Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Basketball Legend Muggsy Bogues

I recently interviewed Basketball legend Muggsy Bogueson my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a basketball legend and at five foot three is the shortest player in the history of the NBA. Muggsy Bogues was an NBA fan favorite playing for four teams over 14 seasons and setting the Charlotte Hornets franchise record for steals and assists along the way. Muggsy, thank you for joining us.

Muggsy: Appreciate you having me. Thank you.

Adam: You grew up in the projects in Baltimore and your childhood was pretty rough to say the least. At age five, you were hospitalized after getting hit by a stray buckshot. When you were a kid, you actually witnessed a man getting beaten to death. Your dad spent time in prison. Your brother struggled with drug addiction. Can you take listeners back to those days? What early experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

Muggsy: Well, I was just like a kid that was faced with circumstances as I came into this world, not knowing what those circumstances were until you got a certain age. And at the age of five years old, as you alluded to, I was at the wrong place at the wrong time. My fight had broken. My mom and dad thought I was in the house, but I was outside being nosy, and one of the gentlemen owners who had a store there, Old Manchester, they took a rock and threw it at his window and shattered his window. And he came out, seemingly mad, ran straight to his shed, and grabbed his double-barreled shotgun. And all the kids in the neighborhood who was around it, we just started running. And then he just grabbed his double barrel shotgun and just started shooting. And unfortunately for me, I got hit with the buck shots. But after I recovered from those buck shots, I think it gave me a sense of I didn't care anymore about what folks thought of who I was or what I was in terms of how short I was, because I wanted to play the game of basketball. But that was a traumatic experience to go through at that age. But I always say, at this age now, I am thankful fortunate that the fortunate and unfortunate happened to me because the unfortunate that I was at the wrong place at the wrong time, and the fortunate is that maybe it triggers something in my mind where allow me to not care about what folks think about me anymore and allow me to stay on my path and stay and believe with God has instilled in me that special gift that I was able to reach it and understand what it was and not let someone take that special gift away from me because of the words they were saying to me. And that's the blessing that I was fortunate enough to have going through it. And at the time, you were a kid. And as you're growing up, things happen in your life and in your family life, and witnessing your pops getting put in prison at the age of 12 years old, that can be challenging. Because, at the time, my mom only had an 11th-grade education. And seeing her, witnessing her, had to go back to night school to now take care of four kids, and not knowing what that all entails, that was something that I witnessed and always stayed in the back of my mind and said that one day, hopefully, I could be in a position where I can be able to reward my mom for all the things that she's done for us. That was Lafayette Projects growing up in the inner city and having siblings, as you mentioned, my brother Chucky, who was the oldest. going through his trials and his tribulations with drugs. But that was the atmosphere. That was what we were faced with. Life expectancy wasn't even thought past 20 years old. So that was the mindset. That was what we were faced with. That was the adversity that we had to go through. But as we sit here today, we say we never would change anything because it was all meant to be for us to be faced with that type of adversity. To understand how to appreciate the things to work extremely hard that you can get whatever you want as long as you put the time and effort in it and your dreams and vision will come true behind hard work we were those types of individuals who worked hard for what we got regardless of what the circumstances were.

Adam: As you reflect on the adversity that you face which is a level of adversity that is as intense, if not more intense, than any of us will ever face. What advice do you have for anyone listening to this conversation on how to overcome the obstacles that they face, how to overcome the challenges that they face, how to overcome the self-doubt that you were able to push past and blow past to ultimately become a star in the NBA and ultimately a successful person in life?

Muggsy: First and foremost, it starts with you. It starts within. You know, you got to look in that mirror and not just like it. You got to love that reflection because that's what God had created. Once you understand you're the one that's in control, then you could go on your journey. You go on your path. You go start believing the thing that you have in your head. Then you start putting actions behind it. Because people always will tell you who you could be, who you should be. But you're the only one that knows who you want to be. And when you understand that, and you know that you're the one that has these visions in your head, and you know the dreams that you have, you're the only one that can make it come true for yourself. No one is going to make it happen for you because they don't know what's happening in your head. They don't know what you want. You're the only one that knows and understands your dreams and your passion so by putting those actions behind it, and I always say when you do it don't get bored with it, it could be simple. But it can be redundant and redundant become precise. And then all of a sudden you realize you're closer to that reality that you've been thinking and dreaming about for so long that it become such a part of your life. That vision, I would say redundant becomes precise, but people will always try to derail you and distract you from accomplishing your goals. Miserable people, they always left the company. And I feel that you give them that power, that energy when you start believing the things they will say to you negatively. And if you have the most self-esteem, self-driven, and self-confidence, then luckily that I was able to find it. Because at my stage, at a size 5'3", playing in the big world, where people always just thought, and coaches always wanted big guards, I could have really easily just believed that and just committed to it and went back to believing that's all that can impact and affect this game. I didn't see it that way. I saw it totally different. I didn't give in. I saw another avenue where I looked at the game could be impactful just about if whoever had the ability to do it. If a 6'9 guy could do it his way, maybe a 5'3 guy could do it his way as well. It can have the same type of impact, but it may be different, but the same way. And having an understanding, knowing what you have to do, you got to know yourself. I knew I couldn't play the game the same way as Magic Johnson had to play the game in order to be successful or to get looked upon as reached as serious as that position called for running a team. Having that understanding that I knew that I had to play it differently to impact it. knowing what it all entails. I knew that the responsibility for a point guard, that he had to run his team, he had to make everybody around him successful, knowing what their strengths and weaknesses are. Being the extension of the coach, understanding how to control the tempo of the game, how to impact the opponent, and knowing what they have to do. And for me, I say, okay, I'm gonna go at the head of the snake, the point guard. If I can make it difficult for him, then it's going to be difficult for the other individuals that surround them to get into there because they are relying on this individual to be able to put them in a position to be successful. So having that understanding, me knowing that, so whoever listening, hopefully, you understand what the strengths and weaknesses are, whatever that goal you're trying to reach, whatever that task that you have at that particular time. You got to understand what that is and how to impact it the way you know how to impact it and bring in your talent and your strength and less the weaknesses towards the forefront to where you can become that successful person that you're striving to be. I always say it starts within. You should start with the actions behind it and the belief that it will come to fruition.

Adam: Muggsy, I love it. You shared so much there that is applicable to anyone listening, regardless of whether you want to play in the NBA or want to achieve any kind of success in any aspect of life. Don't be afraid to challenge the status quo. Just because things are done a certain way doesn't mean that that's the only way that they can get done. Embrace your strengths. It wasn't really hard for you to realize that I'm never going to be Magic Johnson, but I have strengths that I can bring to the table that Magic Johnson doesn't have. What are my unique gifts? What are my unique talents? And how can I leverage those to become a great basketball player? And for anyone listening, what are my unique gifts? What are my unique What are my unique talents that I can bring to the table that will allow me to become successful in whatever it is that I want to pursue personally or professionally? And in your case, you weren't a six foot nine point center. You weren't going to dominate in the post and run the game the way Magic was going to run it. You had a level of quickness and explosiveness and everything else you shared being the floor general, being an extension of your coach, doing the things that you could do, owning the things that you could control that were completely independent of whatever size you were given.

Muggsy: Absolutely. And then when one realized that you can try to be someone else, you don't have to do it the way they did it. Knowing you and knowing what your strength is and knowing your skill set and what you bring to the table is quite enough as long as you realize what that is and how you're able to apply it. Sometimes we have that old mantra type of mentality. We have to wait for someone else to believe in us before we believe in ourselves. and we want to reverse that. We want to always have that understanding that you're the one that's in control. You're the one that has that confidence, that self-belief that you can be whatever you want to be. It's just a matter of you believing it and going out and putting the action behind it because it's just that simple. The more you're able to continue to put that energy and effort behind, I don't know how long it may take, but I guarantee you, it will be better than where it started. Your information, the knowledge, the craft, the project, whatever you are working on, it will be much better because you have given it and prepared yourself for it to be as good as you want it to be. And whatever that case may be, it's just a matter that you stand on that path and that journey and not giving up. Because I always say when we fall, that's life. But as we get back up, that's living. Because when you're out of your comfort zone, that's when a character's really being tested. And then when you go out and you realize, sometimes you don't realize how good we are, because we're afraid to walk through that door and see what's on the other side. But we also make sure that we prepare ourselves, so we also know, once we get on that other side, that we're ready for whatever takes place. And that's something that we have to always continue to keep elevating ourself, keep believing who we are, keep make sure you manifest yourself because people always will try to change you to who you want to be, and always continue to keep coming back to it. Nobody knows who or what you want to be besides you.

Adam: And Mugsy, a key theme among all the advice that you're sharing is the importance of being a positive influence on others, something you shared early on. There are going to be people out there who have negative energy who are going to try to bring you down with them. Negative energy is contagious. All energy is contagious. Positive energy is contagious. If you're a positive person, if you show up every day and infuse positivity into your team, you're going to uplift the people around you. And when you were with the Charlotte Hornets, You were the clear leader of the team, even though you were the shortest person on the team at five foot three. Can you talk about your leadership journey? How did you become the clear leader of that team? And what was your approach to leadership?

Muggsy: Well, yeah, I mean, good players make themselves better. A great player make others better. And as a leader, I always understood the understanding of leadership. Very empathetic, understand where folks come from. I make sure that I know what makes them tick. We're also knowing them and I keep them accountable. We make sure we keep each other accountable. We also make sure that we understand what the vision is and the task at hand. But more importantly, understand that I'm grateful, the gratitude. that comes into play. So when I have those four pillars, leadership is always easy to lead because the guys respect me and what I'm trying to say or what we're trying to do, what the task is. We all understand what their game plan is and where it all starts. As I say, I was the extension of the coach and they respected what I was saying and what we were saying, and what we had to do. And knowing and trusting in them as they trusted in me that we all complimented each other. And like I said, I knew exactly when to give Alonzo the basketball as opposed to giving him the ball 18 feet away from the basket where he got to take 10 dribbles to get to the basket. That's my way of disservicing him as opposed to giving it to him where he could take four or five dribbles and still be more effective to where he has the ability to do and go around and do his thing. I'll be a disservice to get Dale the basketball where he's not in shooting range and that ain't much of the court because he's got type of shot where his range is soon as he crossed half court. So knowing where to give him the ball and knowing that strength and weaknesses, I knew that and they trusted in me to knowing that I will be able to deliver that in any given fashion. And that's how one gets to become a leader, because of the consistency that they continue to provide in terms of leading. And we don't pick and choose who we want to criticize when it comes to constructive criticism. And then also understanding that you can't talk to each and every one the same because everybody's totally different. Every personality is totally different. So I'm going to make sure that I understand that. That's where it comes into the first empathetic part, knowing who they are, what makes them tick. So you know how to communicate with one as opposed to communicating with another because it may not be the same way.

Adam: Mugsy, you really broke down so many of the keys to leading effectively. At the end of the day, at the heart of effective leadership is the ability to position every person on your team to succeed, to excel, to be their best selves. And the example that you gave of making sure that you got the ball in Alonzo Mourning's hand in the exact spot on the court where he could score. If you're getting him the ball at the three-point line, what good does that do for him? But if you're getting him the ball right by the basket, he's going to score. Same thing. Del Curry. I'm throwing the ball to you at your spot, where as soon as you catch the ball, you've got it. Just shoot it. You're going to score. I know you've got it. You don't even need to put the ball on the floor and dribble. Just put it up. It's going to be a basket.

Muggsy: Absolutely. And that's the connection that we had. And that's knowing what Del's capable of doing and what he loves doing. And he also knows that I like to get my assistance, too. So that was a hand-in-hand situation that we understood. But again, the quick release that he had, knowing that understanding of How to keep people with me and make them and allow them to be successful. That's just like any type of teammate, just like in the corporate world. Everybody has their own role. We may not talk about it on a day-to-day basis, but we understand that the ultimate task is that we want the bottom line to be as good as we want it to be. And we all understand how to be able to do that. You skillful in your area, I'm skillful in my area. And that chemistry allows us to be as one. And when you have that understanding as a leader. You're able to incentivize your team, and they will be able to continue to be themselves. So when they're themselves, then it's the best version for everybody as a whole, because you're getting the best out of them. And that's what you ultimately want, because as a leader, you allow people to be themselves, to bring their talent to the table in order for us to accomplish the goal that we set forth.

Adam: mugged a few other things that you shared, essential to effective leadership, empathy, effective communication, consistency, leading by example, something that you didn't say directly, but that is evident throughout every single thing that you're sharing, love of people, genuine love between you and your teammates. Leaders who deeply love the people who they are leading, leaders who deeply love people, are going to be that much more successful.

Muggsy: I mean, that's creating a culture. When you create that family culture atmosphere, then they feel that they understand that, and then that's when they give you all. Because it's a bond that you build with each other. It's just like teammates. It's the bond that you build with one another, the things that you go through. And as you go through it, you go through it together. And then when you come out on the successful side of it, that's a special treat. That's a special bond that you can't replace. That's why when those teams win championships, Pouring a champagne on their head, that's something that they remember for the rest of their lives. It's no different in the corporate world because that's the society, that's the tip of the pinnacle that you reach. And when you have that success amongst your colleagues and your peers, and you're doing it all, and everybody has a role in it. Man, it's nothing like it. It's nothing like, but it again, it starts with the leader, how he creates, how she creates that culture. And this is that family type of culture. That's everybody love to be around because everybody loves family atmosphere. Then that's when you have a win-win situation. And then that's where you get the best out of everyone. And that's nothing like it when you have That type of day-to-day when you get up and go to work, it's not even work anymore. It's something, a passion that you love going in to see your teammates, to see what we're able to do today, what we're able to accomplish today. And that's something that people love to do and love to be part of when they got that type of environment.

Adam: Who are the best teammates who you've played with and what is your definition of a great teammate?

Muggsy: I have so many. I have to start off with Moses Malone. One of my first teammates in Washington, when I got drafted with the Washington Bullets, him and Manute Bowe, Moses took me under his wing and gave me the ins and outs about the NBA, with how to stay focused, how to stay even-keeled, don't get caught up in with the papers and don't get caught up in what's being said. You just stay professional, keep working on your craft, and things will work out for the best for you. And having that understanding as a youngster and knowing that it's a business now and it ain't just basketball, that really played a lot on me and it really affected and really allowed me to finish out 14 successful season based on that understanding. Because then I became that mentor to the younger guys, like Larry Johnson, Lonzo Mourning, those guys. But those teammates, the Manute Bowles, Larry Johnson's, the Dale Curry's, the Lonzo Mourning, Kendall Gill, Johnny Newman, I go on Earl Curtin, Charles Oakley, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Alvin Williams, has so many great teammates and which to answer your question what makes them great teammates is because as what I said earlier, when you go through things together, you go through a war together, you have goals that you're trying to accomplish, and you accomplish them with these type of individuals, that's a special bond that you can't replace. And that's something that will carry over regardless if you're playing a game of basketball because you become family. And that's how it is. I became part of their family. They became part of my family. and our kids know each other, and they're part of their family. And that's a special bond that you have when you have those types of teammates when you play with those guys who had your back, who understood how to be professionals on and off the court because it was a lot of distractions that could derail you from being able to finish out 14 years. So having guys keeping you accountable, having guys making sure that you're OK on and off the court, checking on you, worrying about you, caring for you, like that. That's what made those guys the great teammates to have a play with.

Adam: You alluded to the importance of mentorship in your journey as a basketball player, talking about Moses Malone and Manute Ball as mentors when you broke into the NBA. You mentioned that you mentored a number of players when you became more senior as a member of the Charlotte Hornets. What are your best tips on the topic of mentorship?

Muggsy: Well, being a great mentor, that's something that you got to be willing to share and have that understanding that you want to give back. You want to make sure that folks don't make those same mistakes that you possibly made or prevent them from making mistakes that you've seen people previously do. And as a mentee, you just got to be accepted. You got to be willing to accept that, Hey, there's nothing wrong with listening to an OG or listen to somebody that been there and done it. and hopefully that it can prevent me from making some kind of stupid mistakes down the road. Especially the NBA is like a fancy life. And these guys, they're young when they come in, they come in with a lot of money for the first time, not knowing exactly what to expect and how to continue to maintain. So my advice to them is just make sure you're watching over your finances. Don't just take the, oh, it's okay, everything's fine, for granted. They're looking out for me because we all need to know what's coming in and also what's going out. make sure that you take care of your body, being respectful, and understanding that this is now is a job that you got to be able to service and provide on a day-to-day basis. It's not just every now and then. It's a day-to-day basis. And you're going to have to be able to serve them. And they need to be feeling like that it's in the same light that they brought you in because everybody's replaceable. And you got to make sure also that you stay away from the nonsense that's out there because that nonsense that's out there outside of basketball can also prevent you from playing basketball and those things always at the forefront of somebody else's agenda and maybe not yours. So those things that you got to always be careful with. I'm not saying not live your life, but you got to be aware. But these things that's out there because you're in a different bracket now and people are really talking to you for many reasons. Women, your friends, people now that thinking that you're at a different level, your cousins, your agents could not be on the up front. So it's a lot of things that you got to now start to think about as opposed to just playing basketball.

Adam: Someone who you mentored, someone who you've known his entire life. You actually babysat him, a guy by the name of Steph Curry. You've been around many of the greats, including Steph Curry. You competed against likely the greatest of all time, Michael Jordan. What makes the greats great?

Muggsy: Well, first and foremost, it's their mindset. Their relentlessness is their work ethic. It's they believe that they're the best at what they do. They go out there and put all the time and effort into it and bringing it and making it become a reality. Every little thing that gets under their skins, because that's something that they, it's a driving force. It's something that they believe that no one out there is as good as I am. And that's just the confidence that they have within themselves. And that's what they're supposed to believe. And that's what they're supposed to think. Because you never think or never believe you shouldn't that anybody is better than you, regardless of who you are. That's just who you should be. And that's the confidence. And that's not being egotistic. That's just being confidence within. As I said, look in that mirror, don't like it, love it. So having that within. These guys, they take it to another level because it's something that they constantly do, and there's no time limit on it. And it's no means of failure in a sense of wanting to be the GOAT or the villain. It's no such thing. They just going to always be who they always are. And they're going to try to be that winner like they always try to be.

Adam: Muggsy, what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Muggsy: For one, write it down, always see it, dream it, visualize it, and then go out and start putting action behind it. Start putting the action behind it because you can have it in your head, you can have it written down, but if you don't do anything about it, putting action behind it, it's going to be just stale. And it's going to be just there, continue to be looked in your face, look down to where you're wishing and hoping. You don't want to be that individual. You want to be a person of action. And when you continue to be the person of actions, normally your actions will always dictate the outcome. Because if you have that determination, regardless of, as we say, that adversity may strive As we navigate through it, as we persevere through it, once we come out on the other side, we always see that shiny star, that sunny, shiny light that's looking in our face because we came through that storm. But it's always got to be the actions behind the vision. Without the actions, the vision is just a vision. And I always say we got those doors, the dreamers, that say that the dreamers and the dreams, those that dream, the dreamers are the one that says, I'm going to do this. I want to be that. I'm going to be a doctor. I'm going to be a lawyer. And then you look up, and they doing nothing about it. They just going about their day. But then those who dream, they got the actions behind it. They out there working, studying, putting whatever it is, working on their game, whatever that task or that industry they're trying to pursue, they are putting forth 150% effort to try and make it become true. And as we continue to do that day to day to day, the closer we come to our reality. So that's what I would tell anyone out there, put the actions behind the vision.

Adam: Muggsy, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Muggsy: Oh, thank you for that man. Appreciate you, buddy.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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