Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Ambassador Patricia Moller

I recently interviewed Ambassador Patricia Moller on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today was the United States Ambassador to two different conflict-ridden countries. Patricia Moller was the US Ambassador to Burundi and the US Ambassador to Guinea and served in diplomatic posts all over the world for more than three decades in Foreign Service. Ambassador Moller, thank you for joining us.

Patricia: Great pleasure. Thank you very much, Adam.

Adam: Pleasure's mine. You grew up all over the world. Your dad was a colonel in the Air Force. You went to kindergarten and first grade in Munich, and you went to college in Tampa, Florida. And you kicked off your career in finance, spending a decade working in the world of investment banking before joining the Foreign Service? Can you take listeners back to your early days? What early experiences and lessons most significantly shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

Patricia: I was fortunate in that I had a dad who gave me some really good advice that I could extrapolate throughout my career. I felt really lucky that my dad who was born in the 20s was a man who was free of prejudice. He was unafraid of women. He was a big feminist. I always say he burned his prop before anybody else did. But he always said, "You can be whatever you want to be. And I'll do everything I can to make that happen for you." He was just an impressive guy. And some of the cautionary lessons that he related to me, carried me through. I feel so grateful that I had a parent who reached out and advised me. That made life a little bit easier for me. On my first posting as Ambassador when I was sworn in, Condi Rice swore me in and I talked about my dad, and Condi Rice was with me, 100%. I subsequently read her book called Ordinary People, and she discussed her dad's influence. And I thought that's why she was so open to those remarks about my father because she had the same kind of experience with her dad.

Adam: I love it. What compelled you to drastically change careers, working in finance, working in investment banking, and taking a huge pay cut in doing so? And what advice do you have for anyone listening on whether and how to pivot in their careers?

Patricia: The world of investment banking, stocks, bonds, and commodity trading futures, is pretty tough. It's a very alone experience. And it's an experience that is not always obvious how that experience adds value to the world in general. It wasn't to me and I know. I have a dear friend who's an investment banker who has done wonderful things. But I woke up one morning, literally opened my eyes, and thought, I'm just not adding any value that I want to add to the world. I'm not going to be able to do this for much longer. I thought, well, how long can I tease this out for about six months? I simply arrived finally. I always say the obvious occurs to me in blinding flashes of hints. But it was obvious to me that I was not doing something that made me passionate about doing it. I didn't think I was doing a good enough job for my customers. I just felt that I needed to dial back and find a passion. And all my friends had always said, oh, God, why don't you just join the State Department? That's where you need to be. You need to be there. And I thought to myself, perhaps I should take some advice from people, I have some in high regard. So I took the State Department examination to be a Foreign Service Officer, passed it, and came into the Foreign Service as a US diplomat.

Adam: I love that. Something that I share with just about every audience that I speak to, including the audience of listeners of Thirty Minute Mentors. When you're trying to figure out what you want to do with your life, you want to try to check three boxes. Number one, am I doing something that I love? Number two, am I doing something that I'm great at? Number three, am I doing something that allows me to make a positive impact in the lives of others? And I love what you just shared. You woke up one morning, and you realized that I was going to check in any of those three boxes. I'm not passionate about what I'm doing. I'm not doing all that great of a job for my customers. You probably were, but you probably weren't doing as good of a job as you knew you were capable of doing if you were doing something else. And perhaps most importantly, what kind of value am I adding to the world? I just don't see it. I don't feel it. And what did you do? You listen to your friends, you listen to those closest to you. And you went at it, you weren't afraid to make a change.

Patricia: Fear is our greatest enemy Adam.

Adam: How can anyone listen, attack, and overcome whatever fears they face?

Patricia: One of the things that I learned during my posting, and it was something that I think I was doing for years, but it never really smacked me in the head until as Ambassador to the Republic of Guinea, I needed to go and speak with the deputy of the coup leader who had been assassinated. And this man was known as Il Tigre, the tiger. He was a Ghanaian colonel, who had served in some difficult places in West Africa and had quite a reputation. And when the coup leader of Guinea survived but suffered an assassination attempt and had to be medically evacuated, I needed to go talk to him. Because if we didn't talk to him, we were never going to have the opportunity to try and hold free fair, and democratic elections that the people of Guinea so desperately wanted. Fast forward, to this meeting organized. It's in a military cantonment. I drove up, and I thought, I feel like I'm a part of the cast of Apocalypse now. And I got out of the car, my big black suburban, got out of the car with my little high-heeled shoes in my little black business suit, my little earrings, and walked across this courtyard full of soldiers drinking beer, and women cooking rice and bandoliers of machine gun bullets and piles of hand grenades. And I'm conducted upstairs into the bedroom suite of Il Tigre. And I thought to myself, as I walked across that courtyard, surely this is the dumbest thing I've ever done. But it was something that had to be done, or we might as well just pack up and go home. I realized at that moment, I was able to formulate it for myself to say being brave doesn't mean you're not scared to death. It means you do it anyway. And that's where we all need to try to be, even if we have to say it to ourselves. Even if we have to say, this frightens me, I'm gonna do it anyway. Because it's something that needs doing. Once you're there, you may still be afraid, but you're going to do it anyway. You're going to benefit from that.

Adam: Acknowledge your fears. Don't pretend like they don't exist.

Patricia: So thirdly, because that's a losing battle.

Adam: Yeah, stare there. them down, face them head-on.

Patricia: Yeah, give it your best shot. Be intelligent about the risks you take, but be willing to take them.

Adam: Il Tigre sounded like he was a bad hombre.

Patricia: He turned out to be a wonderful man. Not a perfect man, certainly a flawed individual. And I'm still in touch with him from time to time. But I said to him, "What do you see for the future of your people?" And he said, "Well, we want to have democratic elections." And I said, "Well, I'll tell you what, I'm the new US ambassador." And he said, "You're the ambassador?" I said, "Yes, I am. If you will work with me, if you will keep your country safe and you will agree that there will be no military running to be president, I'll work with you. And we will assist you to have good elections that your people want." And he said, "Okay." And by golly, we were off to the races.

Adam: You bring up a lot of different themes that I want to dive into. You've worked with a lot of bad hombres, a lot of good hombres, and a lot of people in between great leaders, and terrible leaders. In your experience, what are the key characteristics of the very best leaders? What are the key characteristics of the worst leaders? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Patricia: I have always believed and propounded that you are as good as the lowest-ranking person who works for you. It's got to start at the bottom and move up. And good leaders understand the dignity and the value of everybody's contribution. When I was at the State Department, and every post, I made a real point of speaking to in the field, we call them char staff, custodial staff, coming in to clean our offices, and empty the trash and do all the stuff that needs doing desperately every day. Because those people were not always recognized. They were doing a wonderful service and they were expected to be there and work hard. And people were treating them like furniture. And just from the lowest to the highest, everyone needs to be recognized, they need to be respected. And I think they need feedback. I'm big on feedback. Good leaders help people get feedback and help people be recognized. Colin Powell, what a great Secretary of State Colin Powell was. Colin Powell told a story and many of your listeners, I'm sure have heard this, so I'll just race through it. But it was a story about Colin Powell going to the Empire State Building, and seeing one of the Empire State Building custodians emptying trash cans, and asking him, "What are you doing?" And he said, "What I'm doing is making this building clean and safe for our visitors. I am helping New York to be the center of everything fun for people who are coming to the Big Apple. I'm doing a good job for them." And Colin Powell made the point that when you look at the big picture, everybody has an important role to play. And I, for years, have done that. And I was so happy to hear him stand up and say that because his behavior modeled respect for everyone. That's such an important characteristic for people who want to lead.

Adam: I've never heard that story about Colin Powell. But I heard a very similar story from a Thirty Minute Mentors guest General Gus Perna, one of the great military leaders of our day. And he told the story about JFK and the janitor who was preparing the mission to the moon. And JFK was chatting with a janitor and the janitor shared something very similar, which is, "I am focused on helping people get to the moon."

Patricia: Yeah, I think it is essential. If you don't respect everybody who is in there trying to help a job get done, then you don't get the big picture. If you don't get the big picture, you need to rethink yourself.

Adam: A few other things you shared which I hope listeners take to heart. Great leaders understand the importance of surrounding themselves with great people up and down their organizations. Great leaders understand and respect the dignity and value of every single person's contribution. The very best leaders lead not by telling people, you have to do this. This is an order, this is a command. The very best leaders lead through persuasion, lead through inspiration, lead by compelling the people whom they lead to understand the why, the why we do what we do.

Patricia: That is the key question. In the State Department, we have something in foreign missions called the country team meeting. And that enables people to go around the table and everybody talks about their particular piece of the pie. But everybody at that table has to understand what the main mission is. They have to be free to discuss what their feelings are about what's happening. I used to say to them, "Guys, if you don't tell me what you think I might as well be sitting here by myself. Because you're here to help me do what we need to do." We had wonderful country teams, because people were not afraid that they were going to be shamed, or derisively dismissed if they espoused an opinion that was not generally held. We all have to be able to take risks and we have to be able to do it in an environment that puts its arms around us and says, go ahead and say this because I might not have thought of it.

Adam: How can leaders create that kind of environment?

Patricia: I think you listen to people. I think you let people know that everyone's success, every individual's success is a group success. Sure, some brilliant people do fabulous things. But they didn't rise from the ashes like a phoenix. They came from a group surround that contributed to their brilliance. Everybody's achievement is everybody's group's achievement. And even bad ideas that are not adopted are valuable. Because you cross out something that's not going to work, or that didn't work. We all have to have the ability to put our heads together in an organization and the leader of the organization, there's no conflict. Any organizational leader is not conflicted about who gets to make the final decision. That's not the problem. But you've got to listen to people who might have a different point of view, that might change your mind. We had classes to raise people's awareness about their responsibilities as senior leaders, I always said in classes, "Hey, guys, listen to your junior staff, likely your junior staff, the guys who the toe rings, and the tattoos, because they're going to have a different point of view than you're gonna have. And you have to create an environment that people want to share. I have this idea. It may be dumb. No, it's not dumb, it may not work, but we want to hear it."

Adam: You shared a lot of great stuff there. And to dive into a couple of points that you share, great leaders are great listeners, great leaders genuinely care about what the people around them have to say, no matter who those people are. Could be their closest, most trusted advisors, or could be the person at the bottom of the totem pole. Doesn't matter. Every single person has something to contribute, something to add, and to your point, the people who may look like they should be the last people who you should listen to, are probably the first people who you should listen to, because they're coming at it from a different perspective than what you might otherwise be getting exposure to. So go out of your way to try to seek diverse voices, to try to seek disparate voices, to surround yourself with people who will expand your worldview, who will tell you things that you would otherwise not be hearing.

Patricia: I couldn't agree more. One of the things that I think contributed greatly to my ability to do some fairly paradigm-changing things over the years was that I didn't talk. I've listened. And so often, we had leaders coming out that wanted to talk but not listen. And there was one point at which someone who thought that he was going to put together a coup d'etat wanted to talk to me, and I sat there for, I kid you not, more than two hours without speaking a word. And finally, he ran out of gas. And he said, "Okay, what do you think?" And I said, "You better be certain that you want to know how history will judge you for this, it will not be a coming judgment." And I left. The next day, the whole thing was off, and they were begging me to listen to them again so that they could apologize. But I don't think that would have happened, had they not been able to spend two-plus hours yakking on about their completely nonsensical, but dangerous, because it was guys with guns, but dangerous idea about pulling the coup together. And everyone who was with me in those meetings will attest to this, I just think it's so important to listen. Because eventually, even the bad guys, ' bucket is going to be empty. They will have dumped their bucket talking to you. And then you have the opportunity to speak. But you can't interrupt it, or change their minds, that's not going to work. That's not going to work. You've got to wait till they finish saying what they're saying so that you can find out if there's anything that you can say that's going to add value to the situation.

Adam: As you're describing your approach to conflict resolution, to leadership, to negotiations, what I'm thinking about is the rope a dope, Muhammad Ali in the rink.

Patricia: Totally. It's very cool. The process can be very cool.

Adam: Two hours, wear him down.

Patricia: Absolutely. Let them do themselves in. Don't do it for them.

Adam: Can you expand upon your approach to negotiations and conflict resolution? Have you been involved in dealing with incredibly intense and high-stakes crises in some of the hottest spots around the world throughout your career? What advice do you have on those topics?

Patricia: Well, the biggest advice I have is you quail with a lot of patience. I must say that, during my negotiations as ambassador to Burundi, with the opposition leaders in Burundi, who were making it impossible for the country to operate profitably, to operate normally. I gained enormous respect for President, Jimmy Carter. Because we took the opposition leaders. We meant what I would refer to as the interested ambassadors from interested countries, certainly the French, the South Africans, a lot of the African ambassadors, and the UN, we took a plane with these guys down to a small Safari resort in South Africa, near Johannesburg, and they locked us in there. I mean, we locked ourselves in there for as long as it was going to take to get these opposition leaders around to a negotiating posture that we could all live with, that we felt would perhaps be sustainable for Burundi as it moved forward. Jimmy Carter, I remember he had the leaders of the Palestinians and the Israelis and he took them to Camp David, and he locked a mound until they agreed. There is something to be said for the process. These guys at and end of about two and a half weeks would have done anything to get out of there. So they became far more amenable to understanding what their possibilities were. There's so much that you can do as a negotiator to focus people on ways forward, and to incentivize them to find those ways forward. And one of the ways certainly is to remove another stimulus so that they have to focus on what they're doing. Certainly, many approaches are wonderful. But one of the secrets to successful negotiations is creating a space where people can focus on where their benefits lie, and how they're going to get out there. You have to read the room a little bit. And you have to listen to people. Again, listen to them, what are they saying? Is there common ground? Can you find something that you can both agree on? I remember reading about when we were trying initially, to agree to end the Vietnam War. And the negotiations were going on in Paris. And they spent like, I don't know how long it was, I can't remember exactly, but I think it was like a week arguing about the shape of the table. But you know what? While they were arguing about the shape of the table, they were talking to each other. And they were learning things, I don't remember if that was particularly successful or not, but you got to keep the conversation and the process going. Because sometimes the process will lead to outcomes. As long as you're talking, you're in business, when you stop talking to people, it's over. You might as well just pack your bags and walk away because you've lost unless you were taking with you that which they must have to survive. And you're not often in that position.

Adam: As long as you're talking, you're in business. That can be applied well beyond negotiations, and speaks to the importance of being focused on the end game, being focused on achieving whatever goal you have. And if you're focused on that end game, reaching your goals, and you're doing whatever you can to get there, you're going to be a lot more likely to get there when your mind is focused on it, when you're working toward it, when you're taking steps moving in that direction. So literally, when you're talking, you're in business. And figuratively, when you're in motion, when you're in process, you're gonna be a lot more likely to get there.

Patricia: Oh, absolutely. You need to know what your goals are. But you also need to know what your wiggle room is. And if you know that, then you've got the tools you need to go into that negotiation. Keep people talking, and find their wiggle room, and see if you can make it work. But you got to keep talking.

Adam: Or what are the best lessons that you've learned from your time leading under fire, leading under crisis? And what are your best tips on how to lead in times of crisis?

Patricia: You've got to be the leader, you've got to be out in front and you cannot ask people to do things that you are unwilling to do. You really must lead by example. If you are in a situation, where it's one of those times that everybody has to crash and work hard and there may not be an end to the overtime, there may not be an end to when you have to stop working so hard, then you better be on in front of that. You better be telling people how much you value their contribution. You must provide feedback and incentives and you must be the leader intellectually, emotionally, and physically. You've got to be present for your people. Town hall meetings were the best things in the world I did. When we had either difficult situations or happy situations, I just call staff together and say, "15-minute town hall meeting. Tomorrow at whatever time." Everybody gets together, just informally standing around and I would say, "I've got something really exciting to tell you. We're doing this, we're doing that", or "I've got something to tell you, we're having a difficulty with this, we may have to turn around and do that." Keep people informed. It's so ironic to me that one of the hardest things we do is penetrate the stove pipes of the individual offices in our organizations. If I'm in the HR, my stove pipe is the HR stove pipe. I'm in finance, my stove pipe is finance stove pipe. All these stove pipes go straight up, but they don't connect. Connecting those stove pipes for everybody in your organization is essential. Everybody has got to know what the mission is. People have got to know what's going on. It creates synergy. If the finance people know that the HR people need something, and then the political people need something else but we can make it work, all three of those offices working together, then we can make something cool happen. It's communication. We're dealing with people, this is not artificial intelligence. These are people. And people need to be treated like people.

Adam: It comes back to the basic blocking and tackling. Be present, show up, keep people informed, and communicate.

Patricia: Totally. It isn't easy in any organization to keep people informed. It's the hardest thing in the world we do. I've never understood why, I just know that it is. But if you can do that, wow. You have compounded your ability to solve problems. by however many organizations you have brought together, and how many internal groups you brought together. That's how many times you've compounded your ability to solve problems.

Adam: As challenging as it might be to communicate effectively, I would argue that is probably more challenging to become a two-time US ambassador, but you figured out how to do that. You rose within your career in an incredibly male-dominated space, particularly at the time. What were the keys to rising within your career? And what advice do you have for anyone on how to rise within their career?

Patricia: I will tell you that for anybody, you're gonna look at the career field and you know you can do the job. I mean, for goodness sake, you can do the basic job. That's why you're there. But everybody needs to do is say, what can I do that adds value to this job? What more can I add to this? And you have to be motivated. And you have to want to do something to want to ask those questions. But if you're somebody who wants to move forward, who wants to explore their abilities to do well, to say, what can I do? Where can I end up in this organization? Then you will look at ways to add value. I remember as a first tour officer in Munich, Munich is the leitmotif of my life. I seem to be back in Munich all the time. We all start as consular officers. The Consular Section needed to be opened at 06:30 in the morning to be prepared for the day. And I said, "I'll come in and open it up. I have no problems with them." Well, it's scut work. But guess what? It's adding value. As a first tour officer, scut work was about the best value I was going to be able to add. And it was pretty cool because nobody else had to come in at that time. Look for ways to add value to everything you do. It can be an inch, or it can be a yard. But if you can figure out a way to add value, then you're doing something that moves you ahead, not just in a success-driven way, but in a way that you understand that you have now added value to that job that you're doing. Believe in yourself and be determined to hang in there and add value and you understand that not everybody in the world is cool. You're not going to have great bosses all the time and you're not going to have good support groups. You're going to have to be your best friend. And I think that with a certain mindset, you're adding value, you're going to do the best you can. You're gonna give it all you've gotten, you're gonna see where you end up. It's an adventure. You were embarking on an adventure.

Adam: Ambassador Moller, what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Patricia: I think you figure out what rings your chimes and make it happen. You are in charge of yourself, you can make it happen. It doesn't matter if you can articulate that which you want to be in 40 years. It matters that you can feel in your being, those things that make you fulfilled, those things that make you happy. What can you achieve? How can you achieve them, doesn't matter how small or big they are? Just keep going for something that makes you feel good.

Adam: You are in charge of yourself. Take ownership, take control, and get in the driver's seat.

Patricia: Because if you're not in the driver's seat, somebody else is and it may not be somebody you want to have driving. 

Adam: Ambassador Moller, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Patricia: Thanks so much. I enjoyed it thoroughly.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally-recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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