I recently interviewed Ambassador Susan D. Page on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today was the first U.S. Ambassador to South Sudan. Ambassador Susan Page spent close to 30 years in the Foreign Service, serving in leadership roles around the world. Ambassador Paige, thank you for joining us.

Ambassador Page: Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure. 

Adam: Pleasure is mine. You grew up in Chicago and went to law school before pursuing a career in diplomacy. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What were the key experiences that drove your interest in the Foreign Service and helped shape the trajectory of your success?

Ambassador Page: Yeah, sure. So, I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago and my parents moved to Chicago from the South to go to graduate school. And so, growing up, my brother and I were the only Black kids in our elementary school. My brother finished sixth grade before there was another Black kid in our elementary school. So, I think, it was, maybe I was in fourth or fifth grade, so I'm two years younger, two and half years younger than my brother. So, my parents did what they could to also make sure that we were introduced to other Black children and whatnot. But it was, I would say, quite formative for me that my mother had her master's degree in social work and sociology and loves to cook even today. She's in her late 80s and loves to cook and loves all kinds of other foods. And so, part of her work, my parents were always hosting exchange students. Sometimes just for short periods of time, a week, a couple of weeks, as they were maybe waiting for their placement with an agency or graduate school placement. And so, I had an appreciation, I think, early on, for foreign cultures, foreign foods, and an interest in languages. And so, I think, that was really kind of a foundation for me was learning about other peoples and other cultures. And that really, kind of, spurred me on to explore. And I loved to travel, love to get out. And, I think, for me, probably the biggest impact was a trip that I went on when I was a freshman in high school. So, it was the first foreign trip without my parents. And obviously, I was quite privileged that my parents liked to travel and had the means to do so and took us on trips while we were kids. But I always felt kind of out of place. Like I've always felt like I didn't quite belong. And when I went on this European trip with our orchestra, as a 14-year-old freshman in high school, it was the first time that I felt like I belonged because it was clear that I was an outsider. And that was okay because I was. It was known that I was a foreigner. I'm not from here. I felt this, I felt like a foreigner in my own country. I felt somehow as if I was made to feel like I didn't belong. And so, I couldn't really figure that out at the time. I mean, it was much later that I realized I just felt much more comfortable being in foreign environments because, I think, it was very clear what I was.

Adam: So many people listening to this conversation who are coming to this podcast with a background very different from yours, but might be thinking, I've had a journey where I've had to try to figure out how to become comfortable in my surroundings. How to become comfortable in my own skin. And to that end, what advice would you share to anyone on how to become comfortable in your own skin, how to become comfortable in whatever surroundings you're in, regardless of who you are as a person?

Ambassador Page: What I think is to just simply try to be true to yourself. And at least for me, I try to do everything with integrity. I try to not betray my own values. And that's very important to me. So, I think, it is a matter of becoming comfortable with your own truth. And helping people to understand it might be useful to someone to become comfortable in their own skin. But it might not be. I think that was one of the things that, for me, being overseas without the same structures that exist in my own country in the United States. Were there certain subjects that we don't really talk about? Or we assume because we haven't had that same experience, or we don't know. But other societies don't necessarily have the same focus or the same underpinnings. And so, I can more freely ask questions. And that felt free that in a lot of countries, people would ask me, “Well, what's your message? Where are your parents from?”. And sometimes, they meant, they thought that I was from somewhere other than the United States, which is fine. Sometimes they were asking about a mixed parentage of one of your parents. If they’re Asian or Latino or Latina, etc. And we don't usually ask those sorts of questions in the United States. If you've got some Black blood in you, you're Black, and have a discussion. So, you have to become comfortable with whoever you are. My advice is just be true to your own values, and that a lot of people walked in this path before us and helped us to get where we are, even if it's maybe not as far as we would like to be.

Adam: What were the keys to rising within your career? And what are your best tips for anyone listening on how to rise within their career?

Ambassador Page: I took a rather unconventional path, in some ways, because I chose a career of public service over maybe the typical path out of a law school or graduate school program of working for a big law firm or a corporate counsel, things like that. I knew that I wanted to live abroad. But that was again because that's where I felt comfortable. And so, I sought out opportunities to work overseas. And I didn't initially join the Foreign Service. I joined the State Department in the Office of the Legal Adviser after I had completed a fellowship in Nepal for the year after I finished law school, and then applied to the Office of the Legal Adviser at the State Department, which is actually civil service. And that was my dream job. And, I guess, the best piece of advice is - follow your dreams but take care of your business. So, when people ask me, I would like to work in public service, I would like to be a public defender or work in an NGO in public policy, but I have student loans that I have to pay off. I say you will have a long career, most likely, you will have probably 50 years to work. And your career is not going to be linear. So, don't let anyone make you feel bad about your choices that work for you. So, if you don't get that first job that you really are so eager to do, either because you don't have the experience yet or you can't afford to take a job that doesn't pay you very well. That's okay. Go work in whatever the entity is that pays you what you need to do to take care of the business that you need to take care of. Nobody else knows what your situation might be. You might have parents that you're taking care of. You might have children that you need to take care of. You may have none of that. You just simply may need and want to pay down your debt. But then, be as good as you can at that job that is maybe not your choice, your ideal position. Learn as much as you can, do not burn any bridges, and seek people out whose career is the kind of career that you want to have. Seek out role models. Not necessarily mentors because they may not be your mentor, but having your aspiration of this is what I would like to do and then break it into smaller parts. Okay, what are the steps that would lead me to doing that? So that's, at least for me, that's how it worked. But again, without compromising my own integrity and my own values. And sometimes that means swallowing your pride. We come out of school, we think we know everything, just like our younger people, our kids do, because that's how we were too. So, recognizing that you don't usually get your dream right away and that you have to work for it. So, just steadily work for it. And again, seek out people whose positions you appreciate or organizations that you value, and look at the people within those organizations.

Adam: That is such great advice all the way around. Your career is not going to be linear. There is no linear path to success. Really a key theme of this podcast. I've interviewed so many of the most successful leaders in the country across all kinds of fields. And one after one after one will tell you, they did not make it to the top in a linear way. Lots of ups, lots of downs, lots of twists, lots of turns, lots of pivots. So, to your point, to be successful, you have to be willing and open to taking chances to try something and then trying something new.  Taking a job, it might not be your dream job, it might not be what you want to do for the next 30 years. But if you do it for two years, or for three years, if you can pivot, if you're flexible, if you're adaptable, that's how you're going to be successful. And being good at what you do. Having the mindset that no matter what I'm going to do, I'm going to excel at it. I'm going to be the best I could possibly be. Having a growth mindset and the desire to continually learn to continually grow. The best leaders are lifelong learners. I love your emphasis on relationship building and finding people around you who can be role models. They don't necessarily need to be mentors, which is a great point. But they can be many mentors. They can be people who you could meet once, you could meet twice, maybe don't even meet at all, but through osmosis, you're learning from them. And the last point you made which I thought was so valuable for anyone listening, you might have things that you can compromise. You can compromise what your first job is going to be. You can compromise what your second job is going to be. But what are the non-negotiables you can't compromise? Your integrity. You can't compromise your values. Because once you start compromising those things, then you're not going to be successful. When you need them, you're not going to be successful. When the rubber meets the road.

Ambassador Page: It's really critical to build trust because, especially as a diplomat, if you lose that trust it's really hard to get it back again, nearly impossible. And one of the things is that because my mother was a social worker. And so, growing up with the social worker mother who started her career working for an agency in Chicago. So, a lot of times her clients, her social work clients would be older people. And sometimes if they didn't show up for an appointment, she would learn that the person had died. And so, she actually started reading the obituaries. And it became, I know this sounds really morbid but, it was the first thing that she read in the newspaper. I know most people don't read a physical newspaper these days. But when I do, it is still almost always the first section that I read. And it's not because I am looking for someone who died. But I actually like to read the write-ups, even if it's a small blurb. It's not the biggest write-up on someone who was reasonably well-known. It's just the death announcement of Mary Jane Smith, Bob Jones, whoever. I like reading what they've done and what was highlighted. It gives me all kinds of great ideas. That's interesting, I never thought of that. Or wow, that person turned their love of flowers into a job and then a career or something really unique. They founded an organization, they did x, y, and z. And I would write those things down. And I would write the names of organizations that I learned about that way. And I also just keep a running list of organizations, entities that I liked. I look at job descriptions. Those are ways that I try to stay active and involved and engaged with that next learning adventure. And maybe the last point I would say, is to remember that even if you have everything planned out, that you might need someone that takes you in a totally different direction. That could be a partner, a love interest, it could be someone who is doing something and you start doing what they are doing or learning what they are working on. And your career takes off in a direction you could never even think about. So again, being open to the pivots and even the best plans, I mean, my dream job, I thought, was working in the El Nino office of a prestigious legal adviser, International Public International Law. I thought it was exactly what I wanted to do. And after two and a half years, I realized what I needed to live overseas. And so, I found that I could do that with U.S.A ID. They had a general counsel's office that was both foreign service and civil service. And that's how I was able to make that pivot, both into the Foreign Service still doing law that I was not willing to leave in case I needed to go back to it and a company overseas. So, it wasn’t what I had envisioned. But it helped me to accomplish my goals.

Adam: Really it's all about being adaptable and being flexible. It's essential to success, essential to being a great leader. I want to go back to a point that you made, which is essential to negotiations and deal-making, and that's building trust. And I want to know if you could expand upon your advice for the listeners on the topics of negotiations and deal-making? What are your best tips on those topics?

Ambassador Page: One thing that, I think, is applicable to any situation really, is to understand the context. And to not simply take whatever it is that is your own way of thinking. Whether it's your environment, perspective, based on the country you grew up in, or the religion you grew up in, or the non-religion, but to understand the context of the circumstances that you find yourself in. So, it may not be an international conflict, it may be a dispute that is in business or whatever. It's really important to understand where the other person is coming from. And so, understanding the context. Understanding you may not agree with it, but at least understanding why they might believe what they believe. That it doesn't have to make sense to me, just as we have learned that feelings are neither good nor bad. They just are. It's just how you deal. So, remember what your role is. It's not necessarily to convince someone to believe something else. So, if I'm afraid of dogs because I was bitten, no matter how many times someone tells me you don't need to be afraid of this dog, that's not necessarily going to be what will convince me to not be afraid, because I've had this experience. So trying, at least, to put oneself in the shoes of the other, to the extent possible, by understanding the context, and trying to learn a little bit about why they believe what they believe. Why they feel the way they feel. And if I had to give up all that they have done, maybe I would behave in the same way or want the same things. And what I have learned is that most people want respect. They want to be treated with dignity and with respect, no matter what position they're in. And I try to remind myself that I have been unbelievably blessed, richly blessed, privileged, whatever word makes sense. And that, literally, but for something else, I could be here. I could be there. But I'm not. And so, I don't get to think any less of anyone else. Because I have not walked in their shoes. I don't know what they have been through. So, respect, humanity, dignity, and listening. I mean, nobody ever says stop listening, you're listening too much. They tell you to stop talking, you're talking too much. No one says you're listening too much.

Adam: I love that. To highlight a few points that you made for listeners that are essential. Do whatever you can to see things from the other side's perspective. Treat every party with respect. And listen. Great leaders are great listeners. And you lead in unbelievably extenuating circumstances. You're the first U.S. Ambassador to South Sudan. And you actually received an award from the State Department for leading the U.S. mission to South Sudan under “extremely challenging circumstances”. Those are the State Department's words. And you had to evacuate more than 1900 civilians as the country was on the verge of massive conflict. What are your guiding principles and best tips on crisis management and how to lead during times of uncertainty and crisis?

Ambassador Page: So again, I think, it goes back to trust. And, I think, the most effective leaders are the ones who build trust. And trust doesn't come by on its own, you have to work at it. And that means also needing to acknowledge mistakes and being willing to learn from them. I think it's really important to accept responsibility, but also to give credit where credit is due. And, I think, as leaders we too often want to take all of the credit as if I did all this by myself. No, no, no, no. I didn't. I had a team of people who helped me to do what I was doing. They might not have been the ones that proceed. But it's really important that I let them know just how much I appreciate what they were doing because they collectively were making me, the State Department, embassy, whatever, our country, proud. So, I think, it's even when you fail, even when you make a mistake, it's admitting it and having the courage to do so. And learning from it. Demonstrating resilience that no matter what I can keep going. And those are the people that are the leaders that other people want to follow because you do recognize them and you do what you write. So, a lot of times as we have heard, a number of leaders say do it first and ask for permission later. And so, I did what I thought was right. I made calls and so did my team. I had other embassies in the region. I had the military base in Djibouti. So, it was very much a collective effort. Even if I was the face during the evacuations on all of those flights, I would try. I didn't always manage to make it to each and every flight, but I would try to go to the airport, get on the plane and say a message to all of the people because they weren't all American citizens that had hoped that the conflict would end soon. And that people would be able to come back and continue the work to build South Sudan with the South Sudanese people. To give a message of hope and courage and whatnot. Those were some of the things that I found is constantly repeating the message. We often think that people understand the message and understand what it is that our goals are. I learned that people have to be reminded over and over and over again. And that was a mistake that I had to recognize early on, who I thought everybody was on board. Not that they were doing something wrong, but they didn't necessarily always remember what our central objectives were. And so, repeating what we're here for and understanding what we're here for, and that it's important to listen to what people themselves have to say about what they want. And helping to keep people safe and get them out of harm's way, when that's the case. 

Adam: I want to highlight a couple of really important points that you made. Number one is the importance of communication. It's essential in leading in all circumstances, but especially critical when leading in times of crisis, uncertainty and change. The second thing I wanted to highlight is the importance of decision-making. Not every decision you're going to make is going to be the right decision. But as a leader, you have to be the one making decisions. Your job is to make the call. The buck stops at the top, the buck stops with you. And to your point, it's better to ask for forgiveness than for permission. So, lead boldly and make a call. What can anyone do to become a better leader?

Ambassador Page: There are all sorts of awkward ideas now on leadership and skills building. But, I think you've highlighted them. It's communication, listening, building trust, knowing people's strengths, complementing, recognizing that almost everything is a team endeavor. Even if ultimately, yes, you might be the leader who has to make the decision. But understanding your organizational environment. You may think that you're making the decision, but there are still people higher up than you who may override you. And you have to also be okay with that, with taking decisions from others who maybe don't actually know as much as you do, or as much as they think that they do, or as much as I think that I'd know. But again, if you can step up, no matter how painful, and acknowledge mistakes. Acknowledging, I think, most importantly, everyone else does contributions as well. Treating people with respect and dignity, no matter if we might think that this is silly, or this is not a very smart way of looking at things, but separate that out from the person's humanity. Their beliefs may be something different. Their views may be something different. But their value as a human being is always the most important.

Adam: What can anyone do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Ambassador Page: I think it is constantly learning. I think now, with so many tools that are available, you can go online, you can have a coach and some of this is free. It doesn't have to be something that you pay for. It's reading, it's learning about other people's experiences, and adapting them to your own, if that makes sense. And, I think, the way that you carry yourself and the way that you treat other people will have people driven towards you. And that is, I think, the demonstration of a successful, maybe not leader per se, but someone who is the kind of person that you yourself want to be.

Adam: Ambassador Page, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Ambassador Page: Thank you so much for having me on the show. My pleasure.

Adam: Pleasure was mine.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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