I recently interviewed Thrivent CEO Teresa Rasmussen on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is a Fortune 500 CEO and the leader of one of the largest financial services companies in America. Teresa Rasmussen is the CEO of Thrivent, which generated $9.7 billion in revenue last year. Terry, thank you for joining us.

Teresa: Well, thank you, Adam. It's a privilege and a pleasure to be here.

Adam: The privilege is mine. You grew up right outside of Fergus Falls, Minnesota, on the Minnesota-North Dakota border. Both of your parents were grain farmers, and you grew up in a household where every dollar counted. Can you take listeners back to those days, those early days? What early experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

Teresa: Well, I did grow up on a grain farm in the middle of nowhere. And what I learned is the importance of hard work. I think for every child that grows up in a grain farm, their first job is to pick rocks. And I was a middle child, so we had three, my older sister and my younger brother. And my dad used to sit us down and talk to us about what we want to do for our vocation when we grew up, because my dad loved farming. That was, he had found his purpose. He said: I want you to find something that you love to do because you've got to do it a long time. My older sister was an artist and she loved art and she was a very successful artist. My younger brother loved farming. He followed in the footsteps of my father. And then there was me, the middle child, who was pretty clueless. 

And so, one day I remember my dad coming home and he knew that I gravitated toward service. I volunteered as a young child. I gravitated toward more healthcare and taking care of people. And so, he came home from the dentist one day and he said, we were talking about you and we think you should become a dental hygienist. because the money is good, the hours are good, and you can always find work. And so, I did. And it was when I was studying to become a dental hygienist that I discovered my gift was I love to learn. 

So, when I think about my career journey, I think about it in three chapters. So, my first chapter truly is discovering what I love to do, which is I love to learn. So, when I was even studying to become a dental hygienist, I was already plotting around, well, how can I go back to school? What should I focus on? I explored a lot of options but ended up getting my four-year degree in accounting because I could do that in 18 months because my goal was to get to graduate school. Much to my mother's dismay, she thought I was going to be a professional student for the rest of my life because I loved learning. But getting my degree in accounting enabled me to apply to law school, and I then went to law school. 

So, my first chapter is really that exploration of what are the gifts that I had. What is my purpose? And that was very, very important. So, if I move to the second chapter, I graduated law school and went to work for the United States Department of Justice Tax Division in Washington, D.C. And the one thing when you graduate law school, you know how to think, but you don't know much else. And I was thrown in the midst of trying cases on behalf of the United States government. But I had a section leader, my boss at the time, he pulled me in as he did all young lawyers in his section. And he sat me down and he said, Terry, he said, there's only two ways you can get fired from this joint. You can blow a statute of limitations or a request for admissions. He said: everything else here is fixable. What a gift, if you think about that, what a gift. 

And so, he set the parameters for me, which allowed me to try different things. It allowed me to question things and really expand my boundaries. What was the worst thing that would happen is I would learn something. And so, for me, it was very freeing around saying yes to things, also just challenging the status quo and saying, no, I think we should try this. So, it served me well. We came back to Minnesota and I then worked at a law firm. Then I went into the corporate world and spent quite a bit of time in the law department at American Express, Ameriprise, and at Thrivent here. And again, making sure that I could develop my leadership skills, that I could learn about all aspects of financial services. And so that continuing learning was always something that was important to me. 

So that is kind of like the second chapter. The third chapter is in 2015, my boss at the time asked if I had an interest in running our core business. And so, for me, that was leaving the practice of law and embracing and jumping into the business world. And I said, yes, and again, jumped in and started running our core business and found out that I loved that I was learning again. And I loved our business. I love Thrivent. We're such a unique organization. And so, in my third chapter here, I'm focusing on really sharing this incredible organization with more people, but also modernizing us. And so that we're equipped to serve today and tomorrow's generations.

Adam: Terry, you shared so much there that I want to unpack. I want to start off with a couple of questions that you asked yourself very early on in your journey, which are essential questions that everyone needs to ask themselves. What are my gifts? What is my purpose? What advice do you have for anyone, regardless of where they are in their journey on how to figure out the answers to those questions?

Teresa: So, it starts with, I think, your parents. And in my case, my dad was always asking and exploring questions with us kids. to make sure that we were finding what we love to do. Because having something that you love to do, he said, if you love what you're doing, it's not work. It's fun. It's a hobby. My older sister used to say, I can't believe I get paid for my hobby, because she loved art. And so, as parents, and I give this advice to the parents at Thrivent, and I did it before to all parents, is if your kids are struggling with what they love to do, help them explore. bring the world to them and so that they can see what excites them. 

And they might not get it right the first time. I can't tell you how many times I've shared advice with, if kids are going to college and they've decided they want to be one thing, if they change their mind and say, it's not for me and I'm finding in college what my gifts are, that's a really good thing. And so, you should encourage it. I think as parents, our goal is to make sure that our children find their purpose and actually can enjoy making a contribution and a difference in the world in what they love to do.

Adam: And that's something that I observed in your journey. You started off and followed your parents' advice and worked as a dental hygienist and then went to law school, worked for the Justice Department, went to work as an attorney in private practice, went into corporate America, started working at Thrivent, you weren't afraid to try all these different things and by trying different things by taking jobs in different fields different industries different verticals You ultimately figure out what it is. You love what it is. 

You're great at something that I tell audiences that I speak to when you're trying to figure out what you want to do with your life you want to try to check three boxes you want to number one do something that you love you want to number two do something that you're great at and number three something that you just touched upon you want to be able to do something that allows you to make a positive impact in the lives of others and When you're checking all three of those boxes Doesn't feel like work. You can wake up first thing in the morning Like we're doing today and you're fired up. You can't wait for the day to start. And it's late at night and the day ends. You have no energy left. You hit the pillow and you're excited for the next day to get started so you could get back at it.

Teresa: It's so true, especially when you know that you've got challenges in front of you and you're excited to embrace them and solve the challenge, the problems that you have in front of you. It's a great feeling. It's also a great feeling to make sure that the excitement and the joy that you have in coming to work and making a difference and seeing progress, how you express that becomes infectious to others. And so. It creates an environment where people are just really excited to come to work and actually make a difference in people's lives and say, wow, look at what we're doing and look at what we're doing together.

Adam: Such an important point, which is how you show up no matter who you are, no matter where you are on the organizational ladder impacts so many people around you. Your energy is contagious, infectious. If you show up and you're unenthusiastic, you don't want to be there, it's going to rub off on other people. But when you show up and you're fired up and you're ready to get at it, that's going to rub off on other people as well.

Teresa: Oh, so true. So true. And, and I think in our case, in creating the conditions in the environment where people can explore and feel free to learn. And I share frequently with the team here, I said, I'm a better CEO today than I was yesterday, and I'm clearly better than I was a year ago, and I'll be even better a year from now. And so, because of the continuous learning, we're always getting better each and every day.

Adam: What are those conditions that you focus on implementing within your organization to create the kind of culture, the kind of environment that allows everyone to show up at their best every day?

Teresa: I think it's being authentic. And a quick story, when I was a trial attorney for the United States Department of Justice, I had a business card that was pretty intimidating. and I would stand up in the courtroom and say my name and say I was representing the United States of America. That's intimidating to a lot of people, particularly when your client is the IRS. And so, I learned from an early on experience that the most important thing that I could do when I was asking questions of witnesses, when I was taking depositions, is to make the person feel comfortable because if you're scared, you're not going to get to the truth. 

And so, creating that environment where you could, people were more relaxed and that they could say the truth was incredibly important to me. It's the same in corporate America. Titles and positions can be intimidating for people. And so, you want to create the conditions where you're approachable. There are things that you do that sometimes they don't turn out the way that you want them to, and you should share that. Because as I always tell people, I said, there was no perfect line you could stand in. We all have flaws. We all make mistakes. 

The most important thing is, is how do we learn from them? And how do we give each other grace? And again, I mean, this gets back to my boss at the Justice Department, who basically said everything's fixable. And so, it's sharing. that sometimes things that you're doing, that you're pursuing, aren't going to turn out exactly the way you wanted them, and that's okay. Because it's the learning process that's important. The other thing that I find here, and it's not unique, we're in the life insurance business, and so our business is to manage risk, and yet you can't actually succeed in business without taking risk. And so, it's also creating those conditions and expectations. 

And so, several years ago, it was still when I was the general counsel, and my friend at work, the CFO, we embarked on a program that we called Rules Busters. And we were trying to help the organization go from a rules-based culture to more of a principles-based culture. In addition, we were really focusing on risk management. And in that particular case, I used this analogy, because I grew up on a farm and we had horses, and I said, the first thing you have to do as an individual is you have to self-reflect on your risk tolerance because we all have different risk tolerances. 

And we have different risk tolerances depending on what we're looking at, the circumstances we're looking at. We may take lots of risk in our personal lives and take no risk in our professional lives. And so, we have to first assess, where am I in that risk tolerance scale? I shared with our team, I said, growing up in a farm with horses, I said, you can be a horse that you're really comfortable tethered to a post. You got water, you got feed, you don't have to move anywhere. You're really comfortable in that space. There are other horses out there that are running wild. They're in the mountains, they're running wild. 

And I said, our job as leaders here is to construct a corral. And so, we take the horses running wild and we have to put them in the corral, which means we have to talk to them about risk boundaries. But we also have to untether that horse at the post, give them a little swat on the butt and say, get running. And so, the important thing is you need to know, are you the horse that wants to be tethered, where you have to actually be encouraged to take a bit more risk? Or are you that horse that wants to run wild, in which case you've got to have someone save you from yourself and so that You're, you're in the boundaries of appropriate risk taking.

Adam: You're hitting on so many important themes that tie directly into leadership. What makes great leaders great? Self-awareness. You mentioned the importance of leaders needing to make people around them feel comfortable, approachability, accessibility. Leaders need to create an environment where Everyone in their organization feels free to experiment Isn't afraid to make mistakes Feels free to challenge the status quo feels free to be themselves How do leaders do that by? being authentic by being approachable by being accessible by leading by example That is so true.

Teresa: It is creating the conditions in the environment where they feel if you're able to unleash the power of people, it's amazing what people can accomplish. And you really have to allow that. Things don't happen just because a leader tells people what to do. We have this amazing talent there. Our frontline folks see and interact with our clients each and every day. they're the best people to actually tell us what improvements do we need to make. And so, in our particular case, and as is many, many organizations, we are moving from the old-fashioned hierarchical top-down decision-making to really empowering our frontline to actually see what needs to be done and just go do it. 

That takes also a different form of leadership. It's a leadership of empowering, celebrating, welcoming, and celebrating progress. It's moving away from a culture that has to have everything planned. You deliver something on time, on budget, with those requirements. Those days are shifting as we're moving into this new model. 

And it's much more empowering for employees because they know they're the closest to the work. They know what needs to be done. And it's creating those conditions and support so that they can get the work done. It's removing barriers for them to actually accomplish great things.

Adam: What do you believe are the key characteristics of the most successful leaders? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Teresa: So, I know empathy is kind of sometimes an overused word, but I think it's important. And what I mean by that is listening. You need to be a really good listener. And at Thrivent here, I am so proud of our workforce because we're really good listeners. And listening sometimes also means pulling things out of people. And so, if someone's having a bad day, understanding and asking questions and helping them. Listening is also giving people their full attention and making sure you're observing not only what they're saying, but how they're saying it. 

So, I'm going to use another old example of going back to when I was a trial attorney at the Justice Department. I used to write out every question that I was going to ask a witness. And I remember there was a U.S. attorney who used to tease me about that. He goes, Terry, you shouldn't have to do that. 

And I said, I do because it gives me the confidence to be a better listener. Because I know what I have to cover, because I've outlined all of the questions that I need to ask. But the answers I get will also help me navigate and ask follow-up questions. And it makes me a better listener. And the most important thing I can do is be a great listener. And my advice is making sure you're taking the time to truly listen and not think, okay, how am I going to respond to this person? Empathy is really that true listening, that there's nothing else more important than that person in the room and you've got to listen to them.

Adam: One of the things that you're most focused on today as a leader, leading your organization through transformation. How can leaders lead organizations through transformation? How can leaders navigate change, and manage change? What advice do you have?

Teresa: I think the self-awareness of your leadership and some of the traits that you have is also important. So as a leader, what I've discovered over time is I'm fairly nimble with respect to change. but not everybody is. And it doesn't matter how fast I go through change. What matters is how fast the organization embraces change. That's a bunch of individuals who we need to all go together. And so, it's being clear. It's being consistent. It's actually being honest, too. Change is hard. It is uncomfortable. 

And so, making sure that when people are uncomfortable, they know it's okay. There's another quote that if you talk to people, they'll say, Terry always says this. If you're not uncomfortable, you're not growing and developing as a person or a leader, because you have to get in that uncomfortable zone in order to grow and develop. It's the same with change. You have to, like it or not, go through that uncomfortableness in order to emerge through it. and the organization, we have to all sign up for that and know what's going to happen and know there are going to be some days that you are just on cloud nine because everything is just going so well and then there are setbacks and we just have to support each other through all of those.

Adam: How as a leader do you get buy-in for that? How do you get people to push their comfort zones to sign up for something that doesn't feel very good?

Teresa: One of the most important things that I've experienced through my career is, I call them champions, but they're also individuals who have given me honest feedback. And I say feedback is a gift. And there are times when I say I ruffle people's feathers a little bit because I want to push them because I see so much potential in them. And if I can just push them a little bit, it will all of a sudden just be the breakthrough for them. It happens. And so, it's that first feedback is a gift. It's because we care about each other. And it's important. Culture is at the team level. 

And so, you want the team to be successful. And so, you want to create that feedback loop, which it's, wow, that was terrific. You've got to make sure that you're saying that was great. You did a great job. And sometimes I ask people, well, how do you think that went? And they'll go, eh, not so great. And I said, yeah, let's talk about that. And what did you learn from it? And next time, there's going to be a next time. So how are you going to approach it differently? And those are the things that I think as leaders you can help people with. And so, it's got to be done with care. I mean, it's because you care about that individual.

Adam: Which is so important? leaders who care, goes back to what you said earlier on, leaders who have empathy, who demonstrate empathy, are leaders who resonate, are leaders who people want to work for, are leaders who people are willing to take that leap for, willing to listen to and push their comfort zone when the leader asked them to do something that they might not necessarily otherwise be comfortable doing.

Teresa: It's so important. And over the course of my career, I have had great people pull me aside and give me critiques. There were times with public speaking, Terry, why don't you start this? Why don't you try this? There were, I mean, written materials, it's interactions with colleagues. I mean, I've had so many champions in my career that have really helped me along the way. And that's what champions do, and we should all aspire to be champions for the people we care about.

Adam: I want to go back to your journey You have an unconventional journey. You don't have the biography of a typical Fortune 500 CEO. How have you been able to get to where you are? What were the keys to navigating the path to the C-suite of a Fortune 500 company? And what advice do you have for anyone listening on what they can do to rise within their career?

Teresa: I often laugh and say, yeah, there's probably not too many dental hygienists, CPA lawyers, you know, Fortune 500 CEOs out there. And if there's another one, I would like to meet them. But my mother always said, well, you know, you could probably always find a job. I said, yes. But I think the best advice I can give people what I've done throughout my career is I've said yes to opportunities. And early on in my legal career, particularly in corporate America, it was saying yes to opportunities. And it was seeing where you could add value. And so, in my case, American Express was my first experience in corporate America. And I was hired as a retail bank and trust lawyer. 

At the time, the junior lawyers also had to support the investment department in their private placement area. And when I joined, there was not much deal activity. It was more that there were troubled companies. There were companies running into trouble and it was before, it was before Wall Street and a lot of people understood the inner workings of creditors rights and bankruptcy and all those types of things. And I had that background and so I started supporting our investment department in seeing where we could add value, we could create value by restructuring companies. 

So, it's seeing those things where you can add value, where you can actually help the organization and as a result, you know, I built my own brand there. And so, when you have a brand of getting things done, a critical thinker, problem solver, you get opportunities. And then the important thing is you say yes to those opportunities. And so as other opportunities happen, they would come to me and say, would you have an interest in this? Sure, I'll try it. And I would try it. It's the same thing in my career at Thrivent here. 

I was brought in as the general counsel but over the course of time, I was also given other opportunities. I was given the communications department. I was given government affairs. I was given business risk management. I was then given some business opportunities while I was the general counsel, the member engagement. But my brand was that I could get things done. I could assemble a team. I could lead a team and we could have fun along the way and get stuff done.

Adam: Say yes. Focus on building your own brand. Focus on getting things done. Focus on working as well as you can with other people, leading other people, making things happen. That's what it's all about.

Teresa: It gets recognized and rewarded. And so you are given opportunities to grow and develop in your career and as a leader. And eventually, it can lead to the position as CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

Adam: Something interesting about Thrivent. Thrivent has been consistently named among the world's most ethical companies. In your experience, why is ethics so important to successful leadership and to success in business more broadly? And how can leaders build ethical companies?

Teresa: Well, it starts at the tone at the top. And you've got to make sure that the moral compass of the organization is we do what's right. When I joined Thrivent, I found this amazing culture. It was embedded in the organization. It was a culture of integrity and ethics. And so, we just built on that and encouraged people. It is that if you see something, or say something, it is the, we always do what's right. 

And it's expected of the organization. I'll give you a couple of stories. We have financial advisors who are across the country who are incredible listeners. and they are always going to do what's right for the client because they're great listeners. I tell this great story about how we went to the homes of our clients several years ago with an ethnographic researcher and we were just asking a series of questions and then the next day the executive team came back and we debriefed on what we heard. 

One story came out where a client, had a child who had gotten into an incredibly prestigious school, and they wanted to pay for his college education. And their financial advisor at the time said, no, that would be bad. You would jeopardize your retirement. You shouldn't do that. He should take out a student loan. They, of course, went shopping for a financial advisor after that advice, and they found a thriving financial advisor who sat down with them and they told their story. And he said, first, well, congratulations. You must be so proud of your son. And they were. 

And he said we can figure this out. He goes, I can find a way where, yes, you can pay his college tuition, but you don't have to sacrifice your retirement either. And what our advisors do so well, and I think what we do as an organization well, is we're extremely good in the financial space and what I call the head math. But money and your life are all about emotions. And so, we're also really good at listening and making sure we're building for the heart. And that's what we do. 

Another example that happened, and was during the pandemic, and we had a call into the call center and the daughter of one of our clients who was in long-term care in a facility. She called and said, I'm really concerned about my mother. She's experiencing isolation. And I just hear in her voice when I talk to her that she's declining. And she said, would you still pay the claim if we took her home? So, our care professional, our call professional, ran it up the flagpole and came back and said, yeah, absolutely we will. 

And so, they brought their mother home with them. And nine months later, they called us back and said, just let you know that our mom is back in the facility now and she's going to be celebrating her birthday. I think she was turning 92 in June. And it's because of you that we know that she's here to celebrate that birthday. And so it is that doing the right thing is all about it is ethics. It's integrity. It's doing what's right.

Adam: Not being transactional about relationships actually caring about whoever it is that you're Interacting with whether it's your customer whether it's your colleague whether it's your employee listening caring Starts at the top and trickles down It does it does Terry what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Teresa: An important part of success is, I believe, self-awareness and creating the conditions where people can give you feedback. I think the other thing is also asking for help and advice. The workplace here is changing. The skills needed are changing. Making sure that you're keeping up your skills, you're curious, you're learning, and just knowing that and sharing with someone that you're interested in your growth and development, that you want to grow and develop and make a bigger impact is important. 

So, I think having those conversations and really being clear on what is it that you want to accomplish. What is it that you want to do? What is your purpose as an individual? And so find the organization that will fit that and then continue to grow and develop along your career journey. It does come back to, I hate to say it, but being curious and saying yes.

Adam: Terry, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of 30-Minute Mentors.

Teresa: This was so much fun, Adam. Thank you so much.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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