I recently interviewed Ron Williams on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is one of America's most respected business leaders and a former Fortune 500 CEO. Ron Williams was the CEO of the healthcare giant at one of the 50 largest companies in the country, before being acquired by CVS, and is currently a board member at American Express, Boeing, and Johnson and Johnson. Ron, thank you for joining us.

Ron: Well, thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here today.

Adam: The pleasure is mine. You grew up on the south side of Chicago, which isn't exactly home to many Fortune 500 CEOs. Can you take listeners back to your early days, growing up on the south side? How did you navigate and emerge from that background to get onto a path that allowed you to become the CEO of one of America's largest companies?

Ron: Well, I would first say that I owe my family a great deal of gratitude and a huge debt for the strong emphasis they placed on education. And I also owe a great many people a big amount of appreciation for their encouragement and reaching out and encouraging me to do things that I didn't know were even possible or existed in the area I grew up in which was highly segregated. The professionals that I did see were ministers, a doctor, a dentist, a social worker, and a teacher. And I really had no broader perspective of what opportunities were in the world. My father was in a parking lot business that was kind of parking cars, and overseeing the parking lot, ultimately became a bus driver. My mother worked as a manicurist. And so our dinner table talk was not about what happens in the courtroom. You know, what happened in the company today. But there was a very strong emphasis on education. And that really gave me an ability to see things in books that led me to be a good student, and ultimately led me to other opportunities. I think one of the things I really liked to talk about is the fact that when I went to high school, not one of the conferences in the highest school ever talked to me about going to college. Although I was in honors classes, it was an integrated High School, there were a very small number of black students in that school. And I would say that, let's just say that all of the oxygen around academic consular went to other students beyond us

Adam: Ron, clearly, this is a topic that you have a unique perspective on. Diversity and inclusion is something that we see in the headlines. It's something that is discussed in boardrooms, it's something that executives are trying to understand how to best navigate and grapple with and implement. But for you, it's really a lived experience. And I wanted to know if you could share with listeners, what advice you have on how to navigate the moment we're in right now, what does diversity and inclusion really mean? And how can leaders most effectively lead on this issue?

Ron: Well, I would say one, it is an extremely vital issue to our society. And I think the headline is that companies from top to bottom should look like the customers they serve. And I would say that I talked to many CEOs, and I talked to many board members and I am fairly critical of boards in the sense that boards have held the executives of companies to very high standards on achieving growth and earnings per share of achieving new financial goals and targets, new product introductions, innovation, a host of issues and yet when it came to holding companies accountable for significantly achieving the diversity and I mean, broadly speaking women and people of color, and being reflected by their customers, boards have not held CEOs to the same standard, quite honestly. If they were held to the same standard they held to for that, many CEOs would have been fired for poor performance. So I think it starts there. And I think the CEO and the leadership has to make a message that this is about broadening the competitive set of participants in the company on the basis of criteria that are relevant to the ability to do the job and to achieve the goal. One example I give, which helps communicate broadly, is there was a period in which to be a police officer. In many areas, you had to be a certain height, and let's just say it was, you know, 5’ 11”, six feet, whatever it was, at the time, if you're that height, or taller, you had a pretty high probability of having an opportunity to apply for and perhaps get that job if you had a pretty good record and a good reasonable aptitude. The minute it was determined that your height had absolutely nothing to do with your ability to do the job well, competition increased dramatically. It didn't increase fairly, because the real skills and competencies necessary to do a good job were redefined in a way that was linked to the actual ability to do a job well. And so if you are one of those people who would have had a pretty good shot at getting a job based on your height, you now had increased competition. If you didn't get the job, it might be possible that you might say, well, gee, I didn't get it, because I wasn't the right demographic. No, you didn't get it because the competition increased according to the skills and competencies necessary to do the job. And so a lot of this is really about increasing the competitive set, and linking it to what really is necessary to be a high performer in that role.

Adam: And bringing that back to your own personal experience. You shared with listeners, how coming from the south side of Chicago, you weren't privy to the same kinds of opportunities that so many of us are, what were the experiences that helped you ultimately land in a leadership role at Aetna? And what advice do you have more broadly for listeners on how to rise within their careers?

Ron: Well, I would say I determined early that the best way to succeed was to one, pursue opportunities that other people found attractive, that often were turnarounds. It was startups, high-risk situations. When a company is doing well, the candidates for the important opportunities are usually what I call the candidates separate from Central Casting. When a company is challenged, those candidates don't want to go anywhere near that job, because it's a high risk. If the only way to get that opportunity is a willingness to take that risk- and companies are much more flexible, and quite honestly, they wouldn't care if you were from Mars, if you could save the company, helped turn it around, and have an impact, then you set a much better opportunity for being seriously considered. The other thing I would say is I always tried to focus on opportunities in a situation where they were very clear metrics by which I could, in fact, demonstrate by results and achievement. And I stayed away from situations where the question of whether you were doing a good job or a bad job was a matter of opinion. When you had a metric, and you met 100 or 110% of that goal it was irrefutable that you were delivering fabulous results.

Adam: To the extent that listeners are trying to learn from your experience, what advice would you share? What would you tell listeners on how they can make it to the C suite or make it to whatever it is that they're trying to do in their professional careers?

Ron: Well, I would say there are several things that I think are important, I think one is that you have to figure out how to lead yourself because if you start out in the circumstances I started out and you really have to work hard to get to a horizon and then get to another horizon and then get to another horizon. And so really not accepting others' definitions of your capabilities and skills and attributes and looking to learn from everyone around you and people who are going where you have to go is extremely important. The other thing I would say is often people are risk-averse. And often the greatest risk we take is to not take a risk. I learned early that the best way to think about risk is to ask yourself, what's the worst thing that happens. And if you are in a job, and you're doing well, and there's no opportunity there, for whatever reason, if you take a higher risk situation, that gives you an opportunity to demonstrate what you can do and have impact. And if it doesn't work out, what is the worst thing that happens? The worst thing that happens is you can always do what you were doing before you just go do it someplace else. And yet, people often are very hesitant to take a risk. In reality, often the greatest risk that you take is not taking a risk. And I'm talking about risks that are reversible, where the consequences of not succeeding are maybe some temporary discomfort, but it's not a life-altering situation. Whereas if you take it and you're successful, it can move you much further in your career and demonstrate your record of accomplishment.

Adam: Ron, that’s such great advice. And just to double down on what you shared with listeners: Number one; the importance of leading yourself. Something that I tell audiences I speak to all the time is that before you can effectively lead others, you need to be able to lead your own life. And number two; the importance of not being afraid of failure. A key theme of so many interviews on this podcast, 30 Minute Mentors, is that if you're too afraid to fail, you're never going to be able to accomplish anything of significance. So just go out there, take a chance. And what's the worst thing that happens? You fall on your face? Well, you've learned many valuable lessons along the way. And when you took over as president of Aetna before becoming CEO, you went into a situation that was almost set up for failure. You took over a company that reported a net loss of nearly $300 million. Not easy by any means. And a decade later, after your turnaround, Aetna reported an operating profit of $2 billion. How did you turn it around? What did you do and what can listeners learn from that experience?

Ron: Well, I would say that the comment about failure is so true. I think people need to understand that success is a progressive elimination of failure. Literally, you fail your way to success. No one is smart enough, able enough, to just go out and be successful. If you do, you're incredibly lucky. But for most of us, you fail your way there. In terms of Aetna, I would say first that the CEO and the senior management president, we get the credit for doing while the reality is what we did was mobilize the organization around a clear and elevating set of goals and objectives. The organization was really ashamed of itself in the context of its performance. And the culture, the performance, had been a corrosive, blaming, shouting culture. A big part of the success of the organization was first sharing the facts about how we got to where we were, laying out a clear strategy of what we were going to do in order to transform the company's financial performance and transform the company's culture, and supplementing that. Supplementing that with the additional human capital. That was critical. Some of that capital came from people who were in the business already and were promoted and elevated. And others came from recruiting new people. We then develop a strategy based on going out talking to and listening to our customers and understanding the pain points our customers had because our customers didn't just want to be with a company that survived. They wanted to be with a company that had a strategic future about the direction of the industry, and a vision about how to help them accomplish the things that they wanted them to accomplish. So the first thing was really getting back to the basics, sharing the facts. And using that as a platform to build a high-performance values-based culture. That started with placing a strong emphasis on respect, on communicating candidly and communicating the expectations that we had for our leaders and foreign employees and how they treated each other and how they treated our customers. A lot of hard work. But most importantly, our employees chose to invest and engage and give their discretionary energy, which really fueled the company's long-term success.

Adam: Ron, there's so much wisdom in there that's applicable to anyone listening. You don't need to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company to apply the advice that Ron shared about the importance of customer-centricity. Without customers, you don't have a business. Great leaders are great listeners. Ron empowered his team. Ron's leadership team empowered everyone in the organization from top to bottom, to go out, take charge and to listen to customers and to empower customers. And Ron, you mentioned a couple of other really important points that I want to dig deeper on. You were able to turn the culture around, and you were really able to improve the human capital within the organization. Firstly, what are the keys to building a winning organizational culture? And secondly, what are your best tips on the topic of hiring?

Ron: I would say in terms of cultural transformation, one of the things that's really critical is to create a culture where you can have frank, honest conversations with your team and with the entire organization about the challenges the company faces, and that they're going to get straight planning. A turning point for me was very early in my career there, we had this huge town hall meeting and we were presenting the dire circumstances we were in and the plan we had laid out. And one person stood up and had a question. And I called on her and I said, you know, tell me about how long you've been here, etc? And she did. And she said, look, you seem like a very nice man. You know, you told us what you're going to do. But quite honestly, you know, we've had other executives come in and tell us how great things were going to be. Why should we believe what you're telling us and do what you're asking? And I paused, I looked around the room. And I said, I'm going to answer that in just one minute. I want everyone in this room to stand up. And I want everyone on the phones on video, get up out of your chairs and stand up. And now I want you to give this woman a round of applause for asking the question that was on everyone's mind, but only she had the courage to ask. And then I started clapping. At the end of that, I came back and I said, if we're going to succeed, no question is off-limits. We have to have honest, real conversations. If you think we got a bad strategy, say it. And I'll tell you why I think it's a good strategy. Or I may learn something from you and agree there are parts that need to be changed. Encouraging that kind of open dialogue is absolutely essential to transform a company to where it needs to go. I think the other thing is that a really honest talent assessment is the difference between activities and results. When I looked at the talent, when I did a talent review, I would say, show me the results that people have produced. And they would show me documents and say, well, this person was actively on this. And they did that. And they did this. Can you explain to me what the results were? And we found that the company had over-emphasized relationships in activity and under-emphasized results. The other thing was I took control of the talent management process. And when we would look at someone for a position and someone would say, well, you know, I'm not quite sure she's a good fit. And I would say, on what do you base that assessment? Well, someone in my organization was on a team with her on a project and went to a meeting and they told me. And I would say that's not how we make decisions. If you want to make an assessment of her, you need to spend time with her. You need to look at her performance. You need to develop a fact-based assessment. And the other thing that we did which was really important was, we started our executive committee meeting with talent, it was always the first thing on the agenda. And it's amazing how quickly the entire organization began to focus on talent, looking at our succession of clients, recognizing that the failure to have someone ready was a failure of the organization to develop the talent we had. And it was a failure on our part that we had to go outside unless it was a distinctly new activity we were engaged in.

Adam: What did you look for in the people you hired? Clearly, bringing top talent in developing top talent, having a culture that meshed well with the talent you brought in was essential to your success. But as you were focusing on recruiting talent, what did you focus on?

Ron: The most important thing is to get the requirements for the job correct. So often, the requirements of the job are a combination of true capabilities, folklore, and preferences. And, for example, I recruited a new CFO at some point. And when we first started to talk about it, everyone was convinced the person had to be a financial expert in our industry. And I said, I'm not so sure that's necessary. I have 50,000 health insurance experts around here. If somebody's smart, they'll figure it out pretty quickly. That's not a critical requirement. It'd be nice to have, but there are other attributes that are much more important- strategic agility, to be strategically agile, to be able to be a quick learner. And also the fact that the position is really, really important to them, that they take personal pride in what they do and how they do it. I think there's often far too much emphasis placed on the exact requirements that the prior person had, as opposed to what really contributes to success in the space. The best CFO I ever had, hadn't been in the industry, didn't know anything about it. And in nine months, was a world-class expert, and has gone on to become a CEO of another company.

Adam: Ron, that's really interesting advice. And I'm actually taking notes down because what is interesting to me, and what I wrote down is what is essential as a leader, you need to ask yourself, when you're bringing new people in trying to fill open positions, what is essential for this role? What is essential in the person that you're looking to bring into your organization? What do you need? What would you like? What can't you live without? And to your point, having healthcare experience and having industry experience is nice. It's something you might like to have. But is it essential?

Ron: You know, we find so many situations where we've talked ourselves into what we believe is required, you know, when I go back in time a bit, maybe your listeners won't probably won't remember this, but it was a time in which to be a salesman, you know, you had to tell jokes, you had to play golf, you had to be kind of the life of the party. Well, it turns out that some of the most effective salespeople in the world are good listeners, great at empathizing, great at building rapport. And when you have all historical criteria, guess who fits that criteria? Men who are occupying the position. When you really look at what it took, you find that capability in men, and you also find it in women. And so what happens is we talk ourselves into a historical legacy, part history, part preference, that causes us to eliminate a lot of candidates who approach it stylistically differently than the last person or what we believe is effective in the absence of any concrete evidence that the approach is effective.

Adam: That’s such important advice. And when you said that great salespeople are great listeners, are great at empathizing, great at building rapport. First thing I thought is that those are key attributes of great leaders. Great leaders are great listeners, great leaders are deeply empathetic. Great leaders love people- building rapport is something that is essential to great leadership. Ron, in your view, what are the key characteristics of an effective leader and what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Ron: One of the things that is important to be a great leader is what makes good executives, one of which is a desire to constantly be better. You know, I often talk about being 15% better. And it's not because 15% is a real quantitative goal, it's because any of us can convince ourselves we can be a little bit better next year with three or 4% of what we do. But if you really want to get better at being a leader, and demonstrating your performance and ability to lead organizations, you have to ask yourself, what do I have to learn and demonstrate this year in order to be materially and significantly better at the end of the year than I was at the start? So one of the things is really a deep commitment to self-improvement. And that means the ability to accept feedback, and the ability to process that and figure out what it is we need to learn. The other thing that a good leader has to do is recognize that while getting the work done is extremely important, showing consideration for your team as individuals is even more important. And I like to say that no matter how high your orientation to the task, or getting the work done, your orientation to the person must be higher. Now, no one ever accused me of not having a task orientation, because I get things done. But I also learned the hard way that you really have to have an even greater ability to empathize and pay personal attention to each employee, their needs, their issues, and to each person that you work with as part of your team. That's another fundamental key attribute. Another attribute a leader has to do is a leader has to really choose their leadership style. And when I wrote my book, Learning to Lead, I started out believing that the way to lead was the way I lead, which is what I call values-based high-performance values based in the sense that you're going to be treated with respect and courtesy, and dignity. But you got to be held accountable to the gold example. The goal was 100, you delivered 98%, there will not be false praise. I will say to you, I want you to understand you are a good person, you have tried hard, I appreciate that. I appreciate your effort. But you missed by 2%. What do we need to do in order to help you achieve that goal? We're going to hold you accountable, and we're going to do everything we can to help you. So that's the way I would lead. The thing I learned in writing my book is that people lead by fear. They lead by bullying, they lead through intimidation, they lead through financial incentives. So the leader has to pick what style they both believe in and are comfortable with and will be enormously consistent with because people want to know who's showing up today. They don't want to show up, you're one way one day and the next day you operate differently. So being consistent is really important. The final point I would make is that the leader of a large organization or a large team has to do two things, they have to define the reality of the situation- and that's where listening comes in; listening inside, listening outside, understanding the competitive dynamic. And then they have to develop a strategy that is practical and real, that will give the organization hope that it can be successful, and assume this position of leadership in the industry.

Adam: Ron, you shared so much wisdom there and we could spend another 30 minutes just talking about leadership. But I want to ask you a few rapid-fire questions before we go. And the first question along the lines of this being rapid-fire questions. What are your best tips on the topic of time management?

Ron: The best tip is on a Sunday, pay attention to what you have to do on Monday, what you have to get done that week, that month, that quarter, and that year. Take the time to reflect so that the urgent doesn't squeeze out the important.

Adam: You serve on the board of directors of three different Fortune 500 companies; American Express, Boeing, and Johnson and Johnson. What are your best tips for leaders on how to create successful boards?

Ron: I think the board is a team and that team should reflect the talents, skills, and capability that the company will need to implement its strategy over the next seven [to] eight-year period. The board is the only entity that transcends any one CEO in most situations and is there to really make certain that the company itself is well-positioned for the long haul. And so you need to match the skills of the board against the skills that the organization is going to need at the governance level. The board’s not management. It noses in and fingers out.

Adam: How can anyone be a great board member?

Ron: I think to be a great board member, you have to really invest in the company and understanding the business, understanding the strategy, understanding the CEO, and making what you can uniquely bring to your colleagues on the board and the company, the capabilities and observations that you have. But you also have to recognize that the CEO and management know infinitely more about the company than you will ever know. They worry about it all day, every day. You're there to be the coach, the observer, to give feedback. And to be certain that the company is looking at itself in a holistic way because the strength of looking at it all day, every day can cause you to look inward too much and not necessarily outward at all of the 360-degree dimensions that companies have to operate.

Adam: What’s the single best and single worst part of being a Fortune 500 CEO?

Ron: The day you become a CEO is also pretty good. I joke that- this is really a joke- that is partly true, though, that was the day you don't become CEO, you have this three-ton weight that magically disappears, and you really didn't know you were carrying it around. And then all of a sudden, the world is lighter, you know, it's like this weight has disappeared. It is an extremely challenging job. And doing it well is really, really important. It's important to the employees, it's important to the shareholders and it's important to the retirement use of the company. But that's really my observation.

Adam: What can anyone listening do to become more successful, personally and professionally?

Ron: I think the number one thing I would tell them is to be better, take being better as a really, really important thing. And it's not just about the business, it's about their personal life. It's about generally, many of us reach a point where we feel like we're there, whatever their means to you. And this notion of really committing to be better is extremely, extremely important. It keeps you growing, keeps you dynamic, and improves your ability to contribute to yourself, to your family, and to the organization.

Adam: Ron, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Ron: My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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