I recently interviewed Byron Dorgan on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today spent three decades serving as a member of Congress, including three terms as a United States Senator, Senator Byron Dorgan spent 16 years as a member of the Senate Democratic leadership, and served as the chairman of the Democratic Policy Committee, and the chairman of the committee on Indian Affairs. Senator Dorgan, thank you for joining us.

Senator Dorgan: Thank you. Glad to be with you.

Adam: You were born and raised in North Dakota, the state you represented in Congress for 30 years, can you take listeners back to your early days? What inspired your interest in politics and in serving in elected office?

Senator Dorgan: You know, I don't really know. I was always interested in current events and politics and what was happening. And you know, I mean, I grew up in a town of 300 people. My first 18 years was in a town of 300 people. I graduated high school with a senior class of nine students, and I was in the top five and, and so when you're in the top five, have a class of nine, you're barely eligible to succeed someplace. And I just didn't know why I was always just interested in politics and public issues. And so I got involved. I thought I was going to be a businessman. And I went to school and got a bachelor's degree in a master's degree in MBA and thought I was going to be a businessman, it turns out, I was involved in politics for a long, long time.

Adam: Looking back, what do you think were the key variables to your early political success, and ultimately, to your sustained political success? What initially helped you get elected to national office? And what do you think it was that helped you get reelected every single time your name was on the ballot?

Senator Dorgan: You know, I think it connects with being authentic. I mean, I come from a Republican state. They're a state that has almost always voted Republican Presidents by a wide margin. And yet, I won my first race to the U.S. House in 1980, which was during the Reagan landslide. And in that year, I think Ronald Reagan probably had 65% of the vote in North Dakota. And I ended up running the first time for my remote congressional seat and one with 57%. So you can imagine how many people split their ballots. And there was less tribalism than I think, I mean, you know, I always started out in North Dakota, understanding there were probably about 10% more Republicans than Democrats. And about a third of North Dakota is more independent. But, you know, I think the key to success is, the answer to the question, do they know you? Do they like you, but they trust you? If the answers to that are yes, they don't care so much whether you're a Democrat or Republican. They want you to be honest and authentic, and try to represent your state the best way you possibly can.

Adam: And I think that's applicable outside of politics as well. If you can build trust, if you can build rapport, if someone likes you, they're gonna want to do business with you whether they're voting for you, or whether you're looking to do a deal with someone in just about any industry. And I wanted to pick up on the first point you made, which was, you said, communications, help fuel your success? What tips do you have for listeners on how to become effective communicators or more effective communicators?

Senator Dorgan: First of all, you know, it's really important to be able to write well. I've written five books now and published five books. And it's important to be able to express yourself and know how to write and then know how to speak. I mean in terms of North Dakotans knowing me, you know, I used to go to town meetings all across the state. I mean, every town I would show up on a weekend when we were in session in Congress going for the weekend, and I would do maybe six, eight or 10 town meetings in small towns and big towns. And you know, there you have to stand up and you have to speak about what you're doing, why you're doing it, what's important to you. And then most importantly, you have to listen and understand what your constituents believe and what your constituents expect of you. And there are times when they expect things of you that you just can't give. And I'll give you an example, if you don't mind. For example, the Supreme Court ruled that the burning of an American flag was free speech and therefore protected. You know, in my state The American Legion is very powerful with lots of veterans. And their number one issue was to amend the United States Constitution to prevent flag burning, prevent desecration of the American flag. There was no way I could vote for that. 70 to 80% of North Dakotans supported a constitutional amendment, but there was just no way that I felt I could vote for that. I was not going to start dealing with, you know, the first 10 Amendments of the Constitution in ways that affect people's ability. I didn't happen to think it was free speech, but still, I wasn't going to vote for it and I didn't. But the first thing I did is I called the American Legion Commander and said, here's the voters. But of course, they knew that. I'd like to come and speak to your convention, and tell them why I did it. And at least have them understand me and he invited me, I went, I gave a speech and said, here's what I did. Here's why I did it. Here are the reasons I think it's important to our state, to our country, and to veterans, especially, though I mean, you have to be authentic, it seems to me, and you have to believe in something. You know, I'm watching and I know you're not asking this question, but I'm watching what's going on in the Congress today. And just the vote, for example, that happened last week, in the Senate, on impeachment trial. I mean, there are people that aren't going to sleep at night, given the way they voted, because they knew better, but you know, they did. And I think people will take a look at some of them and say that that's not very authentic. We're not sure we believe what you did, that you believed what you did.

Adam: You referenced a couple of times how the political climate has changed. And one way it's clearly changed is that congressmen and senators are increasingly disincentivized to be dealmakers and for most of your political career. One of the most important attributes of a great senator was dealmaking prowess. When we think about the great senators of our era, Ted Kennedy, John McCain, no matter what your ideological views are, when you think of a great senator, you think of a dealmaker. You were a dealmaker, you negotiated multi-billion dollar deals impacting millions of people. What are your best tips for listeners on the topics of negotiations and deal making?

Senator Dorgan: Well, look, the lubrication of democracy always has been and always will be compromised. You can't always get what you want. But can you find it with a compromise to move down the road towards what you want? Ted Kennedy was the best I watched. He's a terrific legislator. He was a liberal, far more liberal than I was. I mean, he's from Massachusetts, and liberal. But Ted Kennedy was someone who wanted to make a difference and make a deal and reach a compromise. It’s just the way the system works. And now we have a circumstance where it's starting with the Tea Party, I guess, when they said to their constituents back home at a town meeting, I tell you what, I will never, ever, ever compromise. And so I will stand up for what I believe and never compromise. And when I come home, you hold me to that standard. And so going to Washington to promise that you would never, ever compromise, or that's the standard that suggests you'll never get anything done. And yet, that's what they promised. And so, I mean, I think the Congress has changed dramatically. And of course, the American people have changed. They are more tribal in terms of thinking, I'm a Republican, therefore, I have to vote- and that's unfortunate, because I think this is a country, it's probably pretty centrist, maybe center right at the best. And so we need Republicans and Democrats to know what they think and can give us the best of what both parties have to offer rather than the worst of each.

Adam: Given your background and experience negotiating multibillion dollar deals, what advice you have for listeners tuning in, interested in negotiations and in dealmaking that they could apply to their careers and to their businesses?

Senator Dorgan: Well, the key is to make sure when you're negotiating with somebody, not to leave them in a position where they feel like they have to believe they failed. You know, you if I'm negotiating with you and I somehow those negotiations get a bit more than then you wanted to give me and I gave you a little less than you wanted to get. I still want both of us to leave that bargaining table feeling like, you know, we made some progress here. And I feel good about the progress we made. It is not a case where when two people are dealing with each other, there has to be a winner and a loser. That's important for people to understand when you negotiate, to try to get things done. And so much of it revolves around relationships and in your tower, the Senate, the relationship building was essential to what you did and to what it meant to be a congressman and a Senator, and even beyond relationships with your colleagues, building relationships with voters, building relationships with donors.

Adam: What advice do you have for listeners on how to build winning relationships?

Senator Dorgan: Well, let me tell you, in the Congress, it's really interesting both in the U.S. House and the U.S. Senate. I discovered this, almost everyone who gets there now, that's changed a little bit, you know, it's changed with respect to the woman from Georgia, that's QAnon and so on. And he used to go up- but look, almost everybody that got there, or gets there has some skill in some fashion someplace. And, you know, you have to understand that in the House or the Senate, I would discover, or that person over there that wasn't involved very much in these debates and wasn't saying very much. All of a sudden, in this particular corner in that subcommittee has enormous power. Right? And the skill to wield that power on their issue. So I just think it's really important to understand who you're dealing with, and to, you know, to reach out and, and be friends with- John McCain and I were great friends. I mean, I've stayed at John's house in Arizona, my family, myself, and, you know, I love John McCain. I thought he was a really good legislator. But the same is true with Ted Kennedy and a wide range of other conservatives and liberals. It didn’t matter what party you were from, or what philosophy you had; I viewed most people as really good people with significant skills. And that's how they arrived in the U.S. Congress to represent the American people.

Adam: You voted more than 6000 times during your senate career. And I would imagine that a lot of those votes were pretty easy calls. But I would think that many of them were tough calls. And when faced with a tough decision, can you describe what your decision making process was like, and what advice you have on how to make effective decisions?

Senator Dorgan: Yeah, I mean, there were some difficult ones. It was not difficult for me, for example, to vote against a constitutional amendment to prohibit gay marriage. This long while ago, I voted against the amendment that became a commercial run against me in North Dakota and organised castaways, North Dakota values. I've never forgotten that, you know, what happens to you when you vote in a way that causes some people some angst. But is this issue of tough? Well, I served in the U.S. Senate. I lost a beautiful daughter to heart surgery. My daughter died, and I spent some time trying to determine how to deal with this grief. And how do I get through this and should I stay in the Senate? I just don't feel like there's purpose here. And so I got through that. I should just tell you, by the way, sitting alone at night, at 10 o'clock at night in the democratic cloakroom over in the corner by myself staring at the wall, because I didn't want to talk to people. This was a couple weeks after my daughter died. All of a sudden, I felt a hand on my shoulder. And it was Joe Biden, he'd come over to next to me and talk to me. And you know, Joe said he lost his wife and daughter, and son in a car accident at a very young age. And Joe said to me, I know exactly how you're feeling. And he said, your daughter's memory will live in your heart forever. And we talked then about purpose in life and things. I've never forgotten that moment, by the way. But I've also then told people later when people said, oh, that vote must have been so tough and so awful. And I said, now I know tough, and I know awful. And it's not that vote. You make a judgment of how you feel, what you're comfortable doing and then do it. But that's not tough. There are tough things in our lives. But that's not.

Adam: How did you overcome that truly, tough moment, that unthinkably tough moment? And listeners are going through challenges big and small. Hopefully, none of us have to face the kind of pain that you faced and that President Biden faced but we're all facing some form of challenges and obstacles in our lives and we'd love to know how you were able to overcome that and ultimately returned to becoming a great senator and now in your private life becoming a very productive private citizen.

Senator Dorgan: Well, there's never been a moment. I mean, there's never a day that I don't think of my daughter. And I had a really difficult few months, a really hard few months. And I had difficulty trying to get back into things, and I made the decision, you know, should I stay in the Senate? I made the decision to do that. But it took awhile for me to find my footing and find some ground. But part of it was the question in your life: what kind of purpose do you have? How can you rebuild purpose in your life when you suffer a significant tragedy? And I found that, you know, life is about successes and failures. And, you know, I, as you can well imagine, having been elected to the U.S. House six times, elected to the U.S. Senate three times. I mean, I've had nights standing on a stage with the, you know, with the music playing and the television and, you know, recording, I've had really wonderful successes. But I also have also always understood that it's not how you handle success, it's really, really important. It's how you handle failure, and how can you make purpose out of failure? How can you resolve it and move on, to continue to be a part of what you want to be to make this a better world?

Adam: So much of what you said, will resonate with listeners. I know that the feedback that I've gotten from so many of the listeners of this podcast is that people find it really interesting to hear from incredibly successful people across industries that, you know, you could be a public figure serving in Congress, you could be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, you could be a Hall of Fame athlete, but at the end of the day, we're all human beings, and we all face real human struggles. And to your point, Senator Dorgan, how you react to pain to grief, how you react to failure is ultimately what defines you. And in your case, you didn't let it define you. And I think that that's an extremely important example to follow.

Senator Dorgan: How much time do we have left? Let me tell you a bigger story. Okay. Let me tell you a story about how this started with me. I thought I was going to be a businessman. I got an MBA, went out of state and then worked for a large corporation for a brief period of time and came back to North Dakota. And I was at my grandfather's funeral. And someone said to me, we should go meet this young fella that just won the statewide election in the state capitol. He's 38 years old. He's from a town of 80 people, graduated from law school from Harvard. I went and I said, well, you know, I've got a job. And they said, go see him. So I went to see him. And he said, I want to hire a young MBA to come back to the office that I just won. And he helped me run these things. And so at any rate, I was inspired, and I moved back to North Dakota from Denver, Colorado, and worked with him. And he was a mentor. He was quite a remarkable individual. And my boss, my mentor, and about 18 months later, I walked into his office as a result of a call from his home. I walked into his office at eight o'clock in the morning, and found him dead. He had taken his own life. And it was unbelievable. I mean, you know, just unbelievable. And because he was a friend and a boss and a mentor, and so that's the tragedy I had tried to work through and deal through. And six weeks later, the governor- I was 26 years old- the governor called me down to his office. And he said, I'd like to appoint you to the unexpired term. And I was 26 years old, and I was a constitutional officer of the state, and from then to reelection, I was reelected to the house six times to the Senate three times. So my career, you know, this wasn't a case where I got on a track and decided I'm going to be a politician. It was a case where I was inspired by a tragedy that occurred. And then the governor first for reasons I don't understand. I mean, can you think of a governor appointing a 26 year old to a major state agency to run it? And yet he did. And that began my career, which lasted 30 years in the United States Congress and a few years in the U.S. in the state capitol before that. So you know, the other thing I would say to people who are listening, you know, no matter what, no matter what the question is, I hope the answer is always yes, I can do that. I can do that. Because in your life there are these branches of the tree where you have decision points, right, the decision branches, and you can always go back and re make a different decision. Most decisions are binary; yes or no. Do I do this or do that? Do I get married to this person or not? Do I go work in Denver or not? Yes or no? All those decisions, those decision points on that tree are all yes or no. And so when asked the question by people, can you do this job? Can you? The answer, I hope, is always absolutely. That was my answer. I mean, you know, I always figured, okay, so here's the next opportunity, I can do this. And I come from a town of, as I said, 300 people. A tiny little desk, in a high school senior class of nine to a desk in the United States Senate. That's pretty remarkable. And when I pulled out that first drawer, I found the names that they carved in the desk drawer. It's been done for a couple 100 years, and I pulled it out. And I see Harry Truman sat there, and I’m thinking, oh, my God, I'm sitting at a desk where Harry Truman sat. That's pretty remarkable.

Adam: It really gives you perspective. And on the topic of U.S. presidents, you mentioned that you work closely with Joe Biden, a friend of yours. You also were colleagues with President Obama. You worked with other U.S. presidents during your time as a congressman and as a senator. In your experience, what are the key characteristics of a great leader and what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Senator Dorgan: In almost all of them they had a presence of some sort. I remember the first president, when I was elected. In 1980 Ronald Reagan was elected. And I remember being invited to go down to have breakfast with Ronald Reagan, and went down and had lunch with them. And I remember he called me once in the cloakroom, because I'm sure Jim Baker was sitting there. Here's your call list for these congressmen. And so he called me in the cloakroom, and I'm thinking, oh, god, the president, President Reagan is calling me. So I went down, and most of the people that I have met who have been president of the United States have a presence about them.

Adam: That's quite interesting.

Senator Dorgan: They're, you know, Ronald Reagan was a vastly different guy than Barack Obama, just as an example. Or Bill Clinton. And yet, all of them had something pretty interesting and pretty special. I'm sure you would be aware that I have grave concerns about the president that just left. But other than that, even George W. Bush, with whom I disagreed a lot. I mean, I liked them all. I thought they all have something really interesting and really special.

Adam: In your view, what can anyone do to become a great leader?

Senator Dorgan: Well, that's a really good question. Leadership requires you to be involved. First of all, be involved in big and small things, but be involved in a way that you believe is productive, and that you believe is advancing things in the right direction. The easiest thing in the world, of course, is to oppose everything. And I tried to think of who it was- Mark Twain, who was asked if he'd be involved in a debate, at some point, they said, we were doing this debate program, we'd like you to be a participant. And he said, oh, sure as no problem at all, as long as I can take the opposing side. The opposing side will take no preparation at all. So you know, the opposing side of almost everything takes no preparation. That's not the side you want to be on. You want to be on the side that's building, that's creating, that’s providing opportunities. So that's sort of my view of how to approach almost everything in life.

Adam: I think that's great advice. I've asked that question to literally hundreds of the most successful leaders in the country. And that's an answer I have not heard. And I really appreciate that perspective.

Senator Dorgan: Well, you know, all of us have our own visions about how we got where we got and, you know, what success is and what it isn't. But I have been, you know, I told you a couple stories of tragedy, but I also should tell you that I have felt unbelievably important to have been able to do what I haven't done for our country. And for my state. And this is quite a remarkable place. And it is so important at this point for Americans to, you know, for all of us, each one of us to answer the question, what does it mean to be an American? I've traveled all over the world. And you go outside this country and start thinking about what it mean to be an American? Boy, that's a pretty special place.

Adam: What does it mean to you?

Senator Dorgan: Well, it means opportunity in virtually every way and we fought for it, we fight for every inch of it, but we've done it. Workers rights, you know, women's rights, civil rights, we have battles of all kinds of things to build and create and renew. And somehow we get through them and sometimes they're very difficult. But you know, I've written books about this and I've gotten into it and I think some of them are still available on Amazon and I just put the last one out probably a year ago or so. But you know, this is a great, great place. And I hope all of us understand, given what we've just been through, it's really important for us to kind of rededicate ourselves to figure out how we work together, and how if all of us work together. We can build something quite extraordinary in this country.

Adam: I couldn't agree with you more. A question that I've asked some of the other great leaders who have interviewed is on a scale of one to 10, how important is ethics to leadership and why? And literally every single person I've asked that question has said, 10. So firstly, I want to ask you, do you agree? And secondly, what is the biggest ethical challenge that you faced in your career? And how did you navigate it?

Senator Dorgan: Oh, boy, well, first of all, the answer is I do agree. Ethics is everything. I don't know if I can think of offhand the most significant confrontation with respect to ethics that I faced. Anyway, if I think of that, I'll send you a note. But ethics is everything. I mean, it's just, it's just unbelievably important. It's, you know, I mentioned the word authentic. If I'm a politician, I'm in front of 100 people, and I'm talking about things and listening to them. If they think you're not authentic, they have little interest in sitting there listening to you telling them how they feel and what they believe. So I think you have to be authentic. The people have to believe that you're honest and you're ethical. And that, of course, was part of the issue with respect to the last administration that grew and grew and grew into something very, very painful.

Adam: Your word is your bond, your word is everything. And I've been speaking a lot over the past year about how to lead during a time of crisis. And one of the things that I tell audiences that I speak to is that without the people who you're leading, trusting you, without the people who you're speaking to believing in you, why are you even up there? Why is anyone ever going to take you seriously? So it starts before you speak, it starts by building credibility, by being honest. So I could not agree with you more. We're totally on the same page there. What are your best tips for listeners interested in pursuing a career in public service? And what are your best tips for entrepreneurs and business leaders on how to best engage and navigate the governmental affairs process?

Senator Dorgan: Well, the six most powerful words in any speech is let me tell you a story. And I always felt that. When some businessman or businesswoman comes to me and wants to talk about their view and their interest in their companies- and boy, telling me a story is so important. And having developed a narrative and a story that you can relate to and understand. I mean I remember lots of people that would come in and they left. I tried as hard as I could to understand and sort of get through it, but they were never very memorable, because they didn't quite understand how to tell their story. We all have stories. So I think for someone who wishes to be involved in public service, or involved in politics, I help people, you know? You find somebody that you're inspired by, or somebody who really liked who is running, call their campaign office, say, I'd like to help. I want to be around to help you. And politicians love to have somebody say, I want to be of assistance to what you're trying to do. And pretty soon you're in the middle of the political system. And pretty soon you're successful if you want to be, if you want to run for something run for the school board, city council, county commission, state office, federal office, it just happens.

Adam: You've mentored many people over the years, including a couple of your earliest staffers who turned into your longtime colleagues in Congress. What can anyone listening to this podcast do to become more successful personally and more successful professionally?

Senator Dorgan: Well, you know, have a purpose, develop a purpose, and retain and have that purpose and decide these are the things that matter to me, and these are the things that I'm going to have an impact on. And it's just really important. I think it's interesting for everybody to feel there's something more than getting up in the morning and going to bed at night. What you want to do is, fill your day yes, with your job and your hobbies and so on, but also develop a purpose that you want to be a part of. I said the most interesting people to me are people in some cases, the people I agree with, in some cases, people might not agree with, but who had purpose in terms of what they're trying to get done in this country. I deeply admire that. And I think everybody needs to try to figure out what am I about? What is my responsibility as an American citizen? What can I play a role in? Is there something where I could matter if I got involved? And the answer to all those things is yes, of course. Absolutely. Just do it.

Adam: Senator Dorgan, thank you so much for joining us, and thanks for all the great advice.

Senator Dorgan: Hey, listen, I enjoyed it a lot. So, continue with this podcast. I'm glad you're doing it. And thanks to your audience.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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