I recently interviewed Mike Mussallem on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is the leader of a business with a market cap in excess of $70 billion. Mike Mussallem is the CEO of Edwards Lifesciences, the company he has led since its inception more than two decades ago. Mike, thank you for joining us.

Mike: Hi, it's my pleasure to be here.

Adam: You grew up in Gary, Indiana in a working-class household, parents born to Lebanese immigrants, an older brother who had Down syndrome at a time when Down syndrome was deeply stigmatized. You worked in the steel mills to pay your way through college. How did your upbringing shape your worldview and the trajectory of your success?

Mike: You know what, it's had a huge impact on my life. And I don't, I don't look at it in terms of “poor me” because all those experiences were very rich experiences and helped make me a better person in many ways. So my parents are very, very proud people and their whole attitude was to try and give their children a better life, and they work their heads off to do that. You can imagine when their first child was born with Down syndrome, it was a really big blow. It was a blow to them. People were not very thoughtful about what that meant back then. A lot of times, the thought was that those Downs children would be put away into some kind of a home, and so forth. And my parents, I'm sure, after working through whatever emotional challenges there were, just decided that they were going to build a great family anyway. And so I was one of three boys. My older brother, George, was always the special guy in the house. And it turned out to truly be a gift to me, because, talk about a source of love. Here's somebody who just would unconditionally love you at all times. I love you came up every single day it was, it was incredible. He was obviously a very slow learner and had to work very hard for everything that he accomplished. And in his life, he learned to read and to write and to handle money and to get a job. And I say to myself, for him to accomplish the things that he has, it's been greater than any of the accomplishments that I achieved in my own life. And then I also saw the behavior of my parents; my mother, who was a professional woman really gave up her career and her life to raise my brother George and organized other parents in our area who had also had Downs children to form an association and then social circles and a workshop and one thing led to another, and really created a wonderful community for all those folks. And so I just learned so much from that. And even, you know, it continues to impact me to this day, because, you know, when you see somebody that maybe doesn't have all the same opportunities that you have, or whatever set of circumstances, I'm very open minded about who they are, where they came from, and why they deserve respect. It shapes how I think and manage today.

Adam: It’s really all about the power of perspective.

Mike: Well said, it really does shape your perspective. And, you know, when I see others that pull themselves up one way or another, or some that just take advantage of those that are weaker than them… you can't help but think back to your own set of circumstances and say, you know what? I think I know what I'm thinking and I know what to do.

Adam: Absolutely. And I want to ask you more about the set of circumstances that you encountered as you were coming up in your career. You studied chemical engineering in college and spent the early years of your career working as an engineer making antifreeze. Why and how did you transition from a career as an engineer to a career in business and management? And what were the key skills that you developed that allowed you to rise within your career and ultimately get appointed as CEO?

Mike: Probably when I chose my degree to pursue chemical engineering in college. I was still very young, I didn't really know what I liked and what I wanted to do with my life. I liked chemistry, I liked math. So it all made sense to me at the time. And I was very deep in that, oh, boy, I heard those chemical engineers make a lot of money. And so I was motivated by much more shallow ambitions back then. And yeah, I was actually making Presto and antifreeze. And, you know, it was a challenging job, my very first job, I was actually a Production Supervisor supervising a whole large group of mostly women my mother's age. And so I learned very early on that you don't tell people what to do. When you're the boss, you ask them if they'd like to join you on a journey. And I saw lots of great experiences. But I was doing that for a few years, it just didn't feel that rewarding or that challenging to me. And I got exposed to some people who are working in medical technology. And that had a big impact. I mean, the idea that you could spend your career and that your life's work would actually go into helping people and helping people have healthier and better lives. That had a certain attraction. And so I made the switch after about five years. And, boy, am I glad I did. It's had a huge impact on my life.

Adam: Can you talk about the skills that you developed as you arose within your career, as you're shifting from an engineer making products to a business leader managing teams? What skills did you develop? What are the skills that listeners of this podcast are interested in building leading managing teams should focus on developing?

Mike: I mostly learned by doing. Yes, I worked on an MBA and actually didn't finish it because I switched and went into medical technology. And that didn't transfer over. But I started doing jobs. And when I did the job, I always tried my best to do the best job that I could and also to understand my boss and how my boss thought about their job. And I found that sort of mind-expanding, it helped me grow. I got an opportunity to move from manufacturing into, actually, R&D. So product development, if you will, because there was a notion back then, boy, none of these products that we're designing for patients? No one's really thought about them from a manufacturing perspective, we need to get some manufacturing guys in R&D. And so that started actually a string of events. For me, that turned out to be extraordinarily helpful. You know, when you're the manufacturing guy in R&D, you get the lowest-performing product line, because they sure weren't going to give you anything very important to do. And it became almost a signpost for my career. I often took on sort of the dirty jobs, the jobs that weren't so popular, the jobs that weren't so important. And it was a chance for somebody who was younger or less experienced, to get a pretty big responsibility. And it was a little bit of an attitude like, wow, it's got no place to go but up. Let's give it a try. And I found that, you know, if you assembled a team of people that were good people that cared, and you could have a common goal together. And you really thought deeply about the problems ahead and approached it strategically, and you spoke honestly about the amazing things that could be accomplished. And I was fortunate to be working in Baxter and I was there for about 20 years. And it was quite a meritocracy. It was a place that if you got something done, they gave you more to do. And so I had a chance to move from one job to another and actually really grow in that process. And it's the diversity of jobs that I had, I think, that really helped me and shaped me to have kind of a broader perspective. And I learned something about myself as well. You know, when you're growing up, you don't really know what you like and what you love. And, you know, I found that I probably wasn't the guy to be a really deep specialist, that I was probably more of a generalist, one that enjoyed trying to see the whole playing field and integrate all the pieces together in a harmonious fashion. And that suited me better than trying to be a deep expert in one field. And you know, both of those are so important but learning about yourself and becoming self-aware about what you're good at and what you're interested in was also important in shaping me and and helping me understand that I was probably going to be a better General Manager than I was a R&D specialist,

Adam: There is so much there that I love and that I want to highlight for listeners the importance of pushing your comfort zone, the importance of volunteering for new assignments, taking on new projects, being open-minded to discovering new opportunities and understanding that there might be things out there that you don't even know that you love. But if you're willing to try new things, you might stumble upon something that you both love and that you're really good at. And to your point, it starts with self-awareness, it starts with understanding who you are, understanding your strengths, understanding your weaknesses, and it ends with going out there and being willing to put yourself out there and take chances.

Mike: Yeah, very well said. The idea of taking some chances and, and trying, to some extent, not just being fearless to the point of being reckless. But being fearless in the willingness to take on new assignments and, and new jobs that were going to stretch you. And then we're beyond what you are capable of and know that you would have to learn and you couldn't be successful without learning from others. And having a team around you became really important. And boy, you really grow through those experiences. And you also have to admit growth through your own failures. This idea that we talk about a lot these days within Edwards, it's part of our secret sauce, to acknowledge that whenever you reach high, whenever you dream big, that failure is definitely part of that equation. And having a willingness to own those failures and learn from your failures and adjust is a key part of growing. I end up getting a lot of credit these days for the things that went well, and less credit for all the things that didn't go so well. But trust me, there were plenty along the way.

Adam: That's a topic that I would love to dive into. I would love to dive into the topic of failure. I would love to dive into the topic of how do you build a culture that fuels innovation? One of the early guests on 30 Minute Mentors was Trip Hawkins, who was the founder of Electronic Arts. And there's a parallel and I asked Tripp, how do you deal with massive failure? Because in the video game industry, you could spend $200 million on a game that goes completely bust. And his response was that it's essentially the cost of doing business. If you want to innovate, you have to understand that failing is okay. And you lead a similar type of business, and that you can invest very heavily in R&D. And it can go nowhere. And I wanted to ask you, if you could talk a little bit more about how you approach failure, how that relates to how you have been so successful as a leader in creating this culture that has driven all these highly innovative products?

Mike: You said it right, it really is culture. That is a key element of that, of course, in our business decisions that we make every day, you know, allocating certain amount of resources fully knowing that some things are going to fail becomes part of the price of admission, but having a culture where somebody can feel like, you know what? I really can reach high. And if I fall short, I'm not going to be punished for losing or being wrong. You know, early on in my career, we would work so hard to make these big management presentations, the sale while we've got this bold idea, it's good to work. And we put so much effort into getting the sale. And then once the project was approved, and you started working on it, sure enough, it didn't work the way you thought it was going to work. And then rather than raising your hand and acknowledging the failure, you would stay with it too long. And then it turned into a catastrophic failure. And then it became part of your brand. And, you know, I just decided early on that there had to be a better way. And this idea of acknowledging, if you're going to reach high, if you're really going to innovate, if you're going to do something no one has ever done before, the odds of you being wrong are pretty high. And having a culture where it's okay to say you know, I really believe this is gonna work and then later on come back and say, I was wrong. It didn't work, but I have an idea and if I can make this adjustment, I think I can make it work and to have honest adult conversations about that without punishing and acknowledging that an honest mistake is a good mistake. And sincerely learning from those failures becomes the key to truly innovating. Most of the great innovations that we've been part of have had a road that's been littered with failures along the way. And teams that adjust to finding a way through it. And they've been incredibly resourceful and one innovation led to another. If you encounter a failure, and you give up and you are punished, then you could imagine, you're not going to have a very innovative culture, not a very innovative climate. And it's one of the key things that we talk a lot about, okay, what happens if it doesn't work? How are we going to treat that team? How are we going to treat that individual? What message are we sending to others that we'd like to reach high? And if you don't have one that sort of acknowledges failure, then you're going to have people take very small leaps. They'll just reach a little bit for a tiny innovation, instead of a big bold one that had the potential in our case to change the practice of medicine.

Adam: Can you share an example of a failure that directly led to a breakthrough success?

Mike: Well, one of the things that Edwards Lifesciences is most known for is being able to replace a heart valve through a catheter. So a small catheter is introduced in an artery in the leg that could actually replace a heart valve while your heart is beating in under an hour. That was a very, very challenging journey. And along the way, we had a lot of struggles. And when we first tried to bring it to the US with a feasibility study, we had had some reasonable success in Europe, and there have been a couple of cardiologists in France that have been able to do it on a pretty repeated basis. But when we tried to bring it to some of the best centers in the US, we had early failures where patients didn't survive. This was amongst the first 10 patients, and it caused the FDA to stop the trial and for us to assess, should we continue on at all? But we had some resourceful engineers and some great partnerships with doctors. And one of them had this bright idea that, you know, I think if we come in through a different artery, as opposed to a vein that we could make this approach work, and it could change everything. And sure enough, we persisted, we tried it. And at this point, we perfected it to the point where it is an extraordinarily safe and effective procedure

Adam: Mike, so much of what you've talked about centered around building a culture that fuels innovation and that values the contributions of the individuals within your organization. Hiring the right people is essential to making that happen. What do you look for in the people who you hire? And what are your best tips on the topic of hiring?

Mike: Sure, it's such an important point. And I can tell you that I dedicate a lot of my time to talent within Edwards Lifesciences. And I fully recognize that if we have the right people in the right job, great things happen. And if we get that wrong, it's just not possible. And it's so dynamic, it can be fine today, and then needs adjustment tomorrow, because everybody is growing at their own rate and the needs of the business are constantly changing. So paying a lot of attention to getting talent just right, I think, is the highest return, highest leverage item that we can spend our time on. It's natural when somebody is thinking about hiring to look at the technical skills of the individual. And don't get me wrong, that is really important. If it was a software engineer or an accountant or you can name the background, it would be great to see deep expertise there. But for us, that becomes the beginning of the search process, not the end of it. Being able to fit in our culture, to have somebody embrace some of those things that we think are so important to where we are so people that could truly get in touch with this idea that patients come first and if we're always doing the best thing for people we're going to have a successful business, people willing to dream big, to welcome surprises, to own their failures, to seek diverse perspectives, all these kind of attributes become critical to us, when we're looking to hire when we get that, right. It's a beautiful thing. And then people are able to be in an environment where they can be their best. And at the same time, we're the beneficiaries of having that incredible talent dedicated to what we're trying to get done.

Adam: Mike, when you were named CEO of Edwards, back in 2000, it had just become an independently traded public company. And at the time, it was the poorest performing unit within Baxter, $550 million in debt, and a net value of roughly $230 million. Today, Edwards is valued north of $70 billion. How did you lead Edwards to $70 billion of value creation? What were the key leadership lessons that you have learned along the way?

Mike: Yeah, well, thanks for that, I still can't believe it, sometimes, myself. I can tell you I dreamed big. We all did back then. But I probably didn't dream this big. And so part of it is actually giving yourself a chance to do something important. It wasn't a straight line, Adam, we consistently improved. But you know, the growth often comes in spurts in ways that are unpredictable. It started out by trying to assemble a team of like-minded leaders and individuals and having a common goal. And we ask people to please behave like an owner, not like an employee, and we add an owner's manual instead of an employee handbook. And we started along our way. And we were also honest about the fact that we weren't a good performer and we were going to have to make a number of changes. And that was going to mean divesting some businesses, and going through some tough times, before things got better. But we laid out what we called our aspirations, like what were our dreams of what we were going to turn into. And with that idea of it was the way to lift people up for them to see the future without really overpromising. And so little by little, we made improvements. And we got out of those things that we thought did not have a bright future, we started trying things that we thought could have bright futures, every time we had a few extra dollars, we would put it into R&D, and gradually increase the amount that we were investing in innovation over time. And at the same time, we searched around for people, about what would be most exciting, what could be the most important thing that we could do in healthcare. And we listened to a lot of consultants, and we did a lot of blue ocean exercises, but ultimately decided that close to home, the patients that we were already serving, were underserved. And if we just improved life for them, then we didn't need to diversify the company. And so over time, a couple things happen. One is we found the importance of patient focus. And two is we found the importance of focusing close to home and structure heart disease and Critical Care Medicine. And those two things were the key ingredients to make it happen. You go into it and you're kind of idealistic and say, Boy, can I build a company that, you know, customers love and employees want to work at, and investors love to own and all that and you want to believe that you can do that. But you almost feel a little bit naive. What we learned along the way is if we just focus on patients, and we know that that's our life's work, and if we constantly are making patients’ lives better, that we're probably making good decisions, regardless of what job you have in the company. It was an incredible unifier. And it brought us to a common culture. And then the other element was for us just to stay focused, and those patient groups that we knew best. And we aggressively innovated and not that small innovations, but big bold innovations. Those were the ingredients that got us to where we are today.

Adam: To highlight some important lessons that you shared; there's no linear path to success. Don't be afraid to invest in your ideas. Find the right customer. And when you do, focus on your customer. So much of what you shared is to create a customer-centric business.

Mike: Yeah, it's well said and we have a certain privilege here at Edwards Lifesciences. Our key customers tend to be those in the medical community and physicians, but their customer is the patient. And so we try to stay focused on those patients knowing that that's the ultimate beneficiary for us. And it allows us to attract some pretty wonderful people, people that, you know, not only are brilliant and hard-working, and trust me, what we do at Edwards is very hard, and it's very challenging. But the chance that they can have an impact on patients’ lives, is something that just motivates our employees every day. And it's what turns them on, and makes them want to do all that hard work that's necessary to make this happen.

Adam: Mike, what do you believe are the key characteristics of an effective leader? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Mike: Yeah, it's a good question. There's so much written on the subject. And, you know, I don't consider myself a leadership guru. But I certainly have learned through my own career, that a lot of it is not so much focusing on yourself, but focusing on others. There's a lot that we can each do as individuals, but we can do so much more as a team. And the idea of making people around you better, and helping people around you be their best is one of the things that is so valuable. I feel like there's long memories in our business and in all businesses, and you're going to encounter people again and again, over your life. And people know who you are probably better than you're aware, you might think that you're fooling people, but very rarely are you and they can see through that and know what your true intentions are. And if you're really trying to drive the common good and help others be successful, I think it becomes a foundation for having a strong organization that performs at a high level.

Adam: I could not agree with you more. And you spoke about the importance of focusing on others. I want to ask you about something that you've been able to accomplish, which is quite unique. You've been the CEO of Edwards for more than two decades, the average length of an NFL career is 3.3 years, and the average CEO tenure isn't that much longer than that. What is the secret to your longevity? And how do you avoid burnout? How have you been able to do it? And what have you learned that's applicable to anyone listening to this conversation, regardless of where they are in their tenure in their career?

Mike: Yeah, you're right, I'm well beyond the half-life of CEOs. And it makes me smile when I think about it. But you know, Edwards has changed a lot over that time. It's not like I've been doing the same thing all these years. And fortunately, I've grown a lot and expanded my own horizons and like to think I've become more capable myself and as a leader over that time, but the thing that I think about most is you need to love, I mean, truly love what you do. And I have a passion for what we do. If just getting excited about being able to help patients and change the practice of medicine is so energizing, one of the things that you clearly have to do is to figure out that you don't have it all figured out. And to stay truly curious, and be willing to continue to reach and take those risks on trying to do things better than we ever have in the past. And I like to say always keep our eyes forward, it's tempting sometimes to look backwards, and to either pat yourself on the back or get depressed about it or whatever. And I think it's helpful to have a short memory and always stay focused on the future and what we might do next. And so it brings me a lot of energy. When I look ahead now, I probably have more energy about what the future of Edwards Lifesciences might hold than I've ever had over my 21 years here.

Adam: Well, what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Mike: I think this combination- and it's an interesting balance to kind of strike. Obviously staying humble about who you are and what you're capable of. And recognizing that others also have great capability is important, but also just having that courage to reach and to dream big and to allow yourself to dream so big that you're going to do something special is a gift to yourself and then not punish yourself if it doesn't go just exactly how you plan because it starts with a big dream. And it's amazing what an individual can do. If they put their mind to it- and they should never, they should never look at the future and never look at their own situation and discount their chances. Anybody can do it. If my career didn't prove that, nobody's would.

Adam: Mike, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being part of Thirty Minute Mentors

Mike: Yeah, thank you, Adam.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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