I recently interviewed Pat Williams on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today spent more than 50 years in the NBA rooting for the NBA front office and co-founding an NBA franchise. Pat Williams is the co-founder of the Orlando Magic, the former general manager of the 1983 NBA champion Philadelphia 76ers and the recipient of the Basketball Hall of Fame John W. Been Lifetime Achievement Award. Pat, thank you for joining us,

Pat: Adam, nice to catch up with you and I look forward to our chat.

Adam: I'm looking forward to it too. You changed the course of basketball history, but your first love like mine is baseball. You played college baseball at Wake Forest. Then you played in the minors for the Phillies and during your time with the Phillies, you met a man who not only reshaped professional sports as we know it, but became your mentor and shaped the trajectory of your career. How did you develop a mentee mentor relationship with Bill Veeck and what were the best lessons you learned from him?

Pat: Well, Adam in 1962, I was in my first year playing pro ball in the affiliate system. We were in Miami and I went to a bookstore on an off day and there was a book sitting there and it was Bill Veeck’s memoirs. I knew of him certainly and followed his career. I bought that book and read it and was absolutely transfixed. It's still the best baseball book ever written, in my opinion, even though it's been out for 60 years or so it's still a delightful read. And through a mutual friend, I was able to make contact with Bill Veeck and he invited me to his home on an off day when I was back home in September of 1962. And that's where a friendship developed- a mentorship really- as I started my career in the front office of baseball. Bill Veeck was a counselor, he was an advisor, he was a friend, he was an inspiration and for 25 years. Bill Veeck was a big part of my life. And so to this day, I still rejoice over his life and still remember vividly that I became friends with his son Mike back who was a minor league baseball promoter. So Bill Veeck is still the architect of all things entertainment wise in sports, everything that's going on now. Bill pioneered it way back, so he was a big part of my life.

Adam: Pat, you shared such an important lesson for listeners. Don't be afraid to reach out if there's someone who you think is important. If there's someone who you think you can learn from, if there's someone who you think can make an impact in your life, pick up the phone, send an email, figure out a way to get in touch with them. The importance of taking initiative cannot be understated.

Pat: Adam, that's well put, and I encourage young people, if they have a chance to go visit someone or exchange a written communication, do it. Young people would often say well I don't want to bother them. You're not bothering and people like to hear from young people. And they like to offer help and suggestions and advice. It's fulfilling to an older veteran. So when I hear from people by mail or any other way I respond, I get back to them. I try to have a chat with him or give him some counsel. Just as people did to me. It's a way of paying back and there were many people who invested in me as a young guy. And I want to do the same today and I think that's true of most sports veterans they like to help.

Adam: I want to ask you about your time as a young guy. You pivoted and to some extent reinvented yourself throughout your career starting off as a baseball player then as a minor league executive breaking into basketball on the business side working for the Sixers before becoming GM of the Bulls then GM of the Hawks, then GM with the Sixers all before your time with the Orlando Magic. Looking back, what did you do that allowed you to rise within your career? And what advice do you have for listeners on how they can rise within their careers?

Adam: Well, the most important thing is to be committed to being a lifelong learner. As the world changes very rapidly, it turns over very quickly. And I encourage people, you know, push forward with your formal education, keep going as high on the formal education ladder as you can. Secondly, it's important to have mentors in your life. You don't need 20 of them, but you need a mentor in a professional area. You need a mentor, perhaps in the financial area, perhaps in the family area, maybe one in the spiritual area of your life, but you need those people in your life and, and you need them in your whole life. You never outgrow the need for mentors. And then thirdly, I can't say this strongly enough, it's important to be well read. It's important to be widely read. This is where Bill Veeck had an enormous impact on me. He was an intense compulsive reader of books, a wide range of books. I mean, whenever I might encounter him, he would have an arm full of books that he just got. He was so excited about reading. Well, I had read some but after seeing how important it was to Bill Veeck, that really changed my approach. And to this day, I am a compulsive reader. People ask me all the time, well, what are you doing on vacation? Well, I don't really have vacations, I read. How's your golf game? I don't play golf. I read. Well, I have fishing going on. I don't fish, I read. But what do you do in your spare time? I read. Because reading is the background. You can't write well, unless you read well. And everything triggers off my reading books. I've turned the pages down and then I collect them. I've got a library that's just getting ready to open here in Orlando. And so lifelong learning is so vitally important.

Adam: If anyone listening to this podcast is looking for a book to read. Pat, you wrote a book on leadership called Revolutionary Leadership. What do you believe are the key characteristics of an effective leader? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Pat: Well, Adam, here's the background of this book. I'm a student of history and fascinated with the Revolutionary War period. I'm fascinated with leadership. So what we did in this book was try to figure out who were the 25 key or important leaders in the Revolutionary War period. Well, it came down to these men and women, and their leadership ability. They weren't perfect people. But we do a chapter on each one of those leaders and George Washington, of course, and other famous people, there were some not so famous. And then we study what they did well as leaders, and we list leadership lessons we can take from these men and women. We had no business, Adam, between Great Britain. England was a powerful force. We were just these little colonies. And the British had better everything, better equipment, better food, better weapons, had a big Navy, we didn't have a Navy. And yet over eight years, we kept grinding away and eventually broke away. Our early country was a miracle. And the difference was, even though Great Britain had better everything, we had better leaders. That was the bottom line. And that's why we prevailed. And that's why we have a country today. So it's important to know who these men and women are far as revolutionary leadership. The book has come out fairly recently, and I think people will enjoy it. Now you asked about leadership, we're here. Here's the key ingredient to every great leader I've ever studied. They were men and women of vision. They were visionaries. In other words, a visionary leader sees before others, a visionary leader sees farther down the road than others. a visionary leader sees in vivid Technicolor, visionary leaders see the finished product already done, and then they work backwards, putting the pieces in place to turn that vision into a reality. And when you study the great leaders of history in any field, the vision is what comes to mind immediately.

Adam: I want to talk a little bit more about that because that's a central theme of your career. You had the vision to bring the Magic to Orlando. And it was a vision that to so many others seemed preposterous. But somehow, you're able to persuade David Stern to bring NBA basketball to a small market, Orlando, Florida. How did you do that and in your experience, what are the keys to persuading someone to coming to your point of view?

Pat: Well, when you look back to June of 1986, when I resigned my position with the 76 years and picked up our family and moved down here, with this idea of trying to bring an expansion basketball team to Orlando, and you're right, in 1986, Orlando was not a big market. So the only way we felt we could prove to the NBA that something was going on here and was specia-l we started a campaign long before we had a team. We said to our community, we needed $100 deposits on season tickets. Well, these were season tickets to a team that didn't exist where there was no arena, where there was no history of basketball. 14,000 people stepped up, we got deposits on 14,000 season tickets. Well, the NBA reacted to that. Ooh, boy, something must be going on down there, what's the story? And they began to pay attention to us. And eventually, in April of 1987, the NBA decided to expand to Ford city. That's how Minneapolis got it. And Charlotte, and Miami and Orlando were a big deal at the time. And we kept selling Orlando on the future. We kept saying, Commissioner, you can look at us now. But you have to pay attention to what's going on here over the next 5,10, 15, 20 years. Well, now it's 35 years, Orlando is now the 17th largest media market in North America. 80 million visitors come here every year. It's quite remarkable what's happening here. And now Adam, we're off on another pursuit trying to convince baseball that Orlando is ready to become a major league baseball city. So we've got another campaign going here. And we're already a bigger TV market and media market in nine current Major League Baseball cities. So we feel very strongly that baseball is the next step here. And Adam, I can already envision opening day, April of 2028.

Adam: As long as you keep the Angels in Anaheim, I’m fine with whatever you're pursuing in Orlando.

Pat: Well, we love the Angels. My son Bobby's a pro scout for the Angels. So the Angels are fine, we're not worried about them. We are paying very close attention to this situation over in St. Petersburg, where the Rays are, well, they just can't make it. They're saying that it's not the market, it hasn't worked. And they're looking for greener pastures, really. So we're quietly working away. But we think we've got a great case for Major League Baseball here in Orlando. So that's my next goal. It's a vision thing, Adam, you know? We're envisioning opening day at this beautiful ballpark, I can already see it. I'm already there. Now we're working backwards, putting the pieces in place to turn that vision into reality

Adam: Pat,, I give a talk on the core principles of resonant leadership. And one of those principles, to your point, is vision. And not all great leaders have great vision. But all great leaders recognize great vision. In your case, you're a visionary. But even if you're not a visionary, understand that, when you see vision, when you come across someone within your organization or someone around you who has vision, accept it and become a part of it. So vision is integral to success as a leader, whether it's your personal strength, or whether it's the personal strength of someone around you. I want to ask you about something that you mentioned a couple of times as you were talking about your experience bringing basketball to Orlando. You use the word selling a few times. And can you expand on that? What are your best tips for anyone listening regardless of what industry they're in, on how to be as effective as possible on whatever they're selling, whether they're selling a product, a service, or a vision?

Pat: Well, the best leaders, Adam, over the years have been the best to salespeople. And we're all salespeople. Now, it's interesting that occasionally in Magic, a young person would come up to me and say, you know I want to get out of sales and I want to get into management. And I will always say well, wait a minute, you want to get out of sales. You get into management then you're selling non stop. I can still hear Chuck Daly, the Hall of Fame coach when he was here one day, he said to me, I'm not a coach. He said, I'm a salesman. He said, all I do is sell all day long. He said, I've got to sell these players on our game plan. And he said, I've got to sell the front office on what we need. And, every time I talk to the media, I'm selling them so that they'll go out and sell the fans. So we have people in the building, he said, I'm not a coach, he said, all I do is sell. Well, you know, every time I hear the President of the United States, no matter who it is, he's always selling some plan or some idea. So every single one of us is in sales, whether we call it that or not. And in many ways, you know, you're a salesperson like that. It's not like no, it's the most important job in the world, really, other than being a parent. We are constantly selling and it's important to study sales and how it works and how you do it. But above all, Adam, you got to sell yourself, I think, more than anything, and I had a wonderful mentor who had the Spartanburg club way back in the 60’s when I was just a young guy, Mr. Littlejohn, and he always stressed the importance of selling yourself. You've got to sell yourself first before you sell anything else. So I've always tried to remember that great advice.

Adam: You've had so many successes in your career, but I want to ask you about an experience where you are on the wrong side of someone else successfully selling and that person was Jerry West, who sold Shaquille O'Neal to come to the Lakers and you were drafted Shaq who was transformative for the Magic but ultimately lost him to the Lakers in free agency. What did you learn from that experience?

Pat: Well, that was a fascinating time. No question. It was the summer of 1996. And Shaq was a free agent. His first contract expired. The one thing we always have to point out is back in that little particular time, there were no matching rights on the contract and today you know you can match if somebody makes a great offer to your young player you can match it and will keep him. Back in that window you didn't have matching rights. And Shaq got hammered with LA. To give Gary West credit, I mean, that was the summer when he made all sorts of moves. He traded his center lobby device to Charlotte to get a draft pick that turned out to be Kobe Bryant. It was remarkable what he did. That was his finest hour as an executive. It took a long time to get over that period. Finally, you know, we win the lottery again. And that was the Dwight Howard draft. And we had another great center who took us to the finals. But what have I learned about Shaq? Well, there's so many things going on at that time. I guess it would be called communication. Maybe we didn't communicate quite well enough with him. But LA has a certain glory, particularly in the NBA. NBA players just seem to be like a magnet to get to LA. And that was the case with Shaq. And of course Kobe. He had a remarkable career and spent his whole career with the Lakers. They pulled off an agreement that summer of 96.

Adam: History keeps repeating itself. It’s been a great summer for the Lakers this year. And as much as we see history repeat itself in basketball, basketball has evolved quite a bit since you broke into the game back in 1968. Can you talk about how leadership within basketball has evolved? You’ve led front offices, you've hired countless coaches. This is a stat I love- that you even had 19 former players who went on to become NBA head coaches. What are the key characteristics of an effective leader in today's game and in what ways has that changed relative to generations past?

Pat: Well, Adam, there was a longtime NBA player named Swen Nater. When they played in the pros, he played at UCLA and he is a great friend and he's a poet. He's a remarkable poet and knowing of my interest in leadership and what it takes to be a great leader, Swinburne put together this little ditty. And I think it captures the full essence of leadership no matter what field you're in. Seven things one must do to be a leader, right and true; have a vision that is strong and clear. Communicate so they can hear people skills based in love and character that's far above the competence to solve to boldness that has fearless reach, a serving heart that stands close by to help assist and edify. Those are what I would call the seven sides of leadership. And in my study of the world's greatest leaders, men and women who have established themselves as legendary leaders, I always look to see if all seven sides of leadership are there. That's what makes them a complete leader. So any leader plugged in here today needs to be constantly checking themselves; how's my vision? Am I communicating it? Well? How are my people skills? Am I reaching out to people? Am I available to people? My character? Am I honest? Do I have integrity? Do I take responsibility? Do I have a humble spirit? Competence- we can always get better. And the best leaders are competent at solving problems. They're competent in selling, they're competent in spotting talent, and then putting teams together. And then the other thing I would say about great leaders that I've noticed is boldness. We talked about Jerry West, that summer of ‘96, when he dealt off his center for the pick, nobody knew who was going to be and then Shaq, boy, that was a bold moment of leadership. And then I touched on the serving heart mentality, when leaders really begin to think, I'm not here to boss people around and to intimidate them and crush them and browbeat them. That's not leadership, you know, that's dictatorship. And when you really have an attitude of serving, I'm not here to serve people. I'm a servant, in my mind, you know, don't brag about that. Jesus, of course, was the ultimate servant leader. But that's what we should be striving for in those seven sides of leadership. And when you know what they are, I think you can really cross check every day and see how you're doing.

Adam: I love it. And there's so much wisdom there. And I love the fact that you brought in the words of wisdom from none other than Swen, Nater. Swen Nater, for listeners who don't know, was the backup Center at UCLA at the time that the starting center was none other than Bill Walton. And Bill Walton was a guest on Thirty Minute Mentors. And we spoke extensively about Bill's experience playing under John Wooden, his lifelong relationship with John Wooden, how John Wooden impacted not only his life on the court, but his life off the court. And I would imagine that so much of the words of wisdom that you shared, and that the philosophy that Swen developed around leadership emanated directly from John Wooden and when you talk about what it takes to be a great leader, whether it's a great basketball coach or a great CEO, so much of it is in line with the principles that John Wooden shared with his players and with anyone else around him.

Pat: Well, Adam, let me just say this, I was very, very fortunate to win well, or coach wouldn't have allowed me into his life. This was deep into his life. I wanted to write a book about it. Well, I ended up writing four books about him. To this day, John Wooden impacts the world. I was at a high school volleyball game the other night at a gym here in Orlando, and there on the far side of the gym wall were John Wooden quotes all over the wall, you know, taped up to the wall quotes from Coach Wooden. Now, most of those young athletes probably never heard of him, unfortunately, but they need to and so John Wooden is quoted- he's everywhere, long after his death. And I wanted to write those books to capture the different aspects of his life. So much we can learn from, from the great John Wooden. Failing to prepare is preparing to fail. And then the one he learned from his dad was to make each day your masterpiece. What a challenge that is, for example, making each day your masterpiece. So every morning you wake up and you're simply saying, Lord, I want this to be a masterpiece day. Well, if you do that every day, Adam, you're gonna have a way to live. So much to learn from John Wooden. Fortunately, in his latter years, he wrote extensively. I'm so glad he did, because that captured the heart of the man. So even though he's been gone for years, now you can make a study of John Wooden, just with the books that are out there that he wrote, and other people have written about it. You can take your own course, go find the books, read them, and you will automatically be a much better person.

Adam: Failing to prepare is preparing to fail is one of my favorite quotes of all time. My favorite quote of all time is actually a quote from a player who you traded for. And it was a quote that I heard from my favorite author of all time, David Halberstam, who profiled Julius Erving and what is that quote? Do you know where I'm going here?

Pat: Well, we brought Julius to Philadelphia in 1976, in a big cash transaction with the net. And that was, that was a whole other discussion. And we could do a whole show on that.

Adam: I'm gonna ask you about that. But Julius Erving's quote, which I love, is being a professional is doing what you love to do on the days you don't feel like doing it.

Pat: Well, there's a great truth to that. And then there are many days we don't know. Let me tell you that Julius, he showed up every night, played every game. He knew there were people in the stands who had come from many, many, many miles to see him play. And for him to announce that morning, I'm not playing tonight. I'm maintaining my body, you know, or something like that, or whatever they call it these days. Can you imagine the attitude in that gym that night? That he didn't play- Julius decided he's fine. He's sitting here in his street clothes. Never would happen. Joe DiMaggio never would do that. Or Ted Williams or, you know, the great wins, realize that the people in the ballpark- it’s packed to see them. And Julius was very, very much aware of who he was and his legacy. And he knew that these people might be the only time that they'd see him play. And he wanted it to be a good memory. There are no days off in life, Adam, really. I've often thought about that in my speaking career, you know, so you've got Yeah, you know, I'm booked and I'll be there. But I just don't feel it tonight. I just, boy, I don't know where I can bring it. Well, those people couldn't care about the speech you gave last week or last year. You know, they're there to get it tonight. So you better get yourself up. You better get yourself ready. If I go to a Broadway show, and pay top dollar, and the lead singer just says, You know, I just can't bring it tonight. I'm going to just give it a half effort. But wait a minute. Do I get a half price ticket? You got it. You have to come ready to play every day.

Adam: I love it. Pat, in our remaining time, I want to ask you some rapid fire questions starting with a topic I alluded to: you spent your career negotiating deals and you managed to trade for two NBA legends Dr. J, and Moses Malone in the primes of their careers. What are your best tips on the topic of negotiations?

Pat: Well, that's a whole other discussion. I think the key to being a good negotiator is being a good listener. Listen to the other side, listen to what they're saying. Understand that it's not a good deal unless both people leave the negotiating table satisfied. You don't negotiate to wipe the other guy out, to crush him. Because you may be back in a year doing business with him again. And you don't want him to be out there saying he ripped me off or lied to me or he misled me in that last negotiation. So much of it is just simply trust. And in the NBA if you're going to be around for a while, you know, we're running a ball club. If you're not straight in your negotiations with other teams, boy, word’s gonna spread real fast. You don't want to do business with that guy, you know, he lied to you. He didn't tell me the truth on that last deal. We made that ballplayer he sent over to us hurt. And our doctor looked at him and he found something there that he was alarmed about. And they sold us damaged goods. Well, let me tell you something, that that's gonna end your career real quick. If people can't trust you, or do business with you, because they don't think you're straight, you're honest, you're straight. So it's so vital in our relationships, particularly in negotiations, that you're not going to win everything. You want the other side to be satisfied as well. And you're going to do business in the future. If you're going to be in that profession for a long time. I don't care whether it's selling cars or running a basketball team or doing any, any endeavor. People have got to be able to take your word to the bank.

Adam: Your word is your bond, take the long view. Listen to the other side. A question that I ask guests from time to time is on a scale of one to 10, how important is ethics when it comes to leadership? And your answer right there, nails it because if you are not ethical in your business dealings, you're not going to be around to do business for all that long, particularly at a high level.

Pat: We'll catch up with you real quick, Adam. Years ago, General Norman Schwarzkopf made a very interesting statement. He said leadership consists of two vital components. He said, strategy and character. And then he added if you have to do without one, he said do without the strategy. Schwarzkopf also added, he said, in my study of leadership, he said, when there's a breakdown of leadership in almost every case, it can be traced back to a breakdown of character. And when you use that word character, I need to break it down even further. What are the components of a character leader? Well, I think I've touched on them. But character leaders are honest. There are men and women of integrity. They take responsibility. They don't point fingers. They don't blame others. Character leaders have a humble spirit. And character people are always, always aware of their influence. The leader, I don't care who he is, has a sphere of influence. The way he speaks, the way she dresses, the way she greets people, the way he deals with people at all levels of the organization- that spreads across the organization like wildfire. The influence of the leader is enormous. Great leaders are always aware of the influence they're having.

Adam: Pat, you drafted Shaq, you drafted Charles Barkley- you have the opportunity to draft an all time starting five. Who do you take?

Pat: Oh my goodness. Well, Michael Jordan. He makes it. He's probably my first pick. I think I probably wouldn't want to draft LeBron. I'm going to need a center. It Is very hard to pass Kareem Abdul Jabbar even though I would have to pass Bill Russell. I got Kareem in the middle. I've got Magic in them. Or I'll put Magic back there with Michael Jordan. Lebron’s on one side and oh boy, I guess Larry Bird would be okay on the other side. So you've got LeBron and the power four. I'm gonna play him at the small forward and we'll play Larry at the four. Okay, Kareem is at five and Michael at the two and- no Magic at the one. But you know, where do we put Dirk Nowitzki? Is he on the second team? What about Julius? Do we want Wilt in the middle? I mean, the second team could be as good as the first team. And where's Tim Duncan? Is he on the third team? It's an impossible task, by the way, but that first seems pretty good.

Adam: It's an impossible question, which is why I asked it but I'm gonna ask you an even harder question, which is if you were to draft an all time starting five of personalities, who would you pick?

Pat: Oh, boy. Well, you'd want Darryl Dawkins in the middle and Charles Barkley makes that team. That's a good one. Hot Rod Hundley- got to put him in the back door. That's a pretty good start. Who else? Who else makes that cut? Moses, in his own way, was a character budget, but nobody could talk like Darrell. Darrell was a poet. Darrell was a fun loving kid. Do you know who is always looking to make his mark? Charles Barkley has been that way his whole career. I could tell Charles Barkley stories the rest of the afternoon.

Adam: What’s your favorite Charles Barkley story?

Pat: Well, probably when we had the fifth pick in the draft that year 1984. We knew we weren't going to get Michael in a large one. So we focused on Charles and we brought him in. Before the draft, he weighed 292 pounds, six foot four. And we said Charles, you gotta lose some weight. You know, we can't have you this weight. We're gonna bring you back before the draft in about six weeks and see where we are. We brought him back. He weighed 292 pounds and hadn't lost a pound. I said, Charles, you have got to start eating from the six major food groups. And a month later, there were only two left. Charles had a Big Mac in both hands. We had some fun with big Charles and still do. Nobody's quite like him. He's carved that career, you know, and he's beloved. And one of the greatest characters of all time.

Adam: And a great lesson when it comes to Charles Barkley; the importance of authenticity. Be yourself. Don't try to be someone else. Be you. There's only one you out there. There's only one Charles Barkley.

Pat: There's so much truth to that. You are as God created you. He gave you a whole different set of skills. You've got fingerprints that nobody else in the history of the world ever had. You're a unique creature. God doesn't need copycats. He wants you to be you to the very best of your ability.

Adam: Pat, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Pat: Adam, good to catch up with you. I hope people enjoyed this book, Revolutionary Leadership. A lot of what we've talked about is incorporated in that book about leading at a very high level.

Adam: Thanks again.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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