I recently interviewed Suzanne McCormick on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is the leader of one of America's oldest, largest, and most prominent nonprofit organizations. Suzanne McCormick is the CEO of the YMCA of the USA, with more than 2500 locations, serving 13 million people across the country. Suzanne, thank you for joining us.

Suzanne: Thank you. It is such a pleasure to be here, Adam.

Adam: The pleasure is mine. You studied political science at Duke. And right after graduating college, you joined the Peace Corps and worked as an English teacher in Thailand. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What experiences and lessons were most instrumental to shaping your worldview and shaping the trajectory of your success?

Suzanne: For me, my political science degree was much more of what I would describe as a degree in social justice. And the emphasis of my studies when I was at Duke was on South African politics. And this is in the days before apartheid was ended. And I got really super engaged and interested in the politics there and the injustices that were happening. And that just fed me this desire to be part of the change. And so I had some amazing professors who inspired me, inspired me to get involved outside of academics. One of my professors was a huge proponent of community service. I had grown up in community service with my family, but he had a big influence on me. And I think was one of the reasons that I really looked at the Peace Corps as a viable option. I was graduating at the end of the late ‘80s when it felt like most people were going to Wall Street or law school. And so thinking about going into the Peace Corps from Duke and not going to make a ton of money in the early ‘90s, I was a bit of an anomaly. And yet I had had such great influence through my studies to think about doing something bigger than myself, which I would attribute to one of the reasons that I joined the Peace Corps. And that in and of itself was one of the most educational experiences of my lifetime, to go live in another culture, to feel what it's like to be a foreigner, and to have to learn a new language was a very humbling experience. And it also was the experience that solidified for me that I wanted a career in service when I came back to the United States.

Adam: What advice do you have for people listening who are trying to figure out where to go in their careers? Should I pursue something that is going to make me a lot of money? Should I pursue something that I'm really passionate about? For those listening who might already have figured that out but are mentoring others trying to get to that place, what advice do you have?

Suzanne: I'm a big proponent, and I have been my whole life, that the greatest opportunities come when you challenge yourself to live outside of what I describe as the traditional life. With resume expectations that sometimes come from parent, sometimes come from partners, sometimes coming from children, sometimes come from colleagues or bosses, and really encouraging people to think about what is it they care most deeply about, and not be afraid to try something. Not necessarily having to abandon everything that they have been doing. And so adding on new experiences. Or I am a big proponent, and I think it's easier to do when you're younger, is to take time to step away and try something new. And I think in this day and age, there are many more opportunities, especially for those who are advanced in their career, to look at sabbatical opportunities or longer-term service opportunities. And for those who are mentoring and more mature mentors who might be listening to that. I love to encourage those that I mentor, especially when they're younger when they don't have all the trappings of life to hold on to, to not be afraid to let go and walk away and try something new. It does take courage. Everything seems so scary when you haven't done it. But then once you get into it, you realize time passes pretty quickly. I can go back to what I was doing and what I will learn from those other experiences, it can be life-changing.

Adam: What are the keys to rising within your career? And what can anyone do to rise within their career.

Suzanne: I consider myself a bit of an old-school riser. In my career, I was raised under the philosophy, and I probably got this from my father, that you start where you start. And it's your job to work your way up, and you have to prove yourself. And that comes from a willingness to always take on new responsibilities, additional responsibilities, and to volunteer outside of your defined scope of work in an organization so that you can demonstrate that you bring value to an organization beyond your position description. And that always worked really well. For me, I was always the first one to volunteer in my first and second jobs, if there was, for example, an internal employee Task Force, or a special initiative and our CEO, and our senior leaders, were looking for staff members to volunteer, I always did because it was an opportunity for me to demonstrate first of all, grow skills, but also demonstrate that I could lead outside of my position description. And so I always tried to say yes and take on more. And the other thing that really worked for me in my career, and a part of it is how I'm naturally wired. As soon as I learned something, and I get close to mastering it or feel like I can do it, I look for the next challenge. And so I could never stay in the same position for more than I think the maximum I ever stayed in the same position was five years. And that was a long time, I was constantly looking for what were other opportunities, not always advancing upward, but also always looking, were there opportunities laterally, that would give me a more diverse skill set. And I was thinking about that specifically in nonprofit leadership. Because once I came back from the Peace Corps and started working, I knew that was the field that I wanted to be in. So I've always had the mindset. Work your way up, prove yourself, and look for opportunities, not just above, but also across to demonstrate that you can add value. I had great mentors, also who took a shine to me and were willing to support me and encouraged me to step out and try new things. Mentorship in my life was a huge piece of who I am. I had a group of people who were my fan club. And when I was discouraged, they cheered me on. To put it simply, I would also attribute mentorship as a huge part of what I consider a pretty successful career in nonprofit leadership.

Adam: So much great stuff there. And I want to unpack some of it for listeners. The first one to volunteer, say yes. Don't be afraid to say yes. Always look for that next challenge. And that next challenge doesn't necessarily need to be an upward step. It doesn't necessarily need to be a more prestigious title. It doesn't necessarily need to be a higher-paying job. It doesn't necessarily need to be something bigger and better. But it could be something different.

Suzanne: You could learn a new skill and you can meet a group of people that you would not have met which can result in connections. You can deeper your understanding and your education. There are just so many things that you can get from that, that make you a richer human being, for lack of a better way to say it.

Adam: Yeah, I could not agree with you more. You spoke about the power of mentorship in succeeding in life. What were the most important skills you developed that helped you become the CEO of one of America's most prominent most successful leading nonprofit organizations? And now that you're the CEO of the YMCA, what are the skills that are most important to your success today?

Suzanne: I have a couple one is I work really hard to be an incredibly good listener. And I've listened for understanding and appreciation and empathy. I try to show up in conversations and new territory. And a lot of the YMCA was new territory. For me, this is my first job with the YMCA. I did not work for YMCA at any other point in my career. And so I had a lot of learning to do. But showing up with humility was really important and has served me well. So listening, humility, and then what has always been the most important thing I've done in any CEO role I've had is to hire people around me on my team that are smarter than I am. And just to recognize that I know what I'm good at. And there's so much that I'm not good at and I need people around me who are good at it. And so I would say it's those three things.

Adam: I love it. Surround yourself with great people. If you're the smartest person in the room you’re in the wrong room. The power of humility. And great leaders are great listeners. Listeners of my podcast have heard me say that ad nauseam. And just yesterday I was on a call and someone asked me how can anyone become a better listener? What can you do? And I'm going to turn that question over to you Suzanne, what can anyone listening to this podcast do to become a more effective listener?

Suzanne: I think one of the most important things going into any kind of conversation is you have got to consciously set aside any bias that you potentially come into the conversation with any preconceived notions about the person that you're going to be engaging with, or the conversation that you're going to be having. And I describe it this way is, you go into the conversation with a willingness to be convinced, because often we go into conversations, and we already think we've got an opinion. And it's a hard thing to do. But that's what I work really hard when I go into conversations to set aside what I think I already know and open myself up to being convinced of something that may feel different than what I came into the conversation with. You really have to listen for understanding. It's not just nodding your head. You really have to listen and try to deepen your appreciation of the other person's point of view.

Adam: Having an open mind, having an open heart, and being genuinely interested. You can't fake being interested, you can't fake curiosity. Curiosity is essential to great leadership. You just can't fake it.

Suzanne: I agree. And I also think it's, again, humility works really well, too, because some people go into conversations and I think sometimes they feel threatened. And therefore they don't listen as well as they could. So it is setting aside all that. And really going in, as you said, with an open mind. 

Adam: Totally. Every person is an opportunity to learn, an opportunity to grow, and an opportunity to improve yourself. It doesn't matter who that person is. It could be someone like you, one of the most successful leaders in America, or it can be anyone else. Every single person affords you the opportunity to better yourself. And it starts with humility. And it continues with active listening.

Suzanne: And what I have found over my career, and especially in my new role, is nothing makes someone feel more valued than feeling as if they have been heard and that they have been listened to. Even if at the end of the conversation, you have to acknowledge that there's disagreement, or you're going to go a different direction. Simply giving someone the genuine, authentic opportunity to be heard, makes them feel valued. And that goes a long way.

Adam: Well, Suzanne, so far, not only do I hear you, but I haven't disagreed with anything you said. So I'm not sure if we're gonna find any disagreement here. I don't think we are on the path we've been going down so far. You mentioned a couple of things that I've been agreeing with as they pertained to leadership. And I want to dig deeper into that topic. What do you believe are the key characteristics of a great leader? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Suzanne: A great leader has to have humility to be a great listener, has to be a strong communicator, and has to be comfortable in uncomfortable situations. A great leader has to be willing to make decisions that may feel unpopular for a period of time. I've been thinking about this just because I'm doing some work right now with my own executive leadership team, and really helping each of us as individuals and as a team think about how we get stronger. And that comes through understanding our expectations. But I think the other attribute I think of a great leader, for me personally, and this is where some leaders, especially more traditional leaders would definitely not agree with me, is a genuine willingness to admit your mistakes and to talk about them and to share them and to share what you learned from them. I don't have a lot of tolerance for leaders who think they're above everyone else and think that they walk on water. I mean, every leader is a person at the core, and we are all people. And so again, to me, anchors back to humility is probably one of the most important traits of a great leader. If people agree with that or not, if they decide, yes, I believe that but maybe I'm not that. I think the first step for building any leadership skills is to get really clear with yourself in understanding what are your strengths and what are your weaknesses, what are your areas of development, and then investing in those areas, but knowing what you're good at and what you're not. That is, for me, the simple first step, and being honest with yourself is the simple baseline step for getting better in leadership.

Adam: Suzanne, I tell audiences that I speak to that most people in life are bad at most things. We're all good at a few things. And we all have one thing about us, that makes us special, that makes us unique, that makes us different. It's our superpower. And the more quickly you can figure out what it is about you that makes you special, what it is about you that makes you unique, and what it is about you that makes you different, the more successful you'll be in life, the more successful you'll be in business, the more successful you'll be as a leader. Before you can effectively lead others you need to be able to lead your own life. Before others are going to follow you you need to become a person worth following. And it all starts with self-awareness. To your point, there is nothing more important than this journey, this journey of self-discovery. It's never too early and it's never too late to get started on anything, no matter what it is you're interested in pursuing, particularly this journey, this journey of self-discovery. There's nothing more important than this.

Suzanne: Well, I give that same advice to my two young adult children in terms of relationships. I have always said to them, you have to do your own work before you're going to be successful in a relationship. You can never think somebody else is going to make it better for you, you got to do your own hard work and love yourself first before anybody else is gonna love you. So that's all just affirming that self-awareness is the critical step in growing as a person.

Adam: That's great advice. And I think listeners of this podcast are interested in my thoughts and your thoughts on leadership. I don't know that anyone's interested in my thoughts on relationships. But sounds like you have a lot of value to add there.

Suzanne: Yeah, it could be a pop psychologist on romance. And no, not really. I just have, you know, a 22-year-old and a 20-year-old, and helping them navigate the world of relationships. And I've just harkened back to my own experience. I'm lucky. I've been married for 28 years and the ups and downs of that. But that's a different podcast, Adam?

Adam: Well, let's open up the topic. Relationships are critical to succeeding in business and to succeed in life. What are the keys to building winning relationships? 

Suzanne: Some of the attributes that we've talked about are generally related to leadership authenticity. Again, humility is always an ingredient for me, and in any relationship never think I'm better than someone else, or that I know more than somebody else. A willingness to get to know them, a willingness to get to know their strengths and their areas for development, and a willingness to be honest with each other. I think our greatest, I always say 80% of all problems could be solved through communication, better communication, and the other 20% can be solved through better communication. Like it, it's rarely is there an issue or problem where communication and transparency, and honest feedback, when those things are absent are not as prevalent as they need to be. That's where I see the greatest breakdown in relationships, which then turn into breakdowns in performance in an organization.

Adam: I love that. And that advice can be extended more broadly and can be extended right back to what it takes to be a great leader. You're never going to get in trouble as a leader by being communicative. You are going to get in trouble by not being communicative, you are going to get in trouble by not showing up, by not stepping up to the plate. If there's a problem, if times are tough, show up, be there be present, and communicate. Don't be afraid. I agree with that and you are leading an organization, which has been through just about every cycle imaginable. The first YMCA in the United States was founded in 1851. Before either, you or I were around, and more than 170 years later, you're leading the YMCA and the pace of change has arguably never been faster than it is today. How do you keep your organization relevant with the winds of change? And what are your best tips for all leaders on how to lead in times of uncertainty and change?

Suzanne: One of the most incredible things about the YMCA that I have come to appreciate more and more as I've been part of the organization is its incredible history of adaptability. The Y, as you said, was started in 1851, the first one was started in the United States in Boston. And over time, the Y has adapted to meet the evolving needs of society. It started with a focus on serving young men, and young working men, and over time is now one of the foremost organizations focused on the needs not just of young men or men, but of children and families and all generations. And that has been because we were founded to meet a critical need in society at a point in time. And that's always been our mission: how do we bring our principles of honesty and carry respect and responsibility to strengthen communities and strengthen communities in the face of whatever challenges are in front of them then? So it was young men, it was housing, and it's now grown into how we serve the holistic family and kids and multi-generations. And so while we definitely have our challenges, like all organizations right now, continuing to get back to a more stable, operating model, post-pandemic are sort of still in the pandemic, our DNA has always been about evolution and adaptability. So I think our wives across the country are constantly thinking about, what else I need to be doing in my community to demonstrate my relevancy. And the pandemic actually was a time that really gave wise the opportunity to test new things to show up in new ways. And again, while it's been in our DNA, I think there's no other organization, a nonprofit organization that's better poised than we are to continue to adapt in this volatile world. Again, we have lots of challenges. But we have a history of continuing to innovate and do new things. So I'm really hopeful about that. In terms of leading right now, for me, as a leader, I think a couple of things that I've really had to think about growing my skills, is, in days gone by, it was easier for leaders to have a longer time horizon in thinking about the growth of their organization, and the changes that were ahead. Now that timeframe is much shorter. And a good example. I mean, we used to do like 10-year strategic plans. And then we did five-year strategic plans. In my conversations with leaders, now we're looking at, at most a three-year strategic plan or a two-year strategic plan, because we know that we've got to be in a position that we're going to be able to adapt. That's one thing that's really hit home for me more than ever, post-pandemic, the other is just the future of work. And how people want to be engaged in our organizations, and where they're going to be engaged in our work is still a universe that we are just entering into, and that we all have to learn from. And the last thing I would say for me is the virtual world is continuing to learn how to be a better leader virtually, is definitely I would say, one of the areas that I am more focused on than ever, just because I've never had to lead in a virtual world in a way that I have to now,

Adam: Do you have any tips on how to lead in a virtual world?

Suzanne: I feel like I'm still learning, what I tell myself is anchored back to the values of leadership that served me well in the in-person world. And that is all around communication, and how you're engaging in relationships with people. So for me, and this is as a new leader, I've had to dedicate more time to intentionally interact with my team across my organization on a one-on-one basis. So I set up every week, I have three or four 20 minutes by just calm speed dating slots, where anybody in my organization can sign up to spend 20 minutes with me. We get to know each other, we talk about whatever's on their mind. And I have to be really intentional about that because I'm not meeting them in the quarters of my office as often anymore. So that's just one example of how I'm trying to take the principle of good communication and leadership into the virtual world.

Adam: It really comes back to the power of communication and being accessible showing up being there.

Suzanne: Yeah, accessibility is another leadership trait that I would say is absolutely underrated. When I meet young, YMCA staff after having spoken at a gathering, just the fact that I'll hang out and talk to people afterward and answer questions, I can't tell you how many of those young leaders I sort of broke this conception they had about what a CEO is. I would hang out and talk to them, they sort of grew up under this idea that if you're a CEO, you're in the ivory tower, you don't talk to anyone who's not in the C suite, which is, it's not how I operate. And they still value that. I mean, it's one of the things I get thanked for more than anything is thank you for being accessible. Thank you for being transparent. It's made me realize that there are not enough leadership models right now that lead in that way of authenticity, transparency, and being a good communicator, with humility, because the young generation, that's what they react to. It's what they respond to.

Adam: Yeah, you lead that way. And the best leaders in America lead that way. I've done interviews with so many great leaders on this podcast, and they say the same thing. And they might be leading nonprofit organizations, or they could be leading fortune 500 companies, but they'll share stories about the most powerful moments of their career being time spent, on the floor. A couple of examples, I did an interview with a former CEO of Home Depot. And he spoke about the power of taking selfies with employees in different Home Depots across America. I did an interview with the former CEO of Medtronic, he spoke about the importance of learning from the people on the ground, that's where you're gonna get the best information possible. So what you're sharing is universally applicable.

Suzanne: Yeah. And you know what it's interesting, I think it's a leadership trait that we still have an opportunity to expand further into our organizations. And to make it more of a leadership norm. I still think in some organizations, there's too much focus on the hierarchy. There's too much focus on the org chart. There's too much focus on who you report to and therefore who can you talk to you and not talk to. But I'm talking to colleagues, and I feel like we're all working on our culture. I think that's the opportunity in how we bring that kind of leadership throughout our organizations.

Adam: It's a really important point. Great leaders are focused on empowering others within their organizations to become great leaders. Something you mentioned which I want to touch on a little bit, you brought up the fact that right at the heart of the YMCA is the mission of strengthening the community. How can leaders across all types of organizations build and foster community? 

Suzanne: I think one of the most important core competencies of leadership moving into the next however many years or decades, is that leaders have to be really good at building partnerships. And recognizing that the organization that they lead can do so much. And recognize that together, we can do so much more. And so I preach the ability to build partnerships within our YMCA movement, and that's a core competency. And I would say it's the willingness to look up from your mission as a business or an organization and look for where are the places if you join with others that you could bring value to your community. So it takes a willingness to step outside sometimes, looking at your balance sheet or looking at your immediate needs and looking at where you can contribute to the mission of your organization in a partnership to make your community better and stronger. We all say each community is unique. And yet, almost every community is focused on so many of the same things like we all want our kids to be safe. We want our seniors to be safe. We want people to feel like they're connected and they belong. That’s core to who we are as a YMCA. And so I think it's the willingness to be a partner in an effort greater than yourselves and not only looking for opportunities where you're going to get the recognition. That's core to building for all leaders, no matter what kind of organization they're leading to sort of set the ego aside and look at how can I bring value in a bigger, more collective effort.

Adam: At the beginning of our conversation you mentioned the power of mentorship, the role that mentorship played personally for you, and allowing you to get to where you are today. Every YMCA around the country is fueled by great mentors. How can anyone be a great mentor? And more broadly, what are your best tips on the topic of mentorship?

Suzanne: Mentorship is and always has been a component of the YMCA, especially in our youth development program. Kids who have mentors are so much less likely to skip school and so much more likely to be successful in school. And so if we could just talk about focusing on the power of mentorship on young people, it'll, in some ways, prevent the need for intense mentorship later in life. And there are so many organizations that are doing incredible work and should probably make a plug for check out your local YMCA, there are so many different programs that involve volunteers where adults can be brought on as caring adult role models for young people. So that's just plain and simple mentorship, starting at the beginning. And it's not just us, there are organizations like Big Brothers, Big Sisters, Boys and Girls Clubs, and so many incredible organizations that need caring adults to come and mentor young people. So that's if you want to get started. And that's also a great opportunity for our younger professionals to start to practice mentorship. They want mentors, but it's also an opportunity for them to practice mentoring. And then I think leadership programs and opportunities that exist now in our communities are great places for young professionals to find mentors. When I had the opportunity to talk to our Emerging Leaders, I say, don't be shy to ask someone to be your mentor. I've been asked on multiple occasions. And I try to say yes as often as I can. But I couldn't say yes if someone didn't ask me.

Adam: Do you have any specific tips on how anyone can be a great mentor?

Suzanne: I think I'm a good mentor. And I think I'm a good mentor because I enter into the relationship with my mentee with the mindset that I'm going to learn as much from them as they're going to learn from me. I have experienced sharing. But I also think being a good mentor is asking good questions. Again, being a good listener and willing to learn. That's what I try to practice in my current mentoring relationships. And when I do that, I'm in a formal mentoring relationship right now with a young woman. And I find every time I walk away from my conversation with a cord that I probably learned as much or more from her than she learned from me. I think the old model is given get one person gives and the other person gets. I think it goes both ways. I don't know if that's a different model. But it's certainly the model that I've always experienced. And I think it's the right model.

Adam: Suzanne, what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Suzanne: It starts with a willingness to take a good look at yourself, how you show up your values, and how those are playing out in your personal and professional life. And then it's the self-awareness that we've been talking about. And then once you've identified the areas that you want to work on, figure out who can help you do that. And it could be through mentorship, it could be through a professional development program, it could be through your own commitment to healthy well-being and mental well-being. I mean, there's that whole personal side of us that really does drive how we show up as leaders. And so that self-care and that willingness to invest in your well-being you should join a Y is a great place to focus on your health and well-being and to connect with people who can help you. I say that jokingly but I actually mean it. I mean, that's one of the things that I think is so special about the Ys, we create places for people to come together and belong and make friendships and find support. So it's getting clear on what you're good at and getting clear what you want to work on. And then look around your community and explore where are the supports that could help you get to that Northstar for yourself.

Adam: Suzanne, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors. 

Suzanne: Thanks, Adam. It's been great. I really enjoyed the conversation. 

Adam: I really enjoyed it too.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally-recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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