How is AI transforming your role as a leader? And what do leaders need to know about AI?
Michele: For me, it’s making things easier: easier to communicate, easier to educate yourself, and easier to collaborate. It doesn’t replace human interaction, but it supports all the things I just mentioned. It helps you get to the point where you can start applying your experience and judgment more effectively. I’ve seen incredible progress just in the last several months. I don’t go into a client meeting now without asking ChatGPT for the latest information about the CEO, the company, or the industry.
One of my kids went to an interview, and I told them to look at what’s affecting the company. They were interviewing with KPMG, so I said, look at what the government is saying and doing around consulting, audit, and tax. That kind of insight is now accessible to everyone. You are getting PhD-level information in concise, usable forms. If you think it through properly, it really helps. So yes, AI makes life easier.
If your job has involved doing the same thing over and over, it’s going to be tougher. The mundane is being automated, but I believe that will be replaced with higher-order work for humans. I’ve seen it over the past 25 years. When you remove routine work, there’s always more work to do. It’s usually more exciting. But you have to be open-minded and flexible because things are changing quickly.
Adam: How can leaders most effectively leverage AI?
Michele: They have to be open-minded. I was at a panel this morning where people talked about thinking big and small. Leaders need to be open to daily changes, as well as broader shifts that can affect their industry or business. Great leaders must keep their eyes on both and empower their organizations to use AI.
We operate in a highly regulated industry, so we must be careful, especially with client data. You need the right guardrails, but you also can’t stay stuck in the past. Last year, we used AI to interpret calls coming into our call center. It didn’t replace many roles, but it made the center more effective. Now we know, for example, that 50 percent of callers are asking about one thing and 20 percent about another. So we can offer that option immediately instead of having people wait to speak with an agent. That makes engagement more efficient and more effective.
Adam: You lead a business that is focused on optimizing the customer experience. What are the keys to customer centricity?
Michele: You have to put the customer at the heart of everything and think about how they will interpret every part of their experience. We serve insurers by helping them build and originate product through technology. Then we work with distributors, everything from direct-to-consumer channels to banks and marketing organizations, and then ultimately the consumer.
We believe that by simplifying the experience, people will engage better. If the products are described clearly and the platform is easy to use, trust builds. At the core of that is consistent data. One of the most frustrating things is starting with one piece of data and having it change through every stage of the process until it’s unrecognizable. That was the case in insurance until recently, and it was the same in financial services 15 years ago.
Once getting and reconciling the right data is no longer your biggest challenge, you can focus on showing up for your customers. Products can become lifelong tools. People used to think about living 30 more years. Now, with longevity, it could be 40. They need the right amount of protection and liquidity. If you are truly customer-centric, you are giving people accessible, understandable information and building trust through the platform.
Adam: How, as a leader, can you foster innovation?
Michele: Let people run with things. I try to let conversations run and bring different voices into the room. When we evaluate talent, we use a silent time box exercise, which has been incredibly effective. It gives quieter people a chance to share their thoughts, not just the loudest ones.
You can innovate in how you develop talent and in the products you build. But the most important thing is active listening and allowing for more diverse voices. I’ve focused this year on storytelling, telling stories that resonate with everyone, from new grads to CEOs. If you can tell a story well, people understand your direction and decide whether they want to be part of it, whether they are employees, customers, or investors.
Adam: How, as a leader, can you empower the people in your organization who might not be as inclined to speak up to have their voices come to the forefront?
Michele: It’s so important, and I would say it’s something I’ve gotten a lot better at as I’ve gotten older. I like to listen. I like to invite people into discussions, especially if I haven’t heard from someone who I know has thoughts on the topic. I pay attention to people’s faces in meetings. We try to meet in person as much as possible. We do offer flexibility, but most people in my office come in five days a week because we love whiteboarding. When I look around the room, I can often see when someone wants to say something but doesn’t know how to jump in. The leaders in the room have to encourage those voices.
Every Friday, I write a message to the entire organization on Slack. I think about the kind of messaging I’m putting out: celebrating wins, celebrating people, encouraging different calls to action. When you lead that way, other people start to lead that way too, or at least that’s my hope.
Some people are very quiet, so creating that environment is critical. I’ve seen leaders grow in confidence to the point where they consistently speak up. We have a new customer with us here at Milken this year, and one of our product leaders, not the sales or revenue person, was key to making the deal happen. I can’t wait to go back and tell him the impact he had. Feedback is also hugely important. When I give feedback, I see it empowers people and encourages them to lean in more. Sometimes you give it privately, but feedback helps people work more effectively.
We recently opened a new office in Hyderabad, India, and I received over 200 direct Slack messages from the team telling me how productive they now feel and how much they appreciate the environment. That made my week. There are around 300 people in that office, and I’ve heard from almost all of them. Responding to 300 messages isn’t easy, but even a short reply like “Thanks for the feedback” or “Thanks for leaning in” makes a big difference.
Culturally, we are bringing people together across continents. My team in India doesn’t always feel as comfortable being vocal, but they are extremely capable. When you ask for their opinion, they will always offer it. You just need to create an environment where they feel invited to speak up and where feedback goes both ways.
We’ve also talked a lot about how to keep people current in a fast-changing environment. We have several core locations in India and in North America, and it’s hard to communicate with everyone at once. So we’re exploring short monthly video updates, 15 minutes from me, from the Chief Product Officer, from the Chief Technology Officer, just to keep everyone aligned. I can’t make people engage, but I can at least bring the information to them.
Adam: How can leaders lead people, teams, and organizations through change?
Michele: They need to have fantastic people underneath them. You can’t do it all on your own. I learned that many years ago. You need people who will go to the top of the hill with you and help drive change. You have to make people feel comfortable, and the only way to do that is to over-communicate. I’m radically transparent about how I think. Not everyone likes that, but transparency is crucial for effective change.
You also need the right values. Ours are: be bold, team up, and deliver value. They’re simple, people understand them, and we celebrate those who live them. If someone doesn’t operate that way, we ask them to change. Leading through change means being clear about the outcomes you’re looking for and then giving people the tools to take accountability and lead their teams. You cannot run a great organization without great people.
We sometimes joke that some people are great at delegating up. That’s not how it works. When someone hands you the baton, you have to run with it. We talk about that a lot. Some people thrive in a high-paced, changing environment. Others may say it’s not for them. There’s room for different styles, but everyone has to take accountability. Extreme ownership delivers results.
Recently, I wrote to the entire organization in one of my Friday messages because we had a client service issue. A customer emailed us to say they had lost a client because we didn’t respond quickly enough. That crushed me. I told the team that I expect everyone to respond within 24 hours. We have committed to simplifying insurance, and that includes how we engage with people. That also means being clear in my own communication and holding ourselves accountable.
Adam: What are your best tips on the topic of risk management?
Michele: Everyone in my firm is a risk manager. That’s essential in our industry. You have to constantly think about what risks you’re introducing and reducing. You need to put yourself in the customer’s shoes. How could they interpret this? Are they getting the right information to make the right decisions? Risk management is one of the hardest things to do well.
I learned that when I was running operations at UBS during the financial crisis. I learned more about managing liquidity risk in two weeks than I did in the ten years before. In tough times, you learn the most. It’s my responsibility to share those lessons so we can all manage risk more effectively.
I don’t believe risk belongs to just one team. Of course, you need audit and checks and balances. We have a great audit leader now. But in our firm, risk is everyone’s job, not just one function or leader.
Adam: Do you have any other tips on managing risk?
Michele: You need to understand it, and if you think you’ve solved for it, you need to test it. It’s one thing to put a solution in place, but if you don’t test it effectively, you might end up with unpleasant surprises later.
We operate in a very complex industry. It’s not highly automated, which is why I love it. We’re not looking to disrupt for disruption’s sake, but to transform a very manual system that hasn’t delivered the experience customers want. That’s what excites me about leading through this transformation. But it comes with a lot of risk, and you have to always keep that front of mind.
Adam: Thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for the fun conversation.
Michele: It was a great conversation. And I’ll leave you with one thing, which is you need to have joy in what you do. That’s something I’ve come to appreciate more as my career has progressed. If you’re not enjoying your work, find something you do enjoy. Whether you’re already in my organization or not, if you’re not having fun and don’t find joy in the work, it’s time to move on.
Adam: How do you assess whether you’re truly enjoying your work?
Michele: If you don’t feel passion for the outcomes you’re working toward, you’re not enjoying it. I actually enjoy the problem we’re trying to solve and the opportunity we have. I wake up every day excited and happy to do it all again.
Work doesn’t have to be everything, but once you figure out what it means for you, you need to make sure you enjoy it. The world is changing, and the face of work will evolve a lot in the next five years. Now is a good time to reflect. Not enough time is spent reflecting.
I like jogging because it forces me to focus on not falling over or getting hit by a car. It’s a good time to think. You can’t concentrate on too much else. That space to think helps you decide what difference you want to make, what matters to you, and how you can contribute. If you feel productive and aligned with the goals, whether industry-wide, about humanity, health, or something else, if you feel no passion for the work, you’re likely in the wrong field. If you’re not excited about it, you probably won’t be great at it.
