Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: McGraw Hill CEO Simon Allen

I recently interviewed Simon Allen on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is the CEO of a multibillion-dollar publishing company and a leader in the space. Simon Allen is the CEO of McGraw Hill, one of the big three educational publishers, serving millions of educators and students around the world. Simon, thank you for joining us.

Simon: Adam, thank you. It's a pleasure. It's great to see you. 

Adam: You grew up in the U.K., and you've spent your entire career in the field of education, starting off as a publisher sales rep. for the North Texas area. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What were the key experiences and lessons that shape your worldview and shape the trajectory of your success?

Simon: Yeah, it's true. You're right. I don't sound like an adult. But I was Dallas, Texas-based for three years. And I got into the industry completely by accident. And I think there's a lesson right there and that you've got to be flexible and take opportunities when they come to you. And there was an ad in the Dallas Morning News that I have responded to, my wife and I have just recently moved to Dallas. And I thought this could be great. I'm an intellectually curious guy. I like to think I enjoy conversations with professors and academics across the world. So, let's apply for this. So, I joined as a rep. It was August 16, 1986. It's funny, I remember the dates. And I had the best three years. I found that I discovered an industry that I didn't really know existed. I found I was able to really enjoy conversing with many hundreds of college professors at the community college level, at the university level, at the graduate level, and medical schools and nursing schools, dental schools, you name it. And it was fascinating to represent a great company, which is now part of McGraw Hill. Where the value of really good content, and the education process providing tools, education tools for professors and teachers across the network. The value of doing that was very evident very quickly. And I found the conversations about different styles of teaching, different methods of teaching, different uses of our content, then using different parts of our supplementary technology. It wasn't for technology at the time. But it was really fascinating to be part of the education world. I got into it by accident. And I've been in it now for 36 years. And I've pretty much loved every day I've been within it. And it's a wonderful industry to be a part of. And it's critically important for education around the world, actually, that we do what we do, and continue to do it well.

Adam: I love that. And a question that I'm often asked and a question that I think just about everyone asks, at least at some point in their lives, is how do I discover what it is that I want to do with my life? How do I find what I'm passionate about? How do I find what I love doing? And you shared a couple of great tips. It starts off with being open-minded, being willing to try different things, in your case, you discovered something right off the bat that you loved. It also comes down to understanding yourself. You recognize that you like talking to different kinds of people. And this is a job that allows you to do that. And by going for it, you found something that you've been able to not only do well but do incredibly well.

Simon: Well, thank you. It's actually not so much talking to people, I actually enjoy listening to people a lot more. And what I find is if I ask the right question, and then I just sit back and listen and observe and think about additional questions and think about what they're really meaning and try to dig into discussions in a way that just brings out the conversation. That's what I enjoy. That's the intellectually curious part about somebody teaching principles and marketing courses or introductory accounting or geriatric nursing or whatever it may be, but getting enough understanding of how people think, and how students learn was so key. But that question is a great one. It's akin to the meaning of life, how do you find something professionally that you love doing? And it sounds trite to say it, Adam, but it really is a case of try it, give it a try. It wasn't my first role. I began, through my education, I did a business degree with a focus in HRM, Human Resource Management. I had a view that I was going to be an HR executive somewhere in the industry. And then pretty quickly, I realized, actually, I can be more impactful if they think more broadly. And I mean that with great respect to all the HR professionals around the world. And then also, I tried a year right after graduation to teach English, that's actually where I met my wife in Madrid. Teaching English as a second language to all of the government at the time in Madrid, plus a great number of nuns, and also a number of businesspeople as well across the city. That was great for a year. It taught me a lot of skills, certainly around communication, the art of communication, and it really is an art to do well. And then also, it helped me understand more about the English language than I ever imagined, which was a treat, also. But, I think, it's trying things and being open-minded, as you say, to attempt a career that you then realize this could be long term for me. But you don't know it at the time, Adam, this is not a, you don't make a 36-year plan. When you've just turned 25 years old, you don't do that, 24 in my case, and I think what I was doing is thinking, I've really enjoyed this, and I'm doing well. And that's great. And then I was promoted into a sales management role. I loved working with the sales team that I have, you live vicariously through your team. And I do that to this day, no matter what level I'm at. Living through the team is a privilege. And then you don't necessarily plan the next roll, you do well, and things start to happen. And you've just got to be open minded. And you have to be willing to take an opportunity and be flexible about what's required to do that. But when you embrace it, and give it your all, and who knows what could happen. You may end up being CEO.

Adam: I love it. You shared so many great tips there. The power of listening. Great leaders are great listeners. Great leaders are great communicators. I often talk about the seven characteristics of resonant leaders. And one of those seven is flexibility. The best leaders are open-minded, open to what's around them, open to possibilities, seek input, seek feedback, seek contrarian perspectives. And to that end, I want to know, in your experience, what do you believe are the key characteristics of a great leader and what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Simon: I think you've got to rely on the knowledge and experience of your team of your people. I think you've always got to make sure when you hire your team, and by the way, I hire all my team directly. I've never used a recruiter at any level, which makes me very unusual. I've been recruited, recruited the other side and then recruited, but I've never actually used the recruiter because I want to get to know the candidates and I'm talking to them as deeply as I can. And if I can catch them off guard, that's even better. Some of the best people I've hired have been in interviews on an airplane on the way from London to Sydney. That's quite a brutal one at 23 hours around the car park in a hotel in Columbus, Ohio. And you've got to be in a position where you can understand your leadership team around you. Then you focus on the experience and knowledge that they have. And you empower them. You let them do what they know is best. I try not to be very hands-on and talk to them every couple of days. Leading more when they need to, it may be every day for a while and then not for three or four weeks. But they rely on their skills to understand the business deeply. They rely on their knowledge to make sure they're making the right decisions. And very often we talk about some obviously detailed decisions to great depth to make sure that we've got the right thinking processes before we make final decisions. It's really understanding how your people work. It's being human to them, Adam, it's very important to me to be approachable. And that's because I've grown up in this industry. I find that both easy and delightful. To this day, I love to get out working with sales. As websites do it is, at least, wet during the college season and the school season at least three or four days a month still. And that approachability allows me to learn what's really going on with the company, and what's going on with our industry, there's a lot changing. And it makes sure that I'm very, very close to the detail, even if I just drop in occasionally. But it gives me confidence because of the leadership team that they have. It gives me the confidence that they are able to perform. One of my favorite words is execute. Do what you tell me you're going to do and do it well. Don't disappoint, be consistent and perform. And we have, and we do and I've got a wonderful team that delivers because they take everything they do very seriously. And very professionally. We don't always take each other completely seriously, that's a healthy trade. But we take what we do, absolutely seriously.

Adam: Lead by example, don't be afraid to get your hands dirty. Don't be afraid to do whatever job it takes to get things done. When you're an entrepreneur, you're also in charge of janitorial services. If something doesn't get cleaned up, you've got to clean it up. And something you shared, which I love, is your experience of finding someone on an airplane chatting with them and saying, I like you, I want to hire you, I want you in my organization. What are some of your best tips on the topic of hiring? What do you look for in the people you hire? And what advice can you share for anyone listening on how to hire great people within their organizations?

Simon: I am as interested in people that work for me and who I employ. I'm as interested in what they're thinking about at 9 pm as I'm at 9 am. I want to know what drives them and what motivates them. That's where when you think of the leaders that you have, and you go all the way down through the organization, right away to the rep level where I began, the more I know about them, that family, you can't do that with 4000 people, but you get a sense of what people are thinking about. And you really need to understand what drives behavior. What is it about an individual that's going to make them decide on the right path to take, what's going to make them loyal to the company? It's not about me. It's partly about the leadership team. You want to be loyal to your team. But you've got to be loyal to the company. If you don't have a passion for education and provide the right tools to help the education process, if you don't really love doing, you're probably not in the right business. Because there is so much to love about what we do. You need to feel that passion and the purpose of what we're doing. What I try to do when I hire is take people out of the meeting room. I want to get them away from the formal environment. I want to get them on that airplane or in that parking lot walking around. Some of my best walks along the beach in California, walking around a canal, Regent's canal in London, they are some of the best interviews. I distinctly remember a wonderful employer hired in walking around St. Mark's Square in Venice. And it was a great way to get to know somebody for three or four hours for significant roles. But if you take them out of the traditional meeting room context, and then you can relax, you know? Talking to them eye-to-eye for two or three hours, you're walking, you're engaging with other people, you're sitting down, you're having a coffee, a meal, you're seeing how they interact with other people, how respectful are they to other people, to the flight attendants or the way to install. What did they think about their own family, their upbringing, how they've gotten to where they are now, you know? By taking people away from a formal environment, and working with them, to understand what motivates them or what drives them. It's that kind of flexibility. That's when I look back at the people I've hired and there have been many, that's when I realized that when I make the best decisions. That's when I've managed to get them into an environment that is outside the norm, that genuinely tells me all there is that I can learn about them.

Adam: There's so much great advice in there. And I think what happens all too often, is when you're thinking about hiring you think about what are the most important questions that I need to ask in an interview? What are the questions that I can ask that will allow me to understand whether this person is a fit in my organization? When I'm looking at their resume, what are the things that I need to look for when I'm reading their cover letter? What are the things that I need to look for? But I think that your approach to hiring is so much better and that your view is, yeah, it's important. Yeah, we need to hire people who are qualified, we need to hire people who are credentialed, we need to look at resumes, we need to look at cover letters, we need all that. But if you really want to get to know someone, if you really want to understand if this person fundamentally is going to be a great fit within your team, within your company, the best way to do that is by getting to know them in a natural setting, in an organic setting. That's how you're going to really get to know them. That's how you're going to really get to know if they're going to be a great part of your team. Or they could be a good person, they could be a qualified person for another organization, but they might not be the right fit for you.

Simon: That's exactly right. And as you say, you've got to blend that, you've got to know what is their record of success? Have they been successful in their education? Or have they been successful in any number of different careers or positions that they've had? Is there a record of performance that is reliable, that's something that's critical and can you need? And again, when you blend that reliability with the individual, and you understand what makes them tick, you then get a completely rounded picture that too many former interviewers just don't see. That's why it isn't just new people you bring in Adam, it's also people who promote what, and of course, it's easier that way. You take them out of the office and you go somewhere quite different. And you walk in with them or you're in a restaurant, or you're on a flight and you're talking about opportunities that then they may have you look at the knowledge that they've gleaned in the industry, the experience that they've demonstrated. And then, willingness to step up into another role, step across into an adjacent role. That's how you really know how to place your pieces. If you think of the chessboard. How do you really position your staff in the best possible way to get the strategic choices that you've made as a company, and I've made a CEO? How do I position my staff in the best possible way to do as much as I can to guarantee success that really is my job?

Adam: I also want to highlight another point that you made, which I think is extremely valuable for listeners. We spoke about it a little bit earlier, but I want to reinforce it. Always be open-minded when you're meeting people. And I did an interview earlier on in the podcast with the CEO of Bed Bath and Beyond, Mark Tritton. And he was talking about how he approaches relationships. And one of the things he said, which I thought was extremely interesting, is when he builds his team, he conducts a lot of interviews. And he finds as much value in the people who he doesn't hire, as he does in the people who he does hire, because the people who he hires ultimately work for him and become a part of his team. But the people who he doesn't hire still remain an integral part of his Rolodex. And they remain an integral part of his life. They're a part of his circle of trust, they become a part of his sounding board. And to the advice that you shared with listeners, wherever you are, whenever you're meeting people, be open-minded about what that relationship can evolve into. That person can become a trusted adviser, they can become an employee, they can become something else. But it really starts with having an open mind.

Simon: I completely agree. And, I think, and I'm sure I'm not the only individual that's experienced this, but there are many occasions where you're looking for a certain role, you're hiring a particular position, you've narrowed it down maybe to three brilliant candidates, and you hire all three. You find roles in the company that you know you can't possibly not get that individual into McGraw Hill when I've met them, and I can see the value they can bring. And I'm thinking about how I can be creative in setting up my leadership team or setting up the next layer, whatever it may be two or three layers down. What can I do to make sure I can entice this person to come join us? Because there will always be a time when I need that additional strength and if I've met somebody that I know is a great fit, has the passion that we've described, has the right rounded criteria, intellectual curiosity that we need, as a company has a creative brain, maybe a technology expert. Now, particularly as we're looking at some of our product development, if I see somebody that I hadn't actually thought that I would bring on, I would definitely make a role for that person. Because I know at some point, I can elevate them into significant roles in the company. That happens a lot, not just when you're interviewing for a particular position, but think about M&A when you acquire another company. And you suddenly get to know individuals deeply within that group, you suddenly realize, wait a minute, they may be doing this role in the last company. But now, with that much bigger, there is something very different this person can do that happens to be recently in our international business, where we've taken somebody that's got a wonderful experience across the world with a focus in the GCC market, Middle East. And we've enabled that person to really develop and grow into other sectors. And it's really important that you think not just today about who you're hiring, what you're hiring for today, and who you're meeting. But could that person add value elsewhere? If so, make a role for them, bring them in.

Adam: You mentioned your international business and you split your time between the U.S. and the U.K. You lead a company that conducts business in more than 100 countries. What are your best tips for listeners on how to approach international business and how to thrive? 

Simon: When conducting business internationally, you've got to make sure you sleep well on the airplane. A glass of Pinot never hurts, I've got to say, to be serious, I again, it's the same tree. And if you think about the privilege I have of what I do, and I've been all over the world countless times. And I've had the privilege of meeting the Premier of China, the President of India, you name it, all the educational authorities and pretty much every minister of education around the world. And what a privilege it is to represent this company at that level. And it's again, it's about the blend of culture and education. If you think about education, and you notice if you think about education, you cannot divorce the subject of education from culture. Every country is different in how they approach their education system. Every government will tell you they want to invest a minimum 4% of their GDP. And that's great. But what does that mean in China? What does it mean in Mexico? What does it mean in Saudi? How do you think about your education structure? And how do we think about our business in the way we can tailor what we offer? Now almost all of it is digital, so it's a lot easier. But how do we tailor what we offer to recognize and appreciate the culture, as well as the education system? It's that knowledge and understanding about how the world functions from an education perspective. And I work very hard to keep abreast of that. I need to keep on top of the changes that each government is making, what their expectations are, as they think about their math and science schooling across the UAE for example. What are we thinking about higher education in Australia? I need to be aware of everything that is being developed and different styles and the way education is delivered. And the way that McGraw Hill can then fit with that structure. We have to work it that way around. It isn't about us giving what we think will work. It's about truly listening, and understanding and going to classrooms in Rwanda, understanding everything and the way they teach and then thinking, I think we've got something here that can fit with this. Let me see. Let's try it. And it's that willingness to be flexible to understand and appreciate the culture. And then make sure you know enough about what can be possible with our own products and our own people to put two and two together. When you do and you see the success and we see it everywhere in the world, it's incredibly gratifying. And it's probably, I would say, my proudest activity of 36 odd years in this business, is seeing the impact we've had on education systems around the world on how students have learned. It's very, very satisfying.

Adam: As Tip O'Neill said, “All politics is local”. And exactly, it really comes down to understanding your local environment and the global environment. The world of education, the world more broadly, was disrupted dramatically by the pandemic. The world of education was hit extremely hard. Your ecosystem changed overnight and changed in a way that was unlike anything I would imagine you've experienced in your career. What are the best lessons that you learned from leading through this significant disruption? And what advice do you have for listeners on how to lead during times of crisis, uncertainty and change?

Simon: It's around calmness. It's around humility. And it's around being as humane and as open as you've ever been before. And what we did Adam, we, there'll be a ton of people across the company that will recognize this, we began, I began doing videos. I began very quickly, initially doing a video to talk to the company about where we were closing offices, and all of our staff needing to work remotely. We were very concerned, we still are very concerned about our health and welfare. So, everyone was able to be remote. And we have not taken a step backwards, the company has performed wonderfully, our productivity is terrific. So, it was easy for us to do that. From a business point of view, we have had a very successful couple of years. Now, what I did, though, was do a video at least every two weeks, sometimes more frequently, I would do videos for the company. My wife, bless her, would be happy to be the videographer. And I would just talk about what we're doing as a company, what we're thinking about, that then I brought in the dog by accident. There was an accidental video with a dog that jumped up. I was about to stop the video, I thought, no, hell, let's keep going, grab the dog. And ever since that time, this is a sad admission, the dog is far more popular than I am whenever I do a video. So, what I have to do now with the Communications Group is say, Jasper, the dog. He features and I know our hit rate will go up significantly. If I don't include the dog, I have a problem. But what we do and what I did is multiple videos calmly talking to the staff, understanding the situation that we're all in appreciating the monotony of COVID. And that's what it was. Everyone was in the same environment. It was just monotonous. It wasn't unsafe, because we were all coerced into whatever house or whatever situation we were in, but it was monotonous. So, how do you alleviate the boredom? I try to make it fun. There is no shame in having a laugh with your staff. In fact, there are so many benefits about opening up and being and trying to find humor out of something that is not that humorous, it's serious. But there are always aspects of what we do that are so important to relate. And I think, for me in any crisis situation, you need to show calmness, you need to show empathy for your staff, whatever situation it is. And we've been through earthquakes, we've been through tsunamis, now we've been through COVID. And you have to remain consistent, calm in your communication, and empathetic. And how you communicate and how you invite people to express an opinion, it's really important that communication is critical, that you have an approachable style,

Adam: Calmness, empathy, authenticity, being yourself, showing who you are, showing off your sense of humor, being there, being present, being a great communicator. It's so important at all times, important in times good, especially important in times bad. When we started off this conversation, one of the things that you highlighted as you were talking about how you were able to rise within your career was, in your words, the art of communication and clearly in the most trying time in your career, communication is just as essential. What advice do you have for listeners on how to become great communicators?

Simon: I think it begins with a willingness to be open, yourself. They think if you're prepared to answer honestly, and give sufficient information and maybe a little bit of extra information you show yourself as a human, you show yourself and how you think about what's going on. You talk about your own family, your own children, and you are prepared to show a vulnerable side and an emotional side. That's okay because families go through difficult times as well. And I think when you communicate with somebody, and it makes no difference what level they're at in the corporation, or if they are a customer of ours, it makes no difference at all. It's the ability to look at them with sincerity, to listen to them carefully, and respond to what they're saying to you. And to make an effort, to make it natural. And to me, I'm blessed in a way and I'm very fortunate that I can. I find it very easy and fascinating to talk to people. I love the opportunity to work with our staff and talk to our customers. I find people are very interesting, always. There is always something about somebody that I want to know. And then, I want to know more about it. And I want to know why something happened and how they feel about it now. And if you genuinely have that approach to somebody, you will communicate well without even trying, because it's the most natural thing that you can do. Again, it's the curiosity about the individual, and about what makes him tick. If you have that, and you're prepared to also give in return, you'll have wonderful conversations. Be it with an individual or be with 4000 people at one time, you can get through to them, and really make it clear what you want to communicate in the best possible way.

Adam: Such great advice. What can anyone do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Simon: You've got to work hard. But you've got to find what you're doing is really meaningful to you. You've got to love what you do. That won't be every day, but it will be most days. And you've got to love the purpose of why you are doing this, in the end. What is the big picture? And if you appreciate that, and you really are honest with yourself about what you love doing, you will do better at what you do. You don't need a plan for that year, you don't need an AI. I talked to so many people that say in three years, I want this in five years, I want that in 10 years, I'll be doing this. I'm very skeptical about that because you don't really know what you don't know yet. You've got to be flexible and understand how you can contribute to the company that you are in now or the industry that you're in right now. And what you can do is make sure that you are offering something deeply valuable to the company. And if you do that, companies realize that, they recognize it. And that's how you end up getting promoted. I've described myself as the accidental CEO because I never really thought I'd be CEO. I've just kept on going on a wonderful journey and executing very carefully, delivering consistently on everything I promised. And by that I mean, our revenue and our EBITDA targets, and making sure that we are consistent in the way we behave. And I think anybody that operates in that same way with knowledge, experience, execution, skill, and a desire and a determination to do well, they will succeed. Absolutely, then the real crux comes when you find you're in an industry that you love because then you will really do well. And you'll find that you have a career that before you know it will culminate in a big job that actually when you look back, you think I'm not sure how that happened. But I'm so glad it did. And I recognize the reasons that it has happened. It's because I've been true to those principles, and true to the principles of leadership, but also performance and execution. And I've been loyal to myself and to my company, and to making sure that I deliver on everything I promised I knew I could do, I've done.

Adam: Simon, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Simon: It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. 

Adam: Pleasure was mine.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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