Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Congressman Patrick Kennedy

I recently interviewed Congressman Patrick Kennedy on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a former congressman and a leading mental health advocate. Patrick Kennedy served in Congress for eight terms, where he co-authored the landmark Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act. Patrick is also the author of the new book, Profiles in Mental Health Courage. Patrick, thank you for joining us.

Patrick: Thank you so much, Adam. It's great to be with you.

Adam: Great to have you on. You were born in 1967, four years after your uncle, John F. Kennedy, was assassinated. Another uncle of yours, Robert F. Kennedy, was assassinated right before you turned one. At the time your dad, Ted Kennedy, was in his first term as a U.S. Senator. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What early experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

Patrick: Well, when I lost my dad in 2009, I was, along with my brother and sister, going through his belongings and the house and everything. And being siblings, you giggle about the vagaries and intricacies of different family things that we can laugh at. No one else would know what we were laughing at. We played down what it was like living with that violence and the impact of that violence. So we noticed that there were bulletproof vests in all the closets. And it was kind of like, oh, oh, yeah, that's right. how conscious we were in terms of, is this going to be reality for us like it was for our cousins? I can't tell whether consciously or subconsciously I knew that, except after my father died, I was with his former chief of staff who shared with me letters that were not to be opened. unless my dad was killed. And each letter was written to me and my sister, my brother. It was a parting message. Take care of your brother and sister. Be around. Very heartfelt, obviously, but the idea that he would have to write those letters to us. So, my dad, after watching both of his brothers murdered, dramatically impacted my mom. They both tried to have other children, and there were miscarriages and Chappaquiddick, and it was totally the trauma on every other family member. We lose sight when we read about all these shootings and so forth, the impact on the families. And as someone who fights for mental health coverage, I'm obviously very well versed in the impact of trauma on families because I've seen it play itself out in the lives of my cousins, in addition to my own family. I wouldn't say feel sorry for me. I grew up with the front-row seat to the most exciting aspects of political life in this country. And frankly, sports and entertainment, because politics, everybody is part of the discussion. It's not an industry where it's just one type of person. So when I was growing up, Muhammad Ali would be at our house and Mick Jagger. I was just seeing an old movie, Absence of Malice, with Paul Newman, and he was over at our house frequently and just talked to Martin Luther King III yesterday about the celebration of his dad's 100th birthday in five years and how they're going to ramp up 100,000 hours of donated time. And we're working together. And it was just like, oh, my God, I'm working just as his dad and my dad worked on voting rights and how his dad worked with my uncles on civil rights. So there was a lot of energy. And I'll just end with this. I was reading to my six-year-old last night, Everest. We have all these little books that I love reading to the kids. They're made for kids. and it remembered Jim Whitaker. Jim Whitaker used to go skiing with us, and Jim Whitaker was the first American to scale Mount Everest. That's just an example of when you're in the middle of things, you get exposed to, as you're trying to do with your podcast, people who were on the edge of each of their respective areas of influence. And they're interesting people. So I could say I was able to get the benefit of hanging around, if you will, really interesting people. So I don't want to dwell on the negative aspects. There was lots of positives to be grateful for.

Adam: I love that. And obviously among all the influences in your life, the greatest had to have been your dad, Senator Ted Kennedy. And I've interviewed so many great leaders, many of whom have spoken about the impact that your dad has had on them, one who comes to mind, Tom Perez, who cited your dad as one of the greatest leaders who he has ever been around, who he has ever worked for, who helped shape his style as a leader. What made your dad such an effective leader, and what are the best lessons that you've learned from all the time that you spent with your dad, Senator Ted Kennedy?

Patrick: Well, he was really gifted with a special spirit that attracted people. He loved people. In politics these days, people have to love the camera because that's how they connect with people. My dad liked old-school rallies, back-slapping, social clubs, labor rallies, senior centers. He loved that old style of retail politics. And he was very good at it because people loved him. He was just such an approachable human being. I think his brother Bobby was, from everything I can fathom, was very big, charismatic folks, certainly President Kennedy. But my dad was the guy on the ground, if you will, blocking and tackling to try to get their vision and legacy implemented, both of his brothers, in the over 40 years he was in the Senate. I think he was very good at attracting the best and brightest to help him. He shared credit, gave credit, acknowledged everyone that was part of what he was doing around him. You look back at every major person of consequence in the Democratic Party for the last few decades, all started either working in my dad's office or working with him, or you can go from CEOs of major news networks to David Boies, leading trial attorney, on and on and on. It's really something that can be said that even the smartest people in the country were in awe of his ability to attract people to get things done. My dad had a gift for if you will, a good EQ. He had good emotional intelligence. He could read people, and so he knew how to reach people. He really was extraordinary. From what I learned from him, he always said about life as a football game, it's three yards and a cloud of dust. In his brother, President Kennedy's case, it was a completed Tom Brady passed into the end zone. But my dad was churning and burning, trying to get progress made one down at a time. So he basically taught me that it wasn't an all-or-nothing proposition, that life was just steps, and all you could do is what you could do today, and leave tomorrow to tomorrow, and yesterday in the past, and just keep moving. He's constantly trying to move forward. When you could have seen him hang it up and retire earlier, live a more enjoyable, relaxing life, but he was always trying to be in the middle, like in the room where it happens, like the Hamilton play. He loved the energy about being around as Teddy Roosevelt said, the action and passion of our times.

Adam: Patrick, you shared so much there that I love. Starting off with love of people. When I give keynotes, one of the things that I share is there are plenty of things you can do in life and be really successful in if you don't love people. You can be a great accountant. You could be a great software engineer. You could be a great data scientist. You and I could probably come up with a long list over the next 30 minutes. But you're never going to be a successful leader. To lead effectively, you need to fundamentally love people. And no one loves people more than your dad. The very best leaders deeply love the people they lead, deeply love people. Period.

Patrick: Well, tragically for my dad, he was like the eulogizer in chief, the consoler in chief, because of all the loss that he suffered during the Iraq war. He was calling every family in Massachusetts that lost a child. 9-11, he called every single family in Massachusetts who lost a loved one. When anyone went through something really tragic, he would be right there to make a phone call. And for anybody who answered that phone that was grieving, they didn't have to feel alone because they knew my dad knew something about suffering.

Adam: A few other things you shared which really stood out, as you were describing your dad's style, three yards and a cloud of dust, comparing that to your uncle's style, who you compared to Tom Brady. And the message there really is that. There's no one way to win. There's no one way to succeed. But in order to succeed, you have to lean into your own style. You have to lean into your strengths. You can't try to be someone else. Your dad wasn't going to be John Kennedy. John Kennedy wasn't going to be Ted Kennedy. We all have our unique gifts, our unique talents. And to be successful, we have to embrace them. We can't try to be the second-best version of anyone else.

Patrick: Thank you for that. I agree. I started in politics. Obviously, it's very overwhelming. I have these enormously eloquent relatives in politics and these titans who've gotten so much done. To go into this business is really hard because everybody comes and looks at you and say, well, do you have that special something that they had? And of course, that's very intimidating. Because unless you have smooth, eloquent with your oratory, you just feel like a loser. But I think the benefit for me is my dad made me realize you just got to go. You can't get consumed with what other people think. He impressed me because he said, you have an incredible political capital. because of our family and all the sacrifice. And if you use it for social justice, for what was intended, you should use it. For me, when I ran for office, I was very young. So long as I was doing something because of my family name, I could get more people to help me to do things with me. But if it was for the right thing, that was what I was supposed to do. Whether I felt adequate to the task or not, if I weren't doing it, These are things that may not be getting done. That's why I connect so much to my mental health advocacy because I know that I get the extra attention because my last name's Kennedy. And I know people with mental illness and addiction, as in the case of my family, traditionally are looked down upon or marginalized, who have no power. I was lucky, even though I felt that way internally, it wasn't true. Obviously, I had a lot of power as a member of Congress. I had a famous name. I could get access to treatment and all the rest. But I definitely got insight. But for the fact that I was a member of Congress, I would have just said, call it quits. There's just nothing I can do to resurrect who I am and survive and come out the other side. And that's the really negative impact of having one of these illnesses is they're so demeaning and marginalizing and dismissed that to try to come out the other side with some personal power intact is an extraordinary achievement. I had all the support I needed to come out the other side and still have a network, still have people pay attention to me. Most of my fellows in recovery from addiction and mental illness, very few of them have that. So my heart goes out to them because there but for the grace of God go I. You know, I was lucky I had this name, I had these connections, but I can't imagine going through this life having suffered with addiction and trying to make it to the other side. I will say there's nearly 30 million Americans in long-term recovery. So I don't want to leave the impression that it's not possible, but all of them are miracles because this disease is so powerful as we see from the overdose and suicide rates.

Adam: You've been referencing your struggles with addiction and because you were a member of Congress, because you're a member of the Kennedy family, your struggles have been highly publicized. Your low moments are out there. Everyone sees them. They're written about. How were you able to navigate the lowest moments of your life? And what advice do you have for anyone listening on how to navigate the most difficult moments, the toughest obstacles, challenges, and setbacks they face in their lives and in their careers?

Patrick: Well, when I left Congress, because I just couldn't hack it any longer, I knew it was just a matter of time before I imploded. A chronic illness, it's treated as an acute episodic illness. I could go into all the details on how we have it really addressed. treating people effectively with this illness. But I'll just give you this one anecdote. I had been given interventions and people had said things aren't looking good for you. So when I left Congress, I left that outer shell that propped me up and made me feel like I still got something. I moved from Rhode Island and Washington. I deleted all the numbers in my phone because I didn't want to get pulled back in. In that famous Godfather movie, every time I try to get out, they pull me back in. I wanted to break free from the past, really focus on my recovery, which included a lot of 12-step work. I just want to say for my fellows who are listening who are in 12-step recovery, you can say you're in 12-step recovery and not betray. the 11th tradition of anonymity. What you can't say is the name of the 12-step group. That's when you get into trouble in terms of the 11th tradition. I'm also saying that because we need more people to not be anonymous and to show that long-term recovery works, or otherwise everyone will have the sense that if you have this disease, you're never going to get better. But fast forward to my story, I just felt lower than low. Five years into recovery, after I left Congress, I get a call from Speaker Pelosi, and she asked me to come back and speak to one of my former colleagues who was struggling with addiction. And it was so ironic that I'm the guy who felt so low. who felt like such a loser. But I had a purpose in that I could reach this former colleague in a way that none of their staff could, no one else who's just a colleague in Congress could, but had to be someone who had walked the path of being in Congress and struggling with addiction. That would be my secret sauce to try to connect with this person to get them to understand the disease of addiction and the need for them to get help. I'm only saying that because it doesn't matter whether you're a Congressman or not, everybody has a purpose. in helping another person. We don't know, but our own experience, whatever that experience is, there is someone out there for whom your experience can be a force for good, because you can impart how recovery can happen and how it worked for you. Not me preaching to them, this is what you need to do. All I needed to do is tell them my story, how tough and how I felt and this and that. And then how do I feel now? all they need to do is I need to be there to tell my story and then them listen, which they would give me the benefit of doubt because they could see me as a peer. But there are peers in the construction world, peers in the finance world, peers in the entertainment world, for whom that ability to reach someone who walks in the same industry shoes as they do and who would respect them because they know they're someone who could identify with their problem. In other words, we have a story within each of our stories, whether we're people who suffer from addiction or mental illness or not. we have an ability to help others. So I always say to people who come in the rooms of recovery, who just feel terrible, who feel like they've missed their life, their regrets, their kids, whatever their problems, you're going to be able to reach someone like no one else, because you share your story and it's their story. And that's going to give them hope. So don't think recovery is just about you. That's the magic of recovery. Recovery is not about you. Recovery is about helping another person get into recovery. And that's the spiritual dimension that I'm grateful for having because of the whole movement of 12-step recovery.

Adam: Patrick, I want to take the lesson that you shared, which is an incredible lesson, and broaden it to anyone listening, whether they're struggling with sobriety or whether they're struggling with anything in life. Everybody has a purpose for helping another person. I love that. Shift your perspective. And when you do that, when you recognize that you have a purpose and that you have the ability to help someone else, All of a sudden, you shift your perspective from feeling sorry for yourself to recognizing that you have value and that value can be applied in a very meaningful, impactful way.

Patrick: Exactly. When I've met people years ago when I was in public life, and there were more people alive who were around during my uncle's time, they all told me how good they felt about him because they felt they were part of something bigger. When he said, ask not what your country could do for you, what you can do for your country, everyone felt a purpose. They could do something. The Peace Corps, the Alliance for Progress, all of the various initiatives, and I think we need national service. I'm glad my dad's name is the name for the AmeriCorps, the National Service Corporation, which basically seeds not only AmeriCorps, but foster grandparents and Recovery Corps and Youth Mental Health Corps. So this idea, if we can help each other in the community, we can end the social isolation that we feel ourselves. So post epidemic, everyone's talking about this thing called social isolation. We don't have community as much as they did in a previous generation. But if we are about helping others, we automatically gain community in whatever way we can help others. And the irony of service is that I'm not doing this because I'm selfless. Don't misunderstand me. I'm doing it because I'm selfish. I get so much positive when I'm able to do esteemable things. I build my own self-esteem. And there's nothing better than having someone call you and ask you to do something for them that you can help them do. There's just nothing that feels better in this world than helping someone when they need help. And in the process of that, you get relieved, as we like to say in recovery, from the bondage of self. We're prisoners of our own worlds, where we're thinking everything is going wrong. And maybe a lot is going wrong. But if we can, as you say, shift focus, and look out for others, you somehow relieved a little bit from the burden of your own problems.

Adam: How can anyone optimize their own mental health and what steps can leaders take to prioritize and enhance the mental health of the people who they lead?

Patrick: Well, that's a big question with a very long answer if I were to dig into it. But I'll just tell you what works for me. I'm blessed. I have a spouse who I am very close to, who I honor our marriage. I mention that because one of the great things in recovery is that you start to improve all of your other challenges in life. And I'm also active in my Catholic church locally. even though it's denied communion in old state of Rhode Island because I was for gay rights and I was for a choice, denied communion. So I'm now in a new place and they're very welcoming. I don't know if they know my political background, how I voted, but I do the seven deadly sins, pride, anger, envy, greed, lust, gluttony, sloth. These are things that I got to keep in balance or else I'll feel so much shame that I'll go out and drink and drug again, right? So if people want to help their mental health, I've got an ASAM doc that makes sure I don't take any mood or mind-altering substance. I take medication for my brain illness. But I'd say that the spiritual angle for me, which is reducing the shame, doing the next right thing, confessing my sins, so to speak—I do that with my priest and with my fellows in recovery. trusted close my friends makes me just a better person. I know I'm able to feel lighter. I know I don't have that heaviness in life. So I'm able to be there for my wife. I don't compartmentalize that in my life. I've got these five kids who are amazing, and I count them as blessings every night when I pray. I say prayers with them. I take them outside. I know that the environment outdoors really helps your mental health. I'm lucky to live at the shore, so I got the ocean nearby, and I work out. When I get up, I exercise. That helps me reduce stress. If I can do those things, hold my family, get a good night's sleep, exercise, I have to tell you, I'm 90% on track for not making a self-destructive decision. When I make self-destructive decisions, usually it's because I'm overly tired, hungry, angry, lonely. These are the vulnerable spots where you start to make impulsive decisions that can come back and haunt you. So I got to stay on the balance beam, as they say, and I got to take an inventory, as I say, of all my character defects and see how much I'm engaging in any of them so that I can be mindful to back off because it's threatening to my recovery.

Adam: And for anyone listening to this conversation who's in a leadership position, thinking about how do I optimize the mental health of the people who I'm leading, it's really taking all the advice and insights that you just shared and thinking about How do I create an environment that allows the people in my organization to be best positioned to show up every day and not have to worry about all the other stuff that we're talking about? How can everyone show up and be in a position to succeed, be in a position to thrive?

Patrick: Again, I think you can't help people if you don't have something yourself. You've got to have something of your own going in order for you to be able to be of value to others. And being spiritually fit, which is, I think, mentally fit, emotionally fit, physically fit, I think then you're able to do things for people. And people pick up on it. People implicitly know whether someone's on or not, and you're able to just be more present and pick up things that people notice. People really notice. I tell my kids now, look them in the eye. I said, now before we leave, make sure you say thank you. The other day I was telling my son because I was far away from him, but he didn't know I was watching. I heard him say thank you to the host. He was at a little birthday party. And he got back in the car and I said, listen, buddy, because I try to give him positive reinforcement. Well done on the thank you. That's so strong. They're going to want to have you over more often because they see you as a nice guy. And he said, Daddy, I know. He said, that's why I say thank you to the basketball coach because I want him to put me in and have more play. And I'm thinking, this kid's already got it. You want results in life. Be nice and good to other people and wait until you see the world open up to you.

Adam: Wow, I should have your kid on the podcast. We're talking a little bit about your son. We were talking a little bit about your dad. There was an expectation that your dad would carry on the legacy of his brothers and become president. That never happened. But instead, he became one of the greatest senators in modern U.S. history. There was an expectation that you would carry on the family legacy in electoral politics. You were a congressman. There was talk of you running for Senate, running for governor. And the idea was that you would be the next Kennedy to carry on the mantle in national politics. But you took on a different path. And instead, this path has been way more impactful, way more influential. You've become a leader in the world of mental health advocacy. And it's been a different path than what was expected of you, but it's been a better path and a more impactful path for you. How did you discover the right path for you? And how can anyone find the path that is right for them?

Patrick: Well, first of all, we don't control the future. And as much as we try, it's beyond our control. So I would have preferred to be a senator, governor, president. That wasn't in the cards for me. The best thing that happened to me is one, the guy that I was in drug rehab with spilled the beans and sold his story of being with me in drug rehab to the National Enquirer in my second term of office. And I was humiliated, felt shamed, thought my whole political career was over. And what happened? I got reelected by the biggest margin ever in the next campaign because no one really wanted to be part of anybody that was ratting on anyone else. But what happened to me was then it put me in a place where now I could embrace the issue that I knew was as so personal, which, frankly, I would have never done had I not been, quote, outed by this guy. And so something that I initially hated is now something I'm so grateful happened to me because it literally changed my life in what I did. Back to when I left Congress, humiliated, miserable, can't get my act together, somehow sobriety doesn't work, I can't do it, blah, blah, blah. Turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me. I got into long-term recovery. I got married. I've got five kids. I've got a challenging and interesting life fighting for the implementation of the parity law. So all I'm saying is you can't be sure that what you want is really what you need and what will be the best thing for you. And I am glad, frankly, I'm so grateful to have been in public life spent six years in the Rhode Island legislature 16 in the US Congress had so many wonderful experiences and opportunities, but. My life would not have been as fulfilling as it has been now, being out with kids that I can go pick up at school, I can take to soccer, and all the rest, to have a spouse. That's not a life I could conceive of when I was in the middle of a previous life. All I could conceive of was the next offices, the next whatever. So the thing I would say to people is, we have our own plans, and then God interferes. God says, no, no, no, you're not in charge. At the time, you're like, oh, God, things aren't going my way. But if you're able to look back and be grateful, back to that whole shifting your perspective, you start to see where maybe your best-laid plans were not the best-laid plans for you because you're going to end up having another track in life that may end up being more fulfilling and you just can't know.

Adam: Patrick, what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Patrick: I am an absolute believer in gratitude and, frankly, prayer and trying to be mindful and listen to those around me so I can be responsive. I'm so grateful I have tools to counteract my counterproductive thinking patterns. So I believe we need literacy in terms of how our brain works. I think we need a driver's license for our lives to know how to identify our counterproductive thinking patterns, self-destructive behaviors, and then have the tools to mitigate them, modify them. I want to be part of trying to give my kids that and to make those tools more widely available. I get them bite into the fact that I'm a drug addict, alcoholic who needs to figure out how to live in order to survive. But the lessons and teachings of recovery help you in every other way of your life. if more people understood what kind of behavioral therapy and how you change your thinking by acting a different way. It's not normal for me to want to do the dishes, want to take my kids here, try to be super nice to my wife, right? I'm self-centered. But by doing those things, whoa, I start to change my thinking and I get a real rise out of it. My wife came down this morning, I had taken all the dishes out, I had put it away. These are small things, but life is made up of a series of small things. I got my kids' lunch boxes packed and everything else before I went and worked out. I felt better. The irony is, I know this is not an aha moment for anyone else, but just for me, when you do things that don't come naturally to you, where you're looking out for someone else, you're happier. Doing good makes you feel good. And I know that's obvious, but we get so trapped into thinking, this is going to make me feel better. This is going to make me feel better. And my experience is I almost have to do the opposite of what I think is going to make me feel better. If I do that enough, I just live a happier life. It's all been baked into all kinds of religions, and we're trying to think all this stuff is new. It's all been thought through before. You live a more giving, thoughtful life, you get heaven on earth, you get a happier existence. Our culture teaches you the opposite, reach and grab for more, worry about not getting what you want or losing what you have. That's obviously part of our cultural messaging. But the opposite can be true. And the only way you find that out is to try to do the opposite of what you think you want to do and see how it looks. And then you'll find the answer.

Adam: Patrick, thank you for all the great advice. And thank you for being a part of 30-Minute Mentors.

Patrick: You bet. It's great to be with you, Adam.

Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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