I recently interviewed NFL Hall of Famer Ron Mix on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Ron Mix is one of the greatest offensive linemen in the history of football and was one of the best players in the game. In each of his first nine seasons, Ron was on the board of directors of the Pro Football Retired Players Association. Ron, thank you for joining us.

Ron:  No, my pleasure. Thank you.

Adam: Ron, I've been recording podcasts for more than four years now. And it's rare that I have the opportunity to have someone who like me, grew up in Los Angeles and went to USC. I am not your size. I'm nowhere near your size and don't quite have the athletic ability that you have. So I didn't play football at USC, I played intramural football. But you're one of the all-time greats at USC, one of the all-time greats in the history of college football. Can you take listeners back to your early days, what early experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

Ron: It's very hard to pinpoint something. But this is crazy what I'm about to tell you. But I decided in the fifth grade that changed my entire life and resulted in every success that I've ever had, marrying the lady that I've married and having our children. That sounds goofy. I was the toughest kid in the three grades of the fifth grade, primarily because I had been brought up in the first three grades in Boyle Heights and Los Angeles, which was essentially a Russian Jewish ghetto. My father was a Russian Jewish immigrant. At age 13, he came to the United States by himself and married my mother, who was the daughter of a couple of Russian Jewish immigrants. But in any event at the Jewish Community Center, one of the staff members there taught us all how to fight. On this particular day. I had a friend walk into school, and the school bus went by, and we were smoking cigarettes. All the kids, their faces plastered on the windows looking at these two kids smoking cigarettes. So, we get into school. And the teacher tells me, "Ron, the principal wants to see you." And I thought, oh, man, the bus driver must have reported I was smoking. I'm gonna have to stay after school in detention. But I got to the principal's office. And the principal said, "Ron, about a month ago, everybody took these various IQ and learning tests. And you did well. I on your teacher think that we should have you skip a grade and move into the sixth grade right now." And I being motivated by shallow things at that time thought, oh my God. Yeah, I'm the toughest guy now. But I go into sixth grade, all those guys have actual muscles, and my ratings are going to be way down. And all those girls are taller than me. None of them will like me. So I said, "I'd rather stay in the fifth grade with my friends." And so he said, "All right." And so I stayed in the fifth grade. Now here's why that was important. When I was a slow developer physically, I was a freshman in high school, I was 5'5", 125 pounds. So I didn't make the varsity team until my junior year. I was at that time 5'11", 150 pounds. And I didn't play at all. I wasn't a starter. And my senior year, the only reason I was a starter was the bitter end in front of me got injured, and I was the least talented guy on that starting football team. But every once in a while during that senior year, I do something really good. And that just made me think, man, if I keep working out, and try harder, I might be able to make the junior college team and then maybe go to UCLA and make that team. So I started working out as soon as the season was over. In those days, all coaches high school, college, and pro told players not to lift weights. They said it ties up your muscles, and makes you less coordinated. But that didn't make sense to me. It seemed a game that requires strength, I don't know how that could hurt. So I started lifting weights at a local gym. And I'd work out every day, running, I got guys to throw me passes. And then a streak of luck happened. In that year, our league and another league decided to have an all-star game for seniors that summer after we graduated. The coaches were stuck with me, because the best ends in our league were juniors, and couldn't play, and a very good one who was a senior decided not to play. So the coaches were stuck with me. But by that time, I was bigger, I was faster. I was now 6'2", and 180 pounds. And it was just unbelievable. I was the best player in that all-star game. And one of the outstanding players on our team was a kid from El Segundo High School. He was been recruited by SC. He said, "Ron, I've told SC about you. And they might be sending the scout to watch you practice and play." I just was stunned because no other school had expressed an interest in me. After all, again, I was a fairly lousy player, even my senior year in high school, and they did send a scout. And they ended up offering me a scholarship, the only school that offered me a scholarship. Now here's the point that I want to make. If I had not made that fifth-grade decision, if I had gone into the sixth grade, that means that that uncoordinated kid, as a junior, who barely made the varsity, would have been me as a senior. I never would have had those moments of success that would have inspired me to think maybe if I worked harder, I could make the UCLA team. So that was the most important decision I ever made in my life. Goofy, isn't it?

Adam: Ron, a lot of great lessons there. The importance of not being afraid to do something different. Everyone back in the day said, "Don't lift weights. Are you crazy? Lifting weights?" And you had the vision to do the opposite, to get into the weight room, to dedicate yourself to weight training. And that made all the difference. Another big lesson is sometimes you need a little bit of luck along the way.

Ron: That is true.  It goes back to Malcolm Gladwell's book, he suggested there are two things. He says one, of the most successful people's important thing is what month they were born in, because if they were born in the early months, January, February, or March, like I was born in March, then they are the older kids in each class. And so they're more coordinated, they're a little more mature, they get more attention. And that helps them succeed. And then added to that is if they put in 10,000 hours of work, or study whatever is necessary, these are the people who have the highest degree of success. And that worked out for me. A lot of parents now hold their kids back a year, so that they're older and more mature and have a better chance to get a college scholarship. And of course, I held myself back a year. But I also put in those 10,000 hours or more at work. And I did something else too, that I think was probably just as important. When SC gave me that scholarship. I decided I've got to make them feel they made the right decision. I owe them everything. And I decided to work out a year-round to give them every effort I could to pay them back for giving me a scholarship. I've told myself and I'm not going to drink alcohol or eat sweets for the entire four years. And I did that. And quiz. If I had a beer or two now if I had a Coke or a candy or whatever, it probably wouldn't have made any difference. But every time I refused to have it, it reminded me of my duty to USC to give them full value for what they have given me,

Adam: Ron, I've interviewed so many of the greats across all disciplines, business sports, in the military. And what I'm hearing from you is that it was a combination of dedication, focus, discipline, and putting in the time, that formula is what ultimately allowed you to attain greatness.

Ron: In the Pro Football Hall of Fame, I had been active in several things, to help Hall of Famers who may have been having some financial trouble or what have you, create some events to bring the money. So as a result, I would go back to the Hall of Fame every time they have a new induction. And so I got to speak to perhaps more high school and college coaches of Hall members than perhaps anybody ever. And let me tell you the one common thing they each said about their player that ended up in the Hall of Fame. He was the hardest-working player on my team. That's it. That's what it takes.

Adam: I love that. I also love that you've spent so much of your life, learning from others spending time around others who have attained greatness, who have been the best leaders who you have been around throughout your career throughout your life. And in your experience, what are the key characteristics of a great leader?

Ron: Well, I'd say John Hadl, who was a quarterback with the Chargers, for about eight years I was with them was an outstanding leader. And he would just take charge. Let me give you an example of it. In his first year with us, he was not the starter on the team. And he would come up just to mop up things when we were way ahead or way behind. He would just get a few minutes of playing time. And I remember a year when I was the captain of the team, and we were playing and just super hot weather. I happen to be in San Diego. And we wrapped up the game. And then John came in for a couple of series. And that's it. All we have to do is just run out the clock, the other team has no chance of catching up with us. But John starts throwing the ball. And I'm just exhausted, everybody else is exhausted. We're in the huddle. I say "John, just run the ball. Let's just get out of here." And he said, "Keep in mind, I'm the captain." And he's just a rookie. He said, "Shut up, Mix. I'm the quarterback. I'm going to chuck that ball. Wasn't that great?" I said, "You're right, go ahead." But he is this guy who would just take charge. By the way, you've never seen him run out of bounds if he was some play where he had to run the ball. He just did everything by example as you can imagine. We had another great player, Lance Alworth. In the Pro Football Hall of Fame, he was the first charger to go in the hall. I was the second one. We had a lot of great players on the team, by the way. But we held Lance in very special respect because he was just an unbelievable athlete. He was the fastest guy in the league. He can jump higher than anybody in the league. That's why his nickname was Bambi. He was a good-looking guy. He was very personable, very bright, worked hard all the time, and stayed after practice, catching passes from John Hadl. What I'm gonna tell you gives you the best example of what we thought of. So we're coming back on a plane ride from having an Eastern swing, we hit the worst weather you could imagine. The plane had just plummeted and was shaky, and I was convinced that we were going to crash. And then I remembered Lance was on the plane and I just relaxed. I thought God wouldn't kill Lance. That's what we thought about him. I'm in my mid-20s and I'm thinking like a child. God wouldn't kill Lance. So we're all right.

Adam: Ron, what you shared can be applied to anyone. Anyone can be a leader. Your title doesn't need to have the word leader in it. You don't need to be a manager. You don't need to be a CEO. In your case, you are the team captain. But the backup quarterback was the leader of the team because he led by example, he took charge. He stepped up, he stepped in. Anyone can do that. What does it take? What are those characteristics? You shared one that surprises a lot of people but is essential. And that's being a good person, being kind, being someone who other people genuinely want to be around, someone who attracts others by their sheer decency. And not only is that essential to being a great leader, that's essential to being a great teammate.

Ron: Yeah, I'd have to say that's right. Just about everybody on your football team, was a leader had high school and college, or he would not have been a pro football player. So it's interesting when somebody steps up to be a leader among leaders. I think it's easier to become that because a bunch of leaders recognize what it takes.

Adam: What does it take to become a great teammate?

Ron: You've got to work hard. You've got to show that you're dedicated, and you work hard. And you've got to show that the team is first. And frankly, not everybody is a good teammate. Sadly, there are times when on a road trip, a married man thinks that the marriage doesn't apply to that particular state we're going to. Sadly, some will use the opportunity when you're on a road trip to see the sights instead of focusing on the game. Fortunately, most players understand that they've got a duty not only to their team, meaning the management, but they've got a duty to their teammates. And fortunately, that weighs out much higher than a few strays whose careers often don't last that long.

Adam: Ron, in your experience, what are the keys to building winning teams and building winning cultures?

Ron: Well, first of all, building a winning team that starts with the talent of the players, you better have good management that has a good eye for talent, because that gives the current players confidence in their management. From that point, you've got to have good coaches that devise the schemes and recognize what each player's strengths are and be able to design plays and systems that'll make that work. We had a great coach in the Chargers called Sid Gillman. And my last two years with the Raiders and John Madden, a great coach. Coaches work harder than the players. I've talked about hours, they work harder than the players. Sid Gillman, when we're in training camp, he'd be up into the middle of the night going over films that we've taken in the training camp to be able to analyze the players and make corrections. There's just a total commitment of both management, coaching, and players.

Adam: And everything you just said can be applied outside of football, outside of sports, in any business that you're in. You need the right personnel, you need management that has that eye for talent and recognizes who are the right people that we need to bring into our organization, and how can we manage them effectively. You need the right coaches, you need the right leaders, leaders who recognize exactly what you said. What is each person's strength? And how can I manage their strength?

Ron: The players have got to feel that they're being treated fairly financially. Let me give you a great example of someone who was just so fair, Al Davis, now deceased as you know, but the former owner, General Manager, and head coach also at one time of the Oakland Raiders. And I remember with Al, he wouldn't start his contract negotiations lowballing, he would put out a figure that you immediately knew was fair. I'll bet there were very few negotiations going on then after he gave out a figure. Now, for instance, I'd played 10 years with the Chargers. And then I was out of football for a year, I had gone to law school at night while I was playing. So I graduated and passed the bar. But then they all called, the city had traded for me, I've been out of football year and he made a very attractive offer. The money I'm gonna say right now, you probably got that much in your wallet. Back then, it was big money for an offensive lineman. It was $45,000 a year. And then the idea of playing for the Raiders struck me good. And now I had been my position coach in my first year at SC when I was in the end, and we had remained friends. Anyway, if I had started as an attorney, I would have started at like $18,000 a year. So there was a lot of attractiveness to go back and play again. But I wasn't the same player. I've been out of football for a year and always have difficulty keeping my weight on and gaining weight. My weight had dropped from my plain weight of 270 to 225. Just eat normally, but I bulked back up and everything. But I wasn't the same player and lost a certain amount of quickness. I was still a good player to tell you the truth. But I wasn't a great player any longer. For the first year, I only started I think six games. And then the second year, I was with the Raiders. I was at the final cut. I was put on what was then called the taxi squad. And I remember the taxi squads when I was with the chargers, and they were paid very little money. I remember there was one time early in the Charger career when taxi squad players were paid $100 a game. I went and I said, "I understand I'm the taxi squad. What will I be earning?" He said, "Same thing. $45,000." And I was embarrassed. I didn't think I deserved $45,000. And I said, "Oh man, I appreciate that. But I don't deserve 45,000 in a taxi squad. Why don't you cut my salary by 10,000?" And he said, "Ron, we don't do things like that around here." That was him. After that, I left the Raiders. There was never a time when I contacted Al to tell him about a former Raider, who was having financial trouble that he did not come through. Not a single time. Every time he came through to help them out. That builds loyalty among his players like you've never seen before. He came up with the statement 'Once a Raider always a Raider'. That's the way they are. I mean right now, I was only there two years. And that wasn't the same player. They treated me like I was a raider for 12 years. Three times they've had me as their guest to Las Vegas where they picked up the airfare, and the hotel and watched the game from one of the executive suites.

Adam: How do you engender loyalty? It starts by treating your people fairly, not trying to nickel and dime those around you, investing in relationships, investing financially but investing in any way you can, something that you shared, which I thought was interesting. You mentioned that Al Davis was your position coach at USC. And years later, he's signing your checks. You never know where a relationship is going to take you. So, invest in it. Something else for the record is I don't have $45,000 in my wallet. I do have $100 in my wallet but that's only because I was cleaning out my office and I stumbled across $200 that was some were buried in there. But normally I wouldn't even have that in my wallet. But $45,000? Who has $45,000 in their wallet?

Ron: I'll bet a lot of guys, current players go to Vegas to gamble. I'll bet they do. I mean salaries now are just unbelievable. Like my 12 years of playing in the NFL, cumulatively total salaries during those 12 years is $300,000. Right now, it's three times that is the minimum wage of the NFL. Forgive me for saying it, but it might status at the time, I guess, is $10 million, $12 million, $15 million. I think it's great that the players are getting this much money. I mean, the owners are making a ton. They deserve it. The players are making the time they deserve and it has become quite fair.

Adam: And a big area of focus for you as a retired player has been helping out former players, you're on the board of the Retired Players Association. As a player, you negotiated your contract. As a retired player, you've been involved in several negotiations with the NFL, over several different issues to try to help retire players and their families. What are your best tips for anyone listening on negotiations, on dealmaking? What is your style? What is your approach? What can anyone learn from your experience?

Ron: Well, you have to have the facts in your favor, you have to put the time in to gather all the facts. That's one thing, and you have to appreciate the other side also, you have to appreciate them and give them respect. And I think that combines the last 12 years of my law practice, representing retired professional athletes, workers' compensation claims, which I probably represented during my time in 2000-3000 former players from all different sports. And so I know something as an attorney about how to build up the facts and put on the evidence. For instance, let me give you an example. Our organization, the Pro Football Retired Players Association, arose out of a settlement with the NFL called the Publicity Rights class action. And that was a class action brought on behalf of retired players, for the NFL continuing to use our names and likenesses for commercial purposes without giving us compensation. And the attorneys that were represented in the class action, they were suing for, like a billion dollars. Now I did some research. And that told me we had no chance of winning. Major League Baseball, I brought the same claim 10 years earlier and had lost. Also, several individual Major League Baseball players had brought the claims, they adopted out-of-class action to bring their claims. And they had lost. So I knew that if this went to trial, we would lose. And to venerate, there were a number of us who were reviewing things, and somehow became part of a negotiating team on behalf of the retired players. We were separate from the attorneys who were representing everybody in the class action. But we also had legal counsel, who had come to the same conclusion that I had that if this went to trial, we would lose. So finally, there was a negotiated settlement of $50 million. And that was upon the table. And I guess because I was an attorney, I became like the point man, for those of us who thought the case should settle. And believe me, when I appear in front of these groups of retired players, and give the presentation, half the time, half the audience would boo me because their minds had been corrupted by wrong facts. But in any event, we formed this pro football retired players association to negotiate and participate in negotiations with the NFL as a separate group away from the attorneys who were pushing the class action. And so there was me, other Hall of Famers, Jim Brown, Mike Haynes, Jackie Slater, Jack Youngblood Dave Robinson, and we were pushing for the settlement. And eventually, there was a settlement at the $50 million and so many retired players were just ticked off, about Haven't made*30:00 everything, and a number of them, opted out of the settlement and brought their claims. And I was rooting for them to win. But they lost because the precedent had already existed. And it was very clear that I had this gone to trial. Now, what was kind of interesting, $50 million sounds like a big settlement, doesn't it? But we're talking about taking care of 20,000 players. Eventually, our group, the players we took care of were players and their spouses over 10,000. And we were charged by the federal court, our group to come up with programs that would benefit the retired players. Well, we put in our due diligence, and we determined what was not being provided by anybody, by any retirement plan of the NFL or either benefit, and that was dental and vision. And so we provide dental and vision care for retired players and their spouses. And we also like to fancy ourselves and I think appropriately, looking out for players and other things and being a source of information for them to contact us on other NFL benefits, because it gets kind of confusing. We exist to try to take care of the health and well-being of former players. Now back to that $50 million settlement. Sounds like the NFL was generous. Well, you know what? They were generous because they knew they would win this thing if it went to trial. They also knew that the NFL needed to have a positive reputation among fans. Fans need to believe that the NFL exists, operate efficiently and in the best interests of players, and be concerned about their health and well-being. I think they thought $50 million was not very much. And that was true because it's only paid at four and a half million a year. So it costs each team only $140,000 a year. Most of the teams and owners are federal and state are in the 50% bracket so you get a tax deduction. So it costs each team $70,000 a year for all this great publicity. So the NFL is pretty shrewd, but we're able to do something important with the money.

Adam: Ron, a lot of great lessons there. Understand the facts, understand them intimately, and live in a world of reality. Focus on finding Win-Win solutions. Life isn't a zero-sum game. And negotiations are not a zero-sum game if you were able to come to this $50 million number with the NFL. And it was a number that ultimately, the NFL was more than able to live with you and former players by and large, we're more than able to live with. Not everyone loves the deal. But at the end of the day as a leader, you're never going to be able to please everyone. But you need to do what's right. Not what you think is going to make everyone happy at the moment. If you don't believe that it's in their best interest.

Ron: Well, that's true. You just have to be at peace with what decisions you make. And by the way, you better admit when you're wrong. And I don't want to sound like I'm right all the time, because I'm certainly not. But when you're wrong, you better own it.

Adam: It hits on a lot of key themes essential to effective leadership, self-awareness, being honest with yourself, and recognizing that we all make mistakes. No one's perfect. And the very best leaders are constantly seeking feedback. Interested in looking in the mirror and interested in hearing what others have to say. And throughout your career, you did something unconventional. You were not only a Hall of Fame athlete and one of the all-time great offensive linemen, but as you mentioned, you earned a law degree while you were playing. How were you able to balance being such a great football player with becoming a lawyer? Your nickname the intellectual assassin, what can anyone do to attain greatness not only in one area of their life but throughout their life?

Ron: Oh, that's a big question for anybody. I don't know that I have equipped answers. I can just answer it. For what worked for me, I didn't go to law school to become an attorney, to tell you the truth. I read a lot because I was interested in what was going on in the world. And then I read this article in Esquire magazine that said, going to law school is one of the great educations because it prepares you for business socially, it gives you insight into laws and the rationale about laws. It talks about deciding cases, what is right, and what is wrong, and it's just a good education to have. And so I went to law school just to get an education. I didn't go to become an attorney. But I was thinking to myself, man, I'm doing all this reading. Why don't I get a degree? That's probably a silly motivation for doing it. But I wanted to have received some tangible benefits besides just getting personally educated about various things. And so the University of San Diego has a four-year night school besides the regular law school, but you have to go during the season and the offseason. It wasn't that bad for me to tell you the truth. Because during the season, I would fall behind in my studies. But the season would end and with about a month before finals began, I'd have time to catch up. And during the offseason, rather than working out every day, I'd go to law school. So the real person who impacted me was my dear wife, Patti, whom I lost two years ago. And I was just hit with a pang of sadness, but Patti had to keep things in order. And it may sound glamorous for a lady to be married to a professional football player. But you know what? All of it means is, it's a lot of extra work. That means when we're in training camp, back then it was eight weeks of training camp, or we go on these road trips, it's the wife and mother who was stuck with everything, that I added to that by going to law school. So I don't know, I have this continuing love and appreciation for my dear Patti, who, like I say, died two years ago.

Adam: Balance is not an easy topic. And what I'm taking away, Ron, is to find people who can help you along the way. In your case, you had a great partner, develop a great support system, have people in your life, whether they're friends, family members, loved ones, partners, whomever they are, surround yourself with people who can help you because no matter what we're doing, no matter what we're pursuing, we're never going to be able to do this alone. Another thing I took away from what you said is when you have a love of learning when you have a passion for learning, it's going to happen for you. You didn't attend law school because you wanted to become a lawyer. You attended law school because you loved reading, you loved learning, and it happened organically. And if you love learning, if you love bettering yourself, you're going to become great, the most successful leaders. The most successful people are lifelong learners. Learning may start when you're in the classroom, but it certainly doesn't stop when you graduate from college when you get your graduate degree. Learning is a lifelong process.

Ron: That is true. I would like to just raise one topic, and that is the importance of kids staying active. They're being physically active or educationally active, but just parents raising their kids and getting involved in a lot of activities. Of course, athletics is great for kids and what's nice is there are so many different forms of athletics now, just about anybody can get active in a sport. No matter what their size, there's something for them. The neat thing about it is that immediately the kid has 30 friends. You're not going through school without a support system or group of friends, but it doesn't have to be athletics. It can be any type of club in school, educational clubs, drama, or anything. They must stay active. One of the main things that I've seen is, what a great role it's had in social justice and what it has done to diminish bigotry. And the first experience I had was at USC, Willie Wood and I were elected co-captains of the team at a time when 99% of fraternities wouldn't let either of us be members because of me being Jewish, and him being black. But they just judge people on performance. That's all you want to do. You just want to be judged as an individual. And for their teammates from every part of the country, plenty of them from the South, and whether South or North, many of them were raised in families that probably were bigots. And yet, they learned to judge people just on what their performance was and what their attitudes were. And it made us captains. I remember a neat story when I was a Charger. We were on an Eastern Road swing, and getting ready to play the Bills but we were practicing in Niagara Falls for a week. And we practiced in a high school Stadium on the Canadian side of the border. So we'd go over in two separate buses, the coaches would go into the bus and the players would go in a bus. And for whatever reason, the coach's bus was delayed, and we arrived at this high school stadium. And it's 10-15 degrees. There's snow on the field, standing around 1520 minutes, and no coaches. And finally, John Hadl, our quarterback said, "Well, let's do something to stay warm. Let's play a game of touch football." And Ernie Ladd, our 6’9", 340-pound defensive tackle said, "Yeah, let's play blacks against the whites." Everybody's laughing, the black guys run into one side of the field, white guys to the other. They wouldn't let me play because I'm Jewish, so I had to be the referee. But look at that. We could make fun of such ridiculous notions of the separation of people by race, and religion at a time. This is the 60s, the Civil Rights Movement had barely gotten off the ground. And yet we had come to know each other become so comfortable and I'll bet every prejudice anybody ever had just melted away.

Adam: Ron, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

 Ron: Thank you.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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