I recently went one on one with Jamie Hantman. Jamie is the author of Heels in the Arena: Living Purple in a Red/Blue Town, a timely book where shares practical advice on how to keep office debates respectful and provides her perspective on how they can even strengthen your team. Jamie has worked at the highest levels of government, including service at the White House and the U.S. Department of Justice. Jamie has spearheaded legislative strategy for the confirmations of two U.S. Supreme Court Justices and ran Legislative Affairs for the Department of Justice shortly after 9/11, working with a dream team of legal superstars, including Robert Mueller and Ted Olson. She spent time on Capitol Hill and K Street, including as an early DC hire for Google. In 2008, Politico named Jamie one of “50 Politicos to Watch.”

Adam: Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts and advice. First things first, though, I am sure readers would love to learn more about you. ​How did you get here? ​What experiences, failures, setbacks or challenges have been most instrumental to your growth and success? 

Jamie:  I was fortunate to grow up in a loving family in Central Connecticut.  We weren’t politically connected in any way, but my parents cared about politics and that clearly rubbed off on me.  I worked hard in school so that I’d be prepared when the right opportunities came my way. That first opportunity came along during college, when I secured an internship with my home state Senator.  I hustled and kept a good attitude while doing the menial tasks that are a part of every internship, and that opened the door to go work for the Senator once I finished law school.  

After my job in the Senate, I went downtown to the infamous “K Street” to become a lobbyist.  I was finding that less fulfilling than my previous work, and then 9/11 happened. Like many others, I felt the call to service.  I was fortunate to be able to get a position at the U.S. Department of Justice and work alongside so many American patriots. My time there was professionally transformational for me.  My role included many responsibilities I didn’t know how to do in advance and figuring things out as I went along gave me a greater degree of confidence that still helps me to this day.  One of my big lessons from that experience: never take a job you already know how to do on Day One.

Adam: What were your most interesting experiences from your time in the White House? What about working in the White House surprised you and what would surprise others? 

Jamie: I was one of President George W. Bush’s liaisons to the U.S. Senate, or as my boss David Hobbs described it – working on the ambulatory bridge across the great constitutional divide. That colorful description is apt – the job required resolving conflicts between Congress and the President and getting the President’s agenda passed.  The highlight of my experience was being the Senate point person for the confirmations of U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts and Associate Justice Samuel Alito. If you found old B-roll of either of them walking around the Senate office buildings going to their courtesy visits, I was the one trailing along beside them. It was an amazing front row seat to history.  I respect and admire each of them so much after getting to know them during the process, and it was a privilege to play a role in their confirmations.

One aspect of life inside the White House that I didn’t necessarily expect is that a fair number of people had varying degrees of imposter syndrome just like me.  I found that personally reassuring as I was first starting out. You come in fairly intimidated – and for good reason, but then realize the White House is populated by human beings with the same strengths and weaknesses as the rest of us, just trying to do their best. 

Adam: You worked with Robert Mueller while at the Department of Justice. What would surprise people about Robert Mueller? How accurate has the media’s depiction of him over the last few years been? 

Jamie: I’m sorry to have to give you a boring answer, but with Bob Mueller what you see is what you get.  The media portrayal of a hard-working patriot who puts his head down and gets the job done is completely accurate.

Adam: What are the best lessons you learned from Robert Mueller? 

Jamie: Director Mueller was focused on the mission of the FBI.  If doing the job right involved putting out information that would result in a bad press hit, he’d take the hit.  It wasn’t about him and burnishing his own reputation. It was about the oath he took to protect and defend the Constitution.

Adam: You have worked for and with many other prominent leaders. Who are the best leaders you have been around and what did you learn from them? 

Jamie:  I’m fortunate to be able to say that I consider each one of the principals for whom I worked in government to be a great leader.  The one I’d like to single out for you is Attorney General John Ashcroft. I wrote in my book Heels in the Arena about how I’ve never known anyone whose actual character and personality was so completely different from the way they were portrayed in the press.  (Fortunately, some of that is changing as reporting about that period of time continues to come out.) He was completely unaffected by his press treatment, because he was focused on his responsibility to lead the Department of Justice.  That in and of itself is a mark of great leadership and character. Going beyond how he handled that particular dynamic, he was the kind of leader who accepts you as a vital member of his team from day one. Absolute confidence and support from the get-go.  That feels empowering. Finally, the man knows how to give a Braveheart-worthy stemwinder of a motivational talk to his team.  I would come away from every interaction with him fired up to fulfill our mission.

Adam: In your experience, what are the defining qualities of an effective leader? How can leaders and aspiring leaders take their leadership skills to the next level? 

Jamie:  In my opinion, the most important quality for effective leadership is integrity. People are better positioned to thrive when they view their leader as honest, principled, and confident enough to prioritize organizational success over the leader’s perceived personal success. A leader who runs an organization through fear or by pitting people on his team against each other may be able to gain some short-term victories, but it’s not a basis for lasting organizational health.

I love your question about how leaders can take their skills to the next level because I’m a self-improvement junkie.  We all have different ways in which we can improve, but a universal piece of advice is that the process of improvement starts by spending more time listening to the people on your team.  Listening more and listening better is the gateway to discovering, via your team, the specific ways you can improve as a leader.

Adam: What were your most interesting experiences from your time at the Department of Justice? What would you like everyone to understand about the DOJ? 

Jamie: My time at the DOJ felt like a ride on a rocket ship.  I came into the Department in a political position, as a Deputy Assistant Attorney General for Legislative Affairs.  After only four months in the job, my boss moved into another position and I was named Acting Assistant Attorney General for Legislative Affairs, which means I managed the legislative affairs function for the entire Department.  It felt like being thrown into the deep end, but the experience of being pushed outside of my comfort zone was a very good one for me. One of the major projects I managed was preparing the Attorney General to testify for an oversight hearing in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee.  Those hearings can be pretty high stakes, with some members of the committee looking to ask the Attorney General gotcha questions – so the preparation is intense. There were definitely some attempts at a gotcha moment, but the AG did a fantastic job, as always. I don’t know if I’ve ever been happier to have a project in the rearview mirror! 

The Justice Department is filled with some of the smartest, most dedicated public servants I’ve ever had the privilege of knowing.  What some people like to pejoratively call the deep state I prefer to think of as the backbone of our system of equal justice under law.

Adam: Your new book focuses on how political differences in the office can be a collaborative asset and not a hindrance. How? Can you elaborate? 

Jamie: It’s no secret we’re living in a highly polarized time.  My book talks about both why it’s preferable to have civility in politics and how to achieve civility.  When it comes to the why, one reason that is certainly applicable to an office environment (private companies have a number of public policy decisions to navigate) is that decisions forged by compromise between two competing positions are likely to be more successful in the long run.  In our day and age where cable news channels provide a microphone to the most extreme voices, the idea of compromise gets a bum rap. But compromise shouldn’t be a dirty word. Early on in my career, a mentor explained that if you end a negotiation with a piece of legislation that makes everyone at the table happy about some aspects and unhappy about others, you’ve probably done a decent job.  Compromise – bipartisan – agreements are usually more durable, too. Just look at what’s happening with the Affordable Care Act. It passed on a Democratic party line vote and immediately came under Republican attacks that haven’t subsided. In contrast, the Patriot Act passed the Senate 98-1 and has faced much less of a repeal effort even though parts of that act are considered controversial.

Adam: How can we best navigate the heated political climate? How can political debates strengthen your team? What are your best tips? 

Jamie: Increasing civility in this environment isn’t easy.  I wouldn’t want to pretend otherwise. But the current death spiral in our political discourse is unsustainable and so we have to try.  Arthur Brooks has a great new book out on this very topic and his first piece of advice is to remove our contempt for those on the other side.  Contempt is about as destructive an emotion as you can find – it inhibits civil discourse and also happens to be corrosive to the person feeling the contempt.  Let it go!  

I have some experience navigating political disagreements.  When I was working in the White House on the Roberts and Alito confirmations, my now-husband was serving as Chuck Schumer’s Chief of Staff and working to defeat the nominees.  Needless to say, you can’t come home and talk much about your day in that situation. But when we would talk about issues, I usually found that I came away from the conversation with my arguments more refined and a respectful appreciation for his perspective.

Of course, sometimes the best advice is to just change the subject or do something else like sports or binge-watching a TV show.  Politics isn’t the point of life and it’s not worth losing the relationships that you value.

Adam: More broadly, what are your three best tips applicable to entrepreneurs, executives and civic leaders? 

Jamie: First, I’m a big believer in essentialism.  Figure out your top two or three priorities and execute on those things extremely well.  Don’t lose sleep over the rest of it. Second, your work satisfaction is in direct proportion to the quality of the people on your team.  I’ve had really hard jobs with awesome colleagues and a couple “high status” private sector jobs where I was miserable because it was a bad personnel fit.  I’ll take those hard jobs with awesome colleagues every time. Third, find time for quiet solitude. In a world of increasingly multi-tasking, bite-sized information consuming people, those who make the time to power it all down and reflect will find clarity and wisdom.

Adam: Is there anything else you would like to share? 

Jamie: Every single day is a gift.  Live that way.