I recently interviewed Barbara Boxer on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today spent 24 years as a United States Senator representing the great state of California. Senator Barbara Boxer was elected in 1992 in what was deemed the year of the woman and served until succeeded by then California Attorney General and now vice president Kamala Harris. Senator Boxer, thank you for joining us.

Senator Boxer: Thank you for asking me.

Adam:You spent a total of 34 years representing California, in Congress- 10 in the House and 24 in the Senate, but you grew up in Brooklyn and attended Brooklyn College, which is the alma mater of Another Brooklyn native who knew better and moved to California, my mom.

Senator Boxer: Ah, there you go.

Adam: Can you take listeners back to your early days? What drove you to pursue a career in politics, particularly in a time and place when that was anything but the norm for women?

Senator Boxer: Yes, it truly was. I remember, as I was growing up, my mother who never even graduated from high school, she was an immigrant. She said to me, you know, honey, there's only one woman in the Senate, Margaret Chase Smith. Just imagine what an amazing woman she must be to get things done with all those men. And so, you know, that was about my extent of, really, around the kitchen table, learning about women in politics. But we were, I would say, you know, my dad was the only one of nine kids born in America, born in New York City. And I was born in Brooklyn, and he was the only one to graduate from not only college, but he went on to law school. So I would say even though my dad was a male, he was a role model to me for sure, because he did things that were not expected in his family, they were stunned. He also played piano, he was a Renaissance man. And so I became interested in learning from him really, and my mother, when I wrote my book, The Art of Tough, which is my memoir, I recognized the amazing influence she had on me almost more than my dad. So I have parents who love me. Anything was possible. Lots of role modeling around there. So I became an economics major with a political science minor. And I met my husband in Brooklyn College. He went on to law school as a political science major. So because of him, because of the family, because of somehow my own interests, I was kind of driven to, you know, that side of the world where it can really make things better and it's just one foot in front of the other. I managed to get into politics. The last point I'll make is, before I went to the house, I did spend six years in local government. So for any of your listeners, it's good to start locally, I think because you hone your skills, you make your mistakes, you learn what people expect from you, how to cope with dissent, etc. in a smaller playground, if you will, before you try going into, you know, a much larger type of venue like the Congress with their 435 people in house. Yeah.

Adam: What advice do you have for women trying to make it in industries that have been traditionally dominated by men, and what advice do you have for men in those industries on how they can be part of the solution?

Senator Boxer: I do not look at equality as some kind of difficult thing to achieve. It's so common sense. Everyone has to have a chance to live up to his or her potential. Male, female, the color of your skin, your religion, you know, are you transgender, are you straight, are you gay? What's the difference? We are all God's children. So the first thing I'd say to anyone listening a male or female who has dreams, you just go for them, and know that there will be huge setbacks along the way, but never let anyone tell you, you know, you don't have it within you to succeed, because you do, everyone does. And in order to succeed, you have to have a couple of failures. I lost my first run for the Marin County Board of Supervisors, it humbled me, it taught me. And I read a very interesting article in MS magazine all those years ago in the 70’s. And they said, the difference between men and women in politics is the women give up too easily. They take it personally, when they lose. Don't take it personally. Abe Lincoln tried a lot, Nixon tried, you gotta keep it up. So I made a decision to try again, the second time after losing the first time it was a hard decision because it's scary, you don't want to lose twice, you know, after you lose once, that's enough. But I do think you have to have confidence within, because people will try to shut you down, hey, they will try to shut you down. And they'll try to, you know, put doubts in your head. So that's kind of the way it is.

Adam: That’s such great advice and advice that listeners of this podcast have heard from so many leaders in so many industries. Failure is a gateway to success. If you look at failure as terminal, you're never going to make it to the top. If you look at failure as an opportunity to learn, as an opportunity to grow, then that will give you a chance to become even better at whatever it is you're trying to achieve. And it's extremely important to listen to those around you as an opportunity to grow. But at the same time, not to be discouraged if someone tells you no. How many times have you, whether it's U.S. Senator Boxer, whether it's you, someone listening to this podcast, heard no and know deep down that really the answer is yes. And you just need to go with your heart. Go with your gut and push forward.

Senator Boxer: Wow. Yeah. And look, it's good to have a few people who believe in you, but you're going to hit that brick wall wherever you're headed. And that's absolutely true. And I almost think it's part of the journey. Because if you can't take some setbacks, you're not going to be good at what you try and do it because you have to, I don't care what you're going for. It doesn't matter what field, there are going to be disappointments, there are going to be setbacks, there are going to be days when you did the wrong thing or said the wrong thing. And you have to own up to that. I think it's very disarming. You know, when I was in all those years of politics, I won 11 straight elections after my first loss. When I made an error, I would just say, I'm gonna say the words no politician ever wants to say, I was wrong. And you know, people appreciate it. They do. But let me tell you, I had so many people come after me my whole career. And, you know, just saying women, women don't understand, you know, Defense Policy. They don't understand, you know, economics, even though I was an economics major, so much prejudice. And then when I had my kids, they'd say, oh, she's neglecting her kids. Not really. Not at all. So, you know it's very tough. But you do have to have that, what I call, inner applause

Adam: What does that mean?

Senator Boxer: I learned that from a psychologist who wrote a book about women who succeeded, but this isn't as applicable today, because women are much stronger, and much more confident today. But in my day, she interviewed a lot of women who had made it in politics. Remember, when I was in the house, there were like, 28 of us out of 435. And she found out what we had in common was this inner applause, meaning that even when people were yelling at you and saying, you're stupid, or you don't know what you're doing, or you should resign, which I had more times than I can count, you feel inside, you know, whether it's your mother, your dad, your teacher, your whoever, your friend, your spouse, your kids. They're applauding you for not giving in to this stuff. And you have to have that strength. And I'll tell you, it's really good. One time I went after Condolleeza Rice, who was a big cheerleader for the war, and people took the whole thing, the republicans out of context. I wasn't saying anything bad about her whatsoever. I just said that she and I didn't have anybody in the war. And I thought that brought us together. You know, she didn't have immediate family in the war and my kids were too old. And my grandkids were too young. So that and I was trying to make the case that we couldn't really feel the fear, you know? And so all they said, I went after her because she didn't have kids. I didn't in any way, shape or form go after her, that's the most ridiculous thing. And for six weeks it was barrage all over social media on Fox News, resign, can you imagine that? And I also looked at people and said, rally? Are you kidding? You know, but that's the stuff that you get, and you have to put up with it, you know, and just say, I didn't mean anything like that. I don't know what you're talking about. And that's ridiculous. And that's the kind of way you have to fight with the truth. And with determination,

Adam: You shared so much great wisdom for listeners, and I want to highlight a couple of really important points. Number one, any great leader has to have humility, has to be able to admit his or her mistakes, no one is right all the time. And you have to be able to admit that you're wrong. At the same time, it's incredibly important to have a core set of values, and to stand by them, to strengthen your convictions. And the way that you laid out the importance of balancing the two, it's not one or the other. It's having both. And to that end, I wanted to ask you, what do you believe are the key characteristics of an effective leader and how can anyone listening to this conversation become a better leader?

Senator Boxer: Well, that's a great question. I think any great leader, or any good leader has to be authentic. Do not become someone else just because you have a title. Or as I used to say, when I would mentor young people, don't try to be something, try to do something. That's the key thing. And when you're in this space in politics the whole idea is to make life better for people. So, be who you are. Don't push a policy you really don't understand or you don't really believe in it that much. Do what you know. You don't have to become someone else. You know, a long time ago, I was a reporter for a newspaper called the Pacific Sun in Marin County, California. It was a wonderful weekly, sort of a progressive newspaper. And it was a wonderful, wonderful one. And my boss, Steve McNamara, who founded that said to me, he said, look, I've never written. I haven't ever. I've written a lot of things, but I've never been a reporter. And he said, and I got hired after I lost my first run for office. So he said, here's what you do. He said, talk- and these are the days of the typewriter.

Adam: What is a typewriter?

Senator Boxer: Oh, there you go. Stop, stop, you put the paper in any system. Just talk to it. Like you're making it. Don't worry about fancy words, don't worry about, you know, being someone else. Write the way you speak. It was the most wonderful advice I ever had. So every speech I ever gave, every book I ever wrote, have written for, just be who you are, for better or for worse, you're not going to be the world's greatest writer, you know, you're not going to be you know, Ernest Hemingway or somebody else, but you're going to be you. And it's going to make sense. And you are imparting, you know, the things that you know, so to sum it up a great leader, a good leader, you have to be true to yourself, be authentic, don't be a phony. People spot it a mile away.

Adam: I could not agree with you more. And you've been around some of the most prominent political leaders, if not all of the most prominent political leaders of our day. Who are the best leaders that you've been around and what did you learn from them?

Senator Boxer: Well, that's another incredible question, because everyone leads differently, and they all are terrific. So I can't say this one's better, but they all had different styles of leadership. You know, let's just start with our President Joe Biden. I served with him for so many years in the United States Senate. And I supported him when he ran way back in the 80’s. The first time, so I’ve known him over time. He is super authentic, very authentic. We go back to that word. You know, he's forever always remembering what his mom said. What his dad said. I heard recently, he said to me, my mom always used to say, who died and made him boss. He used that expression. And I laughed so hard because my mom used to say that- who died and made her boss. Like, he tells a story about his dad walking up the steps and telling him, sweetheart, I lost my job, I have to move, but we will move together, but don't worry, it's gonna be okay. And he said, so I know what it means when you lose the dignity of having a job. And so I think if you watch Joe Biden he's, to me, a great, great leader in the sense that he knows where he's from, he connects with people so beautifully, then, you know? I had the joy of serving with Barack Obama when he was president, and I was in the Senate, and I served with him in the Senate. And he's a different kind of leader. He is also authentic, but I think his incredible style is to lift everybody up on as high as they can go and reach for the best in us, you know, and just see the world a certain way. So I could do that with every single president I ever served with- Ronald Reagan, who said- I didn't agree with him, you know, probably 80% of the time, I did not agree with him- but he could communicate and make you feel really good about where you are. So leaders, you know, on the whole, I think leaders should uplift you, they should show you the possibilities, the potentialities and all from their own perspective, their own lens, what their life was like, bring that into it. I think that makes them really believable. And you feel really good about them.

Adam: I love that. And one president who you did not mention who I'm sure you just didn't mention, because of time, was Bill Clinton and I had Joe Lockhart, Bill Clinton's former press secretary, on the podcast. And I asked him, what was the single best leadership lesson you learned from Bill Clinton? And his answer really reflects the advice that you gave when he said he told a story about a phone call that he listened to involving Bill Clinton and Michael Jordan. And the moral of the story was that Bill Clinton took every opportunity to learn from every single person he was around. And I love how you view every leader that you've been around as an opportunity to learn how to become a better leader. Because you're right, every leader has his or her own style and strengths. And by taking the best in the people around us, we can become all that much better.

Senator Boxer: Absolutely. And of course, Bill Clinton and Al Gore when they came in, it was so different than anything Americans had seen, with two young leaders, and the possibilities they're in. And I think what Bill Clinton tried to do the best he could. And he did you know, he got us, he got us the best economic situation we've been in forever; more jobs created than I think any other president up to now. And, you know, he did it because his focus was on the families of America. His focus was just right there for average working people. And he grew up that way. And so he saw that as the major piece. And I think in many ways, Joe Biden is the same way. He sees the lens through, you know, his growing up years.

Adam: We're talking about Bill Clinton, we're talking about Joe Biden, the conversation could be about 21. Or it could be about 1992, which was the year you were elected, the Year of the Woman, which was a moment in history for some but you were right at the center. What drove that moment and what can leaders learn from that moment in time as they try to navigate where we are right now?

Senator Boxer: What drove the Year of the Woman was Anita Hill having the audacity to say, wait a minute, you're about to confirm someone who sexually harassed me, and you need to look at this. And the last thing she wanted was the pain and the notoriety that came out of that, believe me. But she changed the world by her honesty about that. And women throughout the country, women like me, who had thought about running for the Senate, jumped in, because what we had seen as we looked at the Senate Judiciary Committee was, we saw all white men that was it, you know, and there were no people of color. There wasn't a woman on that committee, okay? And so women all over the country decided to run for the Senate. And out of the nine of us who were in the finals, I think about four or five of us won. And we wound up with six, six in the Senate, and they said, oh, it's the Year of the Woman. It’s history. And we used to laugh, because now it's true, we tripled our numbers from two to six. But, you know, six out of 100, not exactly a revolution. So what did I learn from that? I learned that individuals can make a difference. There was someone, Anita Hill, you know, who had her own private life, teacher, etc. And she just said, I can't let this go. You know, it's the whole thing; see something, say something and the movement that came out of it. After that we passed the Violence Against Women Act, we did so many things to try and level the playing field. And we still are. And now about 25% of the Senate is made up of women instead of 6%, and 25% of the house. But truly, truly, truly, anyone within the sound of my voice. If you want a democracy to thrive, you really want representation. So really 50% of the people in any organization should be women, and within the women and the men, you should have diversity. So it's critical, or people just don't feel represented. And I can't tell you what it was like when I first got to the house. And they were, as I said, about 28 of us out of 435. We heard from women all over the country. Same way, when I went to the Senate, please speak for me, please speak for me, please talk about breast cancer. Please talk about daycare, please talk about all the things that we need- taking care of our parents and trying to hold down a job and all of these things that women in the nation look to us and Social Security. Even more important to women than men, believe it or not, minimum wage, more women than men live on that. So you know, representation and fair representation is critical to our democracy.

Adam: That’s so important. And to your point, it starts with stepping up to the plate, which is something that each and every one of us should do in whatever way we can. You spent 34 years in Washington and had very strong views on a number of issues. And they align with some of your colleagues and conflicted with others. You work with Democrats, you worked with Republicans, you fought with Republicans. Given your experience, what are your best tips on the topics of negotiations and deal-making?

Senator Boxer: I have a lot of tips on that. But I have to say one of the best deal makers ever is Joe Biden. And we don't know how all these deals will come out in the end. But we do see progress here and there because he comes out of the Senate and he recognizes what I recognized right away. If you don't get Republicans on your side, if you're a Democrat, if there’s enough of them, you're just doomed. You're not going to make it. So I learned and you know, the best lessons I learned were, number one, walk in somebody else's shoes, and know how far you can take them because everybody's got a red line. You know, I had shared my leadership of the Environment and Public Works Committee for many years with Jim Inhofe was my opposite in every way you can imagine. He was from Oklahoma, he believed that the government should only do a couple of things. One of them was the military. The other was infrastructure- the word of a year, right? And so I said, okay, let's try to work together now on the environment. I couldn't get anywhere near him if I said the words global warming, climate change. So what I used to say is clean energy jobs. You know, we got together on clean energy, and everything that I did with him. We always made some progress on climate, but it was disguised with words that didn't make him crazy. But what I wanted to say is right before I left, and I actually officially left in January 2017, the year before that, 2016, he and I worked together with Mitch McConnell, which was a total miracle on a very, very large highway bill and infrastructure bill. And the way you have to do it, again, is to see how far you know your negotiating partner can go and know what your red lines are. I had an issue where he wanted to go after truck drivers and say that, because there was a rule that truck drivers who were going across lines had to have brakes, had to have lunch breaks, dinner breaks and bathroom breaks. Isn't that shocking? And he didn't like that. He said, well let the bosses do what they want. I said, no, that's a deal-breaker. And we had gotten to the very end of negotiation. And this was the outstanding issue. And he wasn't pushing it that much. But one of his colleagues in the house of Republican college was pushing it. And I just hung up the phone and said, you know what? If you do this, I'm going to call a press conference. And we didn't get the highway bill because Bill Schuster said you shouldn't be able to take a bathroom break after driving eight hours in a car and Bill Schuester said, okay, I give up. That was it. And we got it done. But you can't be willing to give up everything, you have to have these red lines or you're not respected. At the same time, you have to, you know, compromise without compromising your principles.

Adam: And for the record to anyone listening at my organization, anyone who works for me is allowed to use the bathroom whenever they want. You mentioned a couple of your former colleagues in the Senate. I had a former colleague of yours, who you served with for several decades, Byron Dorgan on the podcast. I've also had a couple of other colleagues of yours on the podcast, Scott Patterson, who was the male lead on Gilmore Girls, which is the show you appeared on. I also had Rob Lowe on the podcast, who I know and many others know from The West Wing, in St. Elmo's Fire, but others might know from Parks and Rec, which is another show that you are on. So yeah, I wanted to ask you about your acting career and specifically about your classic appearance on Curb Your Enthusiasm. And if you can share how that all came together and what your favorite memories were working with Larry David and his arch-rival Ted Danson.

Senator Boxer: Oh, my God. You’re asking me about the most fun I've ever had in my life? Well, you know, representing California has its pluses and minuses. There's only two senators, there's 40 million people. And every day you face something that's going wrong. But one of the fun things is, you know, fighting for the industries when you agree with them. That provided so many jobs. So there was of course, Silicon Valley, all the great universities, and of course, the entertainment industry. And so just in the course of my political work, I got to know a lot of people in the entertainment industry who usually liked my politics and made a contribution or did a great event for me. People like Bonnie Raitt. And Larry David was one of those people. He and his former wife, and she was big, and is still very big, in the environment- Laurie. And so we got to know them a little bit and socialize a little bit. And then one day I get a call. Would you like it? He says, we've got a show that we've written in a place for a U.S. Senator, would you like to try it? I said, sure. Send me the script. Well, there's no script. Or he doesn't do this. So he says, well, don't worry about that. I'll tell you everything when you arrive. So there's literally no paper, there's nothing. And I'm used to, you know, preparing for things. And he said, just here's the thing, and I said, you know, I'm not an actress, I can only be myself. He said, that's what I want. You are yourself in this whole thing. And the story involves dry cleaners. And he says, just play you. Okay, so I'm standing there, I just know he's gonna come to me and in the show, he's going to recommend a bill. So he said that we're all rolling and we're in this set in a building and it's a party like a cocktail party and Larry comes over and says Senator Boxer, I'm so glad you're here. Well, thanks, Larry. What is it? I've got a bill for you. Of course, what is it? He says, you know, the dry cleaners always give you, you know, the wrong clothes. And it's terrible. You lose. I lost my favorite jacket there. It's just there needs to be a law. And I said, Larry, you see these pants, these slacks? He says, yeah, I said, dry cleaners. So that was the whole thing that I bought by mistake. My clothes. Well, that was hilarious. I am doing it fast. But it's very, very funny. And then at the end of the show, he said, well, you did great. Would you like to be at the end of the show where I get into it with Ted Danson. I said, yeah, he says, again, just be yourself. So we get to the end of the show. And the plot is that Larry's so proud of himself. He's given $50,000 to this environmental group, and they're celebrating him. And there's a rumor around the floor that somebody gave $100,000, anonymously. And everyone knows it's Ted. So instead of Larry getting all the hugs and love, Ted's getting all the hugs and love. And I make the closing speech and say, I want to thank Larry, but anonymous, you're the greatest. So that was kind of weird. But that's Larry David, he's so funny. And he just comes up with these things. And he wants you to remember, we talked about being authentic. That's his whole thing. You know, everyone on there is authentic, authentic to the character. And luckily for me, the character was a senator and was me. And it was easy, because I didn't have to be somebody else. I would have failed very much at it.

Adam: That's what makes Larry David one of a kind.

Senator Boxer: Oh, yeah, he's a riot.

Adam: How can anyone listening to this conversation better succeed personally and professionally?

Senator Boxer: Well, I go back to the basics, you know, be yourself. Learn, listen, don't try to get a title, but try to do something that wins people over, you know, whatever job you get be the best. Once-I hate to drop names, but so long ago, Steven Spielberg came to an event. And he said- my daughter was at NYU film school. Now she's a documentary filmmaker, so years and years and years ago. And I said to him, tell her one thing, you know, like, you're asking me tell her one thing that’ll make her good. He said, whatever job you have, whether it is the lowest job on the totem pole, be indispensable. People need to know they can count on you. And so that's, I really think it's important. And, you know, we're all going to be in a situation where we don't agree with the boss or we don't agree with a colleague. You have to deal with that very directly and very kindly. I often used to do things, you know, when a constituent didn't agree with me, and to come up to me and just say, how could you ever dare to say that or do that or vote that way? And I usually in the old days, when we didn't have to wear masks and be socially distanced, I put my arm on their shoulder and say, you know, I hear you and I care about you. But can you please understand, I'm doing this because I think it's the best way to go. I'm not doing it to hurt anybody or be popular. When I voted against the war in Iraq, 80% of the people in California supported the war in Iraq. And I got so pummeled verbally for it. And I just said, I understand. I don't know if I was right, but I have a feeling this is a disaster. And I would go through the history of Iraq and all those other things. So life is not easy. And there's going to be obstacles, but try not to lose your temper. I mean, I used to have the worst temper as a kid. Terrible. And I didn't understand why people didn't see everything my way. I thought I was right. One thing I learned, you know, being around people of different ages, okay, cause that's in politics, you are in different philosophies is, you're not right. You're not necessarily right. It's what you think is best. And normally, it's what they think is best. Now, today, it's a different story. I see, you know, nefarious things going on in politics- that's a whole thing for another day. But generally, you just have to understand people will not always see it your way and the way you handle that regard, whether it's a work issue or a personal issue is everything. And it's not easy. But I think that's what your show is trying to tell people you're trying to help them. And they should know. Again, what you said before you do not go forward unless you have to. You have to go backwards. And if you place this, it's just life. That's it. You know, we don't all come to this earth like we, you know, remember back to another life. This is it, and we're learning as we go.

Adam: Senator Boxer. Thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Senator Boxer: I really enjoyed it. Take care.

Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

Follow Adam on Instagram and Twitter at @adammendler and listen and subscribe to Thirty Minute Mentors on your favorite podcasting app.