Do Something: Interview with Deloitte’s Steven Goldbach and Geoff Tuff
I recently spoke to Deloitte’s Steven Goldbach and Geoff Tuff, authors of the new book Provoke: How Leaders Shape the Future by Overcoming Fatal Human Flaws. Steve is a Principal at Deloitte and serves as the firm’s Chief Strategy Officer. Geoff is a Principal at Deloitte; he holds various leadership roles across the firm’s Sustainability, Innovation and Strategy practices.
Adam: Thanks again for taking the time to share your advice. First things first, though, I am sure readers would love to learn more about you. How did you get here? What experiences, failures, setbacks or challenges have been most instrumental to your growth?
Steve: I was probably the world’s least successful business school applicant. After a few years of working at my first job out of undergrad I wanted to go to business school. Since a few of the founders of the firm were professors at Harvard Business School, it felt like it was a necessary step. Everyone around me at work suggested that I’d be a shoo-in to get into a top business school, and perhaps I started to believe it. I still worked hard on the applications, but the first year I applied, all the schools I applied to rejected me (one painfully – Stanford – after putting me on their waitlist). After moving to New York to work at Forbes, I applied again with the same results. Rejection. Rejection. Rejection. The situation was even more painful because my (then fiancée) wife was finishing her MBA at Harvard while this was going on. Nothing was worse than attending a function with her at the school and everyone asking me – “hey, how’s that application going”? It was very challenging to deal with at the time because all of a sudden, my life’s plan was now not coming to fruition and I had to adapt. So I learned resiliency and the important lesson that even if you work hard, not every plan works out, but it’s a guarantee that it won’t work out if you don’t put in the work. Eventually, I did go – and had a wonderful experience. However, the life lesson and resultant humility it created was worth more than any degree.
Geoff: Wow – coming out of the gate with a deep, multifaceted question! I’ll spare you the details on my origin story as we actually write a bit about that in Provoke. In terms of challenges: there have been lots of all those things, all throughout my career. But beyond the monumental ones, probably the challenges I have internalized most deeply are the ‘thousand cuts’ when I have tried to make what I think is a totally logical point and I am met by blank stares – by teams, clients, even family. It’s taught me that logic, data, and a worldview don’t carry the day. In our line of work, but also as passionate humans, our objective tends to be to move people. That only happens with actual, emotional and rational connection with people as people – better understanding where they come from and why they think differently. Though it took me a long time to learn the importance of this firsthand, it’s been pretty fun along the way to see how differently lots of others see the world when they come from a different place.
Adam: What do you hope readers take away from your new book?
Geoff: The key thing we’d like to “provoke” (pardon the pun) in the world is to change how people respond to uncertainties that surround them. Most leaders today, when faced with uncertainty, choose to study it. And study it. And study it. Until it resolves itself and becomes certain. Unfortunately, by then, it’s too late to change the outcome in your favor, or at least get ahead of the competition. Rather than studying it, we would like readers to choose to take some action – as action has the benefit of creating real-world learning. So if done in the proper way, action will yield better insight into how the uncertainty is resolving – and therefore how best to navigate it. It’s a way better move than analyzing the “data” which is, by definition, retrospective in nature.
Adam: What are key flaws leaders should be aware of and how can they overcome them?
Steve: The ‘fatal flaws’ that we refer to in the title are not necessarily flaws of leadership; they are basic human cognitive biases that come with being, well, human. These cognitive biases make it hard for leaders and teams to see when uncertainties that are a question of “if” they will come to fruition move to be a question of “when.” This is critical because as the uncertainty starts to resolve, the degrees of freedom that an organization has to address it narrow. Some of the cognitive biases include the ‘status quo’ bias – which is a preference for things as they are (changes are perceived as ‘losses’); the availability bias, which is a bias to information that is easily accessible (e.g., when a family member dislikes a product, you are less likely to believe overwhelmingly positive market research data), amongst other similar biases.
The thing is – when you couple these human biases with tendencies that large organizations have in how they interact (for example, the desire to take tricky issues “offline” to avoid embarrassment in meetings), you narrow the peripheral vision of the organization, making it harder and harder to see when uncertainties shift.
Geoff: Besides continually taking action in the real world to get a firsthand understanding of the contours of uncertainty, one great way for leaders to overcome these biases is to promote cognitive diversity – often through actual, human diversity – on their teams and make sure that the environment in which they operate is inclusive so that all perspectives can be fully heard. Cognitively diverse teams can “see” more of a problem because of the breadth of perspective. However, you don’t get the benefits of diversity if some voices don’t feel sufficiently safe to share their perspective fully, or if some voices are discounted. So diversity on its own isn’t enough – it needs to be inclusive too. But this is one really important thing that leaders can do in order to overcome these flaws.
Adam: What do you believe are the defining qualities of an effective leader?
Geoff: We tend to reject a single model of effective leadership and note that effective leaders can come in all shapes and sizes. Perhaps more important than the specific qualities of the leader are the qualities of their teams. Ideally on teams you have people who can play different roles – promoting ideas, pressure-testing these ideas / playing devil’s advocate, making sure the group operates well, and ultimately getting stuff done. A good leader recognizes what skills they bring to the party and surrounds themselves with people who complement them.
Steve: On a personal note, we are both “pioneers” – people who love promoting ideas. Therefore, on our teams in our day-to-day life, including how we have managed the creation of Provoke, we have surrounded ourselves with people with other skills, including those who are great at getting stuff done!
One thing we do wish was not a characteristic of leaders is so called “decisiveness”. In other words, leaders make up their mind and then are done. While we don’t think it’s a good for leaders to avoid difficult choices, we think it’s perfectly fine for leaders to change their perspective based on new information, especially when they share the logic for their change with the organization. Political leaders have been derided for “flip-flopping”, but we think having the courage to change one’s position in the face of changing circumstances is actually a hallmark of good leadership. Just make sure to explain the logic clearly.
Adam: How can leaders and aspiring leaders take their leadership skills to the next level?
Geoff: There is no substitute for “doing stuff”. We believe that human behavior is the sub-atomic element of leadership. In order for a team to succeed, leaders need to frequently experiment with changing human behavior. Maybe it’s the behavior of their customers, or the members of their teams. The best way for leaders to learn is to develop a hypothesis about what behavior change would most advantage their business, develop an idea for how to change it, and then test it. Then scale if successful and then repeat more tests as you learn more.
Adam: What are your three best tips applicable to entrepreneurs, executives and civic leaders?
Steve: I’ll name a few and Geoff, you add. One. Don’t lose sight of the fact that all of these jobs are about changing human behavior for good. So start by understanding what that behavior needs to be and why you’re trying to change it. But make sure you’re doing it for good: there are lots of behavioral changes that might help you but don’t help your organization’s mission, let alone making the world a (slightly) better place. You’re never going to act with purity of purpose in all you do … but try to at least check a couple boxes in the force-for-good column if you can.
Two. Have a testable hypothesis and make it clear. That will force you to be honest. If you’re not organized about this then you’ll never be able to formally learn. Most of the time, it should be the very smallest testable hypothesis you can form to enable what we call a ‘minimally viable move.’ But be ready to be bold on occasion as well.
Geoff: Three. Stop believing you can predict the future sufficiently to move with confidence. Imagine multiple, plausible versions of the future simultaneously, always … and always be ready to change course. Humility and curiosity beat experience and conviction 7 days a week these days.
Adam: What is your best advice on building, leading and managing teams?
Geoff. Our most important bit of advice is derivative of what we discussed earlier. In building your team, make sure it is cognitively diverse…and remember cognitive diversity stems from real-world diversity. Make that team feel psychologically safe so that they can share their honest perspective. This practice will directly counteract some of the human biases that narrow organizational peripheral vision.
Additionally, you should have a constant set of hypotheses about the world that are under real world tests. The only way to become an adaptable organization is to continually look to delight the people you serve – customers, partners, employees, etc.- and experiment with how to do that more effectively.
Adam: How can leaders develop a winning strategy?
Steve: This question is challenging to answer in such a short interview. Readers should definitely check out Playing to Win by our friend, mentor and former colleague Roger Martin and former P&G CEO AG Lafley. But if we had to summarize a few important principles that make it more likely that you’ll get to a winning strategy, here they are: 1) Start with a clear human need. The world is littered with unsuccessful business moves that had supposedly “cool tech” (for example) but didn’t meet an important underlying need. 2) Use the opposite test. If the opposite of your strategy is clearly dumb (e.g., we hear many companies say they will win by being customer centric – the opposite of which is ignoring customers), then it isn’t specific enough. You know you are specific enough when the opposite of your strategy could be a viable strategy by a competitor. 3) Generate multiple strategy possibilities to debate amongst the team. Don’t just start with the safest idea and perfect it. You’ll get to a better answer by rejecting multiple alternatives.
Adam: What is the single best piece of advice you have ever received?
Geoff: If everyone nods and smiles when you talk and you generally know that people “like you,” you’re milquetoast. Be interesting, be provocative, but always hold yourself – and your point of view – lightly.
Steve: From Jim Berrien at Forbes – always make an error of commission rather than an error of omission.
Adam: Is there anything else you would like to share?
Geoff: Well, as you might expect, our main call to everyone is do something. Action wins over analysis these days!
Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.
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