I recently interviewed Ravi Saligram on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a Fortune 500 CEO and a former Fortune 500 CEO. Ravi Saligram is the CEO of Newell Brands, the parent company of some of America's best-known brands including Rubbermaid, Sharpie, and Crockpot. Ravi was previously the CEO of OfficeMax. Ravi, thank you for joining us.

Ravi: My pleasure and honor. Thank you for having me.

Adam: The honor is mine. Ravi, you grew up in Bangalore, you studied electrical engineering at the University of Mangalore, and you moved to the U.S. to get your MBA at the University of Michigan. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What were the key experiences and lessons that shaped your worldview and shaped your success?

Ravi: Sure. Indeed, Adam. That's a long time ago. I was 20 years old when I came to America. And, you know, everyone at that time from India was coming to the U.S. to do engineering, PhDs, etc. And MBAs were not that popular at that time yet, at least not in India. But my father, who was a general in the Indian Army, had started in management. And so, I had wanted to do that. So I came to America. And it was interesting. I applied to a lot of universities. And for some reason, I thought all the Deans in America were women. So I wrote this thing about the madam: “I want to come to America because they stand for Aphrodite”. And I thought this cute note would get me a huge scholarship and stuff. And it actually did at one of the universities, where the Dean happened to be a lady. “I didn't go there because my aunt said, “No, you should go to the University of Michigan”. And so, she and my uncle had to borrow a lot of money. And I turned down that scholarship to go to Michigan and I came to America. And so, that was an exciting landing. I remember going to my first class which was advanced statistics. I had not taken basic statistics. And in my arrogance of my youth, I said, “Hey, Indians. We're all good at math. I should be able to do advanced math”. Of course, I learned my lesson. And thank God because that is more intuitive and strategic. Maybe I was just not smart enough. Probably that was the real reason. But that, sort of, shaped where I went and so, in the early days, for me, the next step was once I got my MBA was to get my green card and find a way to pay off my loans to my aunt. And Leo Burnett was interviewing and they were giving out free apples for being an impecunious student. So the free apple sounded attractive, and I went to the meeting and was very excited about their vision and ended up getting a job for Leo Burnett. That was probably a big decider in shaping my career. That first job. Because I really learned a lot of things in a well-managed company that was the best ad agency at that time. And really, the whole motto was about reaching for the stars and service. It was very exciting. But I really learned about consumers. I learned about having a passion for creativity. And Burnett taught me about having a point of view. No matter how low you were in the organization, you were expected to have an independent point of view. And you should have been able to advocate it to the highest level person in the company.

Adam: I love that. Great advice. And you spent five years working for Leo Burnett. You then spent 11 years working for SC Johnson, eight years working for InterContinental Hotels, seven years working for Aramark, all before becoming the CEO of OfficeMax. Many years working for large companies. Looking back, what are the keys to rising within your career? And what advice do you have for listeners on how to rise within their careers?

Ravi: I think out of our time, one is to be able to take risks and shape your career. For instance, I realized that I really wanted to. I loved Leo Burnett and I loved the values. I really learned great marketing there. But I felt I really needed to have an overall view and wanted to get into brand management, which is why I joined SC Johnson. I was a senior account executive at Burnett, and had to take two position cuts and a salary category at SC Johnson as an associate brand manager, but I decided to build that because that was important for the long-term. So those sorts of decisions about looking at the long-term really helped me. By six months I think, or nine months, I got promoted to brand manager. So, I think taking the risk, and really looking at the long-term is important. But at the same time as SC Johnson, I was senior brand manager on raise. And I heard about this job in SC Johnson, Korea. And the only thing I knew about Korea was Mash. But I knew I wanted to be a general manager. I wanted to run a company. I had no idea where it was. I was competing with 10 others for Farsi near to me. But I got the job because I didn't ask about what the exact privileges were. And all I wanted was, I remember my boss, Tito, asking, “Hey, are you hungry? Are you willing to be a jungle fighter?”. I said, “Yes. Get me there tomorrow”. I got the job. And so that was that. Yeah, I got the job the day my second daughter was born. And she was three weeks old when we moved to Korea to a place that I've never seen in my life. So, having the courage to take risks. And having a very supportive wife helps because other spouses might have said, “Are you crazy?”. But she followed me and she's moved to different parts of the world. And so, I think having that risk-taking is important. The second thing that I'd say is over time, I think it's less about having that thirst of advancing your career, but really saying, “How do I build up skill sets that I don't have? How do I help my teams win so that it's not about yourself?”. I find people who are so worried about their next promotion, their next raise, their next opportunities, that it all becomes about themselves. But as those who care about their team's winning, about helping others, they get spotted. Because those are the leaders you want in a company saying, “Hey, are they going to lift other people?”. And then as you become CEO, you realize more than any other job, it's not about you. It's about your people. And they're looking for you to raise hopes to allow them to advance, to have a life that can get better and better. So, I think that teamwork, and being a team player is so critical, versus always saying, “What about me? What does this do for me?”.

Adam: I agree with everything you said. Starting with your second point. First, the importance of focusing on the success of others and the importance of having a team-oriented mindset. Great leaders intuitively understand the importance of building up others, intuitively understand that success comes when everyone around you is their best selves, you are your best self when everyone around you is their best self. To your first point, the importance of risk-taking, being hungry and being willing to go out and take chances. And I want to ask you, what advice do you have on how to know whether it's the right risk to take?

Ravi: I think it's case by case, right? Especially when it comes to careers. And the one thing I would advise against for most people is, don't take a job outside just because they give you 10 bucks more, 10,000 more, because the grass is always greener on the other side. I think, even though I worked for 40 years, and it ages me, I'm 65 and feel I can go on and on for many years. But I think it's so important to have dwell time in a company because when you're in a company, you're building up brand equity. Just like how you build brands, you build your own personal brand equity. And when things are going swimmingly, well, you don't need that equity much. But there will be a year where you'll miss your budget, there'll be a year when something doesn't go right. All the equity you built up you need so that you're able to move forward. The other thing is, as people feel more and more comfortable with you, that you're a good fit in the culture but also can enhance the culture that creates the next promotion. Because look, it's human beings, right? So they need to know this because corporations, obviously, want to help you advance your career, but they also want to do what's right for the company. And when those interests collide and align, that's when great things happen for you. So, I think when taking the risk, it's also important to say, “Hey, whether it's an internal promotion, whether it's external, especially on internal things, is this important for the company?”. There may be, sometimes, a job where you really don't think is the right one, or you may think it's a lateral move. But it's very important that if the company feels you're the right person for it, you bring the right skillsets for it, they'll ask you to do that. I think it's important to take that on because they've selected you and they have trust in you. And if you can deliver on that for the company, you know, leaders will remember that and say, “Hey, John did this for us. And he helped us out. Now, let us help John, or Mary, or whoever it is, in their quest, on the external side”. I will always be saying, “What will this add to your resume? Is it really helping create more new skill sets? Will it take you to the next job, but also the job after that?”. So I'm a big proponent of dwell time within companies. And rather than the first time, the headhunter calls, and you get excited, and they say, “I'll pay you a little bit more”. Building that internal equity, I think, really pays off.

Adam: That's great advice. And I love how you framed it around the importance of developing brand equity. You lead some of America's best-known brands. To that end, what tips do you have for listeners, both on the topics of branding and personal branding?

Ravi: Yeah, Adam, before I can, I will just say one thing about that last comment.

Adam: Absolutely. 

Ravi: Personal equity. And it goes to this: personal branding. When I was at Aramark, I was there for nearly eight years. I had been president of international and became the chief globalization officer. But I really want to be CEO. And I met an incredible person, one of the longest-running Fortune CEOs in America. A brilliant, brilliant person, Joe Bauer. And Joe was not ready to move on. He's taken up our mark, public twice and private twice. And he knew of my views and my ambition, that I wanted to be a CEO. When this OfficeMax job came along, and I had had other offers, but Joe said this, “They're not right, it's not the right time. Stay on”. And I stayed on. When this thing came, I said, “Joe, this is the right one for me”. And he helped me, which is, you know, extraordinary. And I said, “Joe, this is the right one”. And I wanted to be transparent with him and tell him that I was actually looking at this opportunity. And he actually gave me a good reference, which is hugely extraordinary. But that talks about when you build trust, and I said, “Boy, I've done everything I can for Aramark. I’m not sure I can add more value here at this stage”. But this helped me get to the next stage. And I have so much respect and admiration for him that he was willing to do that. But that speaks to building trust and equity and your personal brand in the company. And so, I just had to mention that.

Adam: I think that's critical to success and that's critical to effective leadership. We can talk for the rest of the conversation about branding, we could talk for the rest of the conversation about personal branding, we could talk for the rest of the conversation about leadership. But at the end of the day, it does all boil down to trust. Without trust, you're never going to be successful in business. You're never going to be successful in life. You're never going to be successful as a leader.

Ravi: We've got four values that we created, which was all about truth, transparency, teamwork, and trust. It's very simple; only four. We don't have these things written up all over the place. It's indelibly marked in our people because they understand it, and they are bringing it to life. And that thing about trust is so critical because the trust is on so many layers. It's trust between brands and consumers. We talk about how our whole purpose is about beloved brands that are planet friendly and create moments of joy and peace of mind for our consumers. So it's about trust. Externally, it's about trust for the company with shareholders. And I talk about always delivering on your promises when we do guidance. And Chris Peterson and I, my CFO, have been working on this. We've not missed our promises to the street. Any of the quarters in the last 10 or so quarters. So it's when you create that that means it's very deliberate. You take your word very seriously. It's about my business unit heads and about budgets, those are sacred commitments. Or it's about our people. It's about being transparent even when it's bad news. So, I think all of that leads to trust because when employees trust the company, and the company is more than just the company, it's actual people. For that item I should mention, when I started two and a half years ago, our engagement scores were fairly low because we'd gone through a major acquisition. The integration didn't go swimmingly well. So there had been a bit of churn and our engagement levels were fairly low at 45, very low. And when I brought in the consultants, the old consultants, they said, “It'll take you 10 years to improve this”. We just did a glint survey, including our factory employees, and our score was 75. At the benchmark of high-performance companies, we were about to benchmark on about 13 different scores, below on a few, three, or four. So it's because we are all living our values and we've created this bond. And that’s leadership. The leadership thing is not about being a big boss and telling people what to do. Leaders always, to me, in my mind, have to be that hackneyed phrase, if you will, about servant leaders. But you gotta live it. You've got to say, “Look, how do I add value to my people? How do I tell the truth?”. And I think all of this, which is extraordinary, that in two and a half years, and it's not just me, it's my whole team, my business unit leaders, my functional leaders, they're all living these, and it's been cascaded down. And that is creating just incredible trust with employees, which has allowed us to turn this company around after four years of decline. This year, we posted 10 and a half percent organic sales growth. That's because our secret sauce now is our employees. And that secret sauce is being nourished by trust and by teamwork.

Adam: What do you look for in the people you hire both at Newell brands and throughout the course of your career? And what are your best tips on the topic of hiring?

Ravi: Yeah, I think the number one thing I look for is integrity. And not only integrity in terms of honesty, but intellectual integrity. Are they intellectually honest? So that's number one. Number two, that they're not a jerk. That's a philosophy I've had. And, as you know, over time, to me, it's very important for people to work with people that they like and get along with. You don't need to be best friends, but you don't want to have to work for jerks. So I put a real emphasis on today’s lives and the values that we're propagating. Third, I look for someone who’s real, whatever the job is. I look for technical competence. Are they really good at what they do? And their track record? And then, how are they at leading people? And can they inspire people where the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts? In terms of their team, can they bring out the best in others? The higher up you go, it is not about being the best. It is bringing out the best in other people. That is so critical. And I tried to surround myself with people who are way smarter than I am, way better than I am in their different functions, and where I can constantly learn from them. And so, but then, I also look at when I shaped my leadership team, that they're all different from me. I do not want ‘yes’ men or ‘yes’ women. I like to get people who are different in thinking, who have served diversity, and whether it is people who lived in different countries.  And this comes from since I've lived in six countries. It gives you a very different perspective about the world. And I generally, maybe I have a bias, but I feel very strongly about this. I really am a big champion of women leaders. And after coming to know, for instance, I have promoted one of our leaders here, but brought in three females. We have four female CEOs and I just bought a new one for international, a fifth female CEO and completes the team. So to me, it's not about checking the box on diversity, but really believing that diversity really drives innovation, because you have a lot of different perspectives. So I'm passionate when I look at these things because if you get the right leaders under you, you need to spend a lot of time. When I interview people I meet them several times, because you need to understand what makes them tick, what is their legacy, and if they want to lead, if not only for you but all your others. I have them interview with all their peers, people that can be cumbersome in terms of going through sort of 10-15 rounds. You're meeting people, but by the time they come in, they're already a bit of a known quantity. And they fit right in and they can start contributing on day one.

Adam: That's great. And I think that that's great advice for anyone looking to try to hire the right people and try to build a winning team. The advice you shared on how you approach diversity and inclusion is so important. Diversity and inclusion is a topic that all leaders are trying to better understand. What advice do you have for fellow leaders on how to lead on diversity and inclusion?

Ravi: Number one, it cannot be slogan management. It has to be genuine and sincere. And diversity comes in different ways. And really wanting and believing in it. When I was in Korea I was the only foreigner when I joined there. And my leadership team spoke okay English. But most of my factory employees and my delivery guys, they didn't speak English. But you communicated heart-to-heart. And you really learn what it is when you don't speak their language. I had to learn Korean. And I gave my speeches in Korean. My accent was very good but my vocabulary was not that good. But my EA would phonetically write it for me. And they all thought it was great. But you learn what it means to be a minority, even though I'm the head of the company there. So that has given me a perspective of how important it is to be inclusive. So it starts with representation. Because if they're very few, then others won't come because they'll say it's not a safe place. But the more you bring in people who are different, whether it's color, whether it is race, whether it's gender, whether it's preferences, and also sometimes religion. Because it may be a White male. But if they tend to be, for instance, Orthodox, and they follow certain practices, being sensitive to that, and understanding that, and reshaping how you think. So it comes in different forms. And it's a learning process. It's never that anyone can be an expert on this. The most important thing is once you get diverse talent, you have to create the environment where they feel like they can belong, which means you have to work on making sure that everyone's voice is heard. And sometimes you have to be proactive to draw people out because sometimes they're shy. And I've known that sometimes I'm the only brown guy in a room, all my 40 years, so, you know, to recognize how lonely that can feel. On top of that, I'm a vegetarian. So it's quite different. I'm very sensitive to drawing people out, making them feel comfortable. And our engagement scores, we saw terrific, incredible scores. I feel I can bring my whole self to work and feel authentic. When you have that, people are not scared. And when they're not scared from the start, it's pretty important because for most years, bad news comes very slow. Good news comes at lightning speed. You want bad news to come to you fast so that you can act and take action. When you have an organization that's a safe place, good news, bad news, and media can use all of that to start flowing ideas up. But also great ideas start flowing up. Because some of the best ideas usually come from the lowest levels of the organization. Top people don't have a monopoly on good ideas. So you really need your company to become an idea factory. And you get that when you drive diversity of thinking, especially all sorts of diversity.

Adam: Ravi, I love it. Representation matters. Don't lead with slogans. You mentioned a word twice, which I think is so important for listeners to zero in on; the word sensitive. Great leaders are empathetic, great leaders are not afraid of leaning into their sensitivity, owning the fact that the more sensitive you are, the more successful you're going to be as a leader. So to your point, Ravi, when you're thinking about leading on diversity and inclusion, and if you're thinking about leaving, in general, be a sensitive human being, be caring toward others, be mindful of how other people in your organization are feeling. Whether it's their religious preferences, whether it's their personal preferences, don't judge them based on how you personally would feel, judge them based on how they feel. And that, to me, is really at the heart of great leadership.

Ravi: Yeah, I think when it goes back to interviewing for people’s IQ, that's easier to figure out, and track records help. EQ is a lot more difficult. And EQ is so important. And to really understand these empathetic managers. But is it sincere? And one of the things we talked about when we were laying out, sort of, we call them the Five C's. It's about C for a culture of winning, C for consumer focus, etc, etc. But I added one other C during the pandemic, which was about compassion, and another C on your conscience. Because I just felt it's so important to show you care. During the pandemic, a lot of people were scared, right? I mean, I was scared. But as a leader, you have to show that you truly care about all of your employees and seeing the decisive actions you take on their safety and their well-being is so critical. But I think this is also where body language is so important. And even on Zoom, or Teams, or whatever, you can make out when someone doesn't feel great. So you need to have that emotional meter and your antenna needs to go off. I always know when I have upset some of my team members. And it'd be great if I didn't upset them in the first place. But occasionally I do. But I recognize it. And I immediately go back afterwards and say, “Hey, did I, for some reason, offend you inadvertently?”. And I apologize. Let me understand what I said. Because I think then it diffuses things. I do the same with consumers. I get a lot of letters of complaints where they're so upset, that somehow consumer care didn't take care of them. And instead of sending it to some other people, I reply immediately to nine out of 10 letters. And first, I thank them for being a consumer and then really say, “I'm sorry, we inconvenienced you”. And the fact that I even answered the fuses, which really says that you care, and you have to in this world.

Adam: That’s so important. Own your mistakes. And, Ravi, I can tell you from my own personal experience as a leader, as an entrepreneur, whether it's leading other people, or just as you shared, in your experience, interacting with customers. In the early days of my business, we had our fair share of unhappy customers. And just as you did, I owned it, I responded, I found exactly who they were. First thing I did was thank them. The second thing I did was apologize. Third thing I did was try to figure out what I can do to make you happy. So I really love that you shared that with listeners.

Ravi: That's terrific. And one thing where you talked about owning it. One piece of advice I'd have for middle managers, directors of VPS, in fact, at all levels, is after you've been in the job a year, you have to get a 360-degree feedback. People are scared of it. My first 360 I'd been at SC Johnson. Yeah, I was 31 or so at that time. At 31, I was a typical MBA hotshot, thought I was God's gift to mankind. That 360 changed my life and my career. Because there were three pages. I remember Gail was the Head of HR and she interviewed 22 people for me and gave me the feedback. And the first three pages are glowing and all that. But there were two pages, where there were a lot of perceptions of me, that I came across as a smart ass, as a bit arrogant, and this and that. And at first I was shocked and didn't want to believe it. But over time I discussed it with my VP and that really reshaped my life to say, “Wow”. And I have been a big believer in doing it for myself  but also for my direct reports. Because no matter how old you are, you have to do it. And I've done it even as a CEO at OfficeMax for three years. You need to get feedback so that you continuously improve. You're never going to be perfect. Anyone who thinks they're perfect no matter what level you are, then you're in trouble. You have to learn, you have to change, you have to get feedback, and you have to improve. So 360s, I’m a big believer in that.

Adam: I couldn't have said it any better myself. Feedback is essential to success, essential to growth. The best leaders are lifelong learners. And before we go, I want to ask you one last question. And that is, how can anyone listening to this conversation become a better leader?

Ravi: There's so many great leaders. And I don't know that I'm an expert on that. But what I would say, Adam, is start with humility. And also, I think it's very important to be passionate, but also temperate. Because what really is lasting is when you make a difference in people's lives. You may get a big raise but the joy lasts one or two days. But when you make a difference in people's lives, when you add value to other people's lives, and people who are running divisions, who are presidents, or business unit CEOs, understand that it is not only about shareholder value, but also about stakeholder value. And we talk at Newell about being a force for good, and that we have obligations to society as well. So leadership is not just about driving your performance of your company. I mean, it's paramount, because you don't get the luxury of doing other things. But when you do that, also think about what you can do with your community. I think in our country right now, corporations and business leaders at different levels need to take that on, because there's a lot of things that we can add value to society as well. So, I think leadership goes on different aspects. And the higher you go, your success has to be measured not by your next raise or your next promotion, but how many people were you able to help get promoted or to get happiness in their jobs. And to get in terms of career, are you making a big difference in their lives and a positive difference? Because I remember serving on Eisenhower fellowships with the late General Colin Powell, who's an amazing leader. He always talked about how great leaders create great followership. So if you don't have followers, then you know that you're the pied piper. So followership comes when everyone knows that the leader will be a great advocate for them, will be leading from the front to take a bullet for them, and not put them out. And instead, when things go awry, the leader takes the blame. When things go well, he or she gives all the praise to his people.

Adam: Ravi, thank you for all the great advice. And thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Ravi: It's been my pleasure. And thank you for your wonderful questions. Thank you. It's been a real pleasure. 

Adam: Pleasure was mine. 

Ravi: Thank you. Onwards and upwards, as we say.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

Follow Adam on Instagram and Twitter at @adammendler and listen and subscribe to Thirty Minute Mentors on your favorite podcasting app.