I recently interviewed TruStage CEO Terrance Williams on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is the leader of one of the largest insurance companies in America. Terrence Williams is the CEO of Truestage, which generated nearly five and a half billion dollars in revenue last year. Terrence, thank you for joining us.

Terrance: Thank you for having me. I'm excited for this conversation.

Adam: Excited that you're here. You grew up in a small town outside of Charleston, South Carolina. Your dad was a construction worker and your mom was an educator. You went to college at the University of South Carolina, where you earned a bachelor's degree in risk management and insurance. Two topics that you're an authority on today. Can you take listeners back to those days, those early days? What early experiences and lessons shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

Terrance: It's a really good question. Like many, when you're growing up as a kid, you may not always have a full appreciation for what's being poured into you. But make no mistake, as a child growing up, much of who I am today was formed based on my experiences, my observations, and what I saw as a kid growing up outside of Charleston, South Carolina. I was blessed in that I grew up in a two-parent household. Mom and Dad were leaders in this community that I grew up in. And even though I didn't realize it at the time, They were the go-to people in my community, in my neighborhood, when someone had an issue, when there was a challenge, whether it be a marital issue, a problem, a wayward child, someone lost a loved one. My parents were often who everyone came to. So my dad was the elder in the church I grew up in. So he was somewhat of a leader through that lens. But he also was that person that just people came to for advice and for counsel, et cetera. So while I didn't see it or realize it at the time because when you're a kid, when you're eight years old or 10 or 12 years old, and you are constantly watching as people are coming to your home, sitting in the family room with your dad, talking about stuff, you don't have a full appreciation for what that means, what it represents, et cetera. But as I grew older, I recognized that my dad was such an influence in the community I grew up in. And he was influenced in a couple of ways. Number one, as I said, being the elder in the church I grew up in, He was always that person that looked after someone when they were under the weather or when they were sick. If they needed counsel or advice, they came to him. But I also observed he was that person who was very involved, just from a community betterment standpoint. And I often make this joke that, bless, that my mom and dad are still with me to this day. They're 86 and 82 years old. So, my dad, at 86 today, it was only about less than a decade ago, I actually stopped him from driving the church van to pick up people to take to the polls to vote during Election Day. And it's like, Dad, to be in the van, not driving the van at your age. But I grew up watching that. Someone who, if you think about growing up in the South, my parents came of age during a period of time, in the South when things were very different than they are today. I often tell the story that my dad is one of the smartest people I know, and when he was 18 years of age, he couldn't go to college where I went to school. because blacks weren't allowed at the University of South Carolina when my dad was of college age. But seeing that and witnessing that over the years, just poured into me this need for commitment to community, for giving back, for paying it forward. They also instilled in me this professional work ethic, if you will, because I was always told you can accomplish or do anything. with education, preparation, with hard work. Those three ingredients will allow you to do anything in life. Despite the fact that some people may look at you differently when you walk into the room because of the color of your skin. So those are the lessons that I took from my youth and I could share a hundred stories that really lived into how that came into being.

Adam: Wow. I love that. And there's so much to unpack As you're talking about your parents, as you're talking about your dad, something that jumps out to me is so often we think about leadership as a title. We think about leadership as something that is associated with what our role is in our company. Are we a CEO, a president, a manager? Are we the boss? What power do we have? In reality, every single one of us has the capacity to be a leader. Your ability to be a leader is not indexed to any kind of job title. In fact, it's not indexed to anything at all related to your profession, or your vocation. Your dad is as perfect an example of that as any. I opened up our conversation by mentioning that your dad was a construction worker, but that's just one small piece of who your dad was. Elder in the church, a leader in the community, someone who led by example in his 80s, driving people to vote in South Carolina.

Terrance: I couldn't agree more. And it's interesting. I say what you just mentioned all the time. What I'll hear often is, Hey, I'd like leadership experience, or I'd like to be promoted. And I tell them, leadership is not simply what your business card says. Leadership is about you taking responsibility for something. It's about you leading an effort, not leading a team. It's about your ability to engage and to convince others down a certain path, to lay out a plan. Leadership is so many things that oftentimes in the corporate world, we confuse it with, what does my business card say? I employ the belief that you can lead regardless of your role. And that's true. I think you said it well. My dad was a really good example of that. dropped out of high school as a teenager, went back and got his GED, and worked in road construction all of his life, literally. But the professional kind of side of who he was, very different from the community side of who he was. And that's where I saw the leadership piece. That's where I saw this commitment to community that literally was ingrained within me as a kid, even when I didn't realize it was being ingrained within

Adam: What do you believe are the key characteristics of a great leader and what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Terrance: It's a few things there. I always say that it's really important that a leader is selfless and has a level of humility. Think about it through this lens. Because of my title, there are some who will always want to tell me what they think I'd like to hear. And the leader, the really effective leader, is one who can create an environment where people are comfortable engaging and talking to you about the real of what's going on, as opposed to just what they think you'd like to hear. And it requires a level of humility. It requires a level of you being approachable. It requires you being someone who can engage with anyone in your organization, regardless of their level, their title, et cetera. To me, that's what leadership is about. And then finally, I often say that when it goes wrong, I'll take the blame. When it goes right, it was a team effort. And I think that also represents what a true leader does overall. What can we do to better ourselves as leaders? It goes to some of the pieces I mentioned there about being humble, about creating an open door, about creating a sense of approachability so that everyone's comfortable engaging with you. But it also includes someone who really has mastered listening. And too often in the corporate world, leaders at certain levels in the organization feel that they have all the answers as opposed to the need to listen. And I say this regularly, even if you have the answers, listening really matters because everyone wants to feel that they're part of the solution, that they're part of the dialogue, and that they played a role in helping set this direction. So even when you think you know the answer, Listening really, really matters. And that's something that I think anyone can work on to better themselves as a leader.

Adam: How can anyone improve as a listener?

Terrance: There are several things. And because listening has been on my development plan for 25 years, I won't say that I'm an authority in this space, but I'm definitely someone who can share with you what I've done to enhance my listening skills. Number one, I try to ensure that I'm always pausing and giving everyone a chance to voice their perspective. Even when I think I know the answer, even when I'm ready to move on, I want to make sure that I'm giving everyone time to get their perspective heard, so to speak. There are other little things I do. When I'm one-on-one with someone, I'm always, always, always going to pause and look them eye-to-eye and try to engage in a conversation with them before we start talking about the work of the day or the tactical list that we have for our one-on-one. I'm always going to find ways to make sure that I'm pausing after a point to ensure that giving the other person the chance to respond or to say something. And so that I'm not rambling for 20 minutes, which I can do easily. So I just think that there's an art to listening that many leaders take for granted or they fail to acknowledge the need to get better in this space. So there are various tactics that one can deploy to better yourself as a listener. And I would encourage anyone who is a leader to really ensure that they're practicing some of those habits.

Adam: Terrence could not agree with you more. Great leaders are great listeners. You ticked off so many of the most important characteristics of the very best leaders. Humility, accountability, selflessness, which really speaks to the importance of servant leadership. When you spoke about listening, so much of what you shared ties back to the importance of humility. If you're someone who is intent on hearing yourself speak, you're probably someone who doesn't really care what other people have to say. Whereas if you're someone who genuinely wants to hear what other people are bringing to the table, if you're someone who is seeking the perspectives of others, if you're someone who genuinely wants to listen, it's because you're a humble person. It's because you recognize that you don't have all the answers, and that there are people around you who probably have information that can improve your perspective, that can improve your approach, that can improve your decision-making.

Terrance: Absolutely. Absolutely. One other add to this list that we're talking about and compiling here that fits into everything we're talking about is the effective leader doesn't take themselves too seriously. So said another way, it really is about not just the humility piece, but it's about recognizing that we should all be on a journey of continuous learning. We should all recognize that there are things that I'm pretty good at, but there are things that aren't a strength for me. But the humility to recognize that, the humility to not take myself too seriously because of what my business card says, that doesn't mean that I know the answers to all things or I'm good at everything. So it's a well-rounded kind of approach and way of thinking for someone to really try to zero in and practice this art of leadership and to really zero in on how do I become a better leader every day of the week.

Adam: when you brought up how important it is for leaders to not take themselves too seriously, I think back to leader after leader after leader who I've interviewed on Thirty Minute Mentors, who I've gotten to know, governors, generals, who deploy self-deprecating humor, not as a tactic, but as a way of life, who are the most serious people with the most serious levels of responsibility, but don't take themselves so seriously.

Terrance: Right. Adam, it's so interesting for you to share that. Something that I started doing many years ago that is just second nature for me now. So physically, I'm a big person. I'm 6'4". So as an individual who is 6'4", just my mere stature or six, four people all the time. Now, if you're hanging out with the Lakers or with the… In fact, I'd be short by their standards. But in typical everyday walks of life, I'm on the tall side, general society. So, because some people can be intimidated by that, I have always, always, always used humor as a means of relaxing people, of helping them to feel comfortable about engaging with me. And using humor as a means of just setting the tone, so to speak, so that everyone's relaxed. Everyone is recognizing that Terrence is a regular guy and not to be intimidated by my title, by my size, or anything else for that matter. So agree.

Adam: Terrence, if you have any advice for listeners and for me in particular on how to become six foot four, I would love to know any thoughts that you have on that topic.

Terrance: Adam, I can offer you some perspectives on leadership. I don't know that I can lend anything on this one. So here's a crazy story I grew to this height by the time I was 17. I grew up very fast and my coaches thought I was going to have this incredible career because I would keep growing and I stopped growing at six, four. So can't offer you anything on that one.

Adam: So instead of playing basketball at South Carolina, you studied risk management and insurance.

Terrance: That's exactly it.

Adam: How did you rise within your career? How did you get to where you are today? CEO of one of the largest companies in America. And how can anyone rise within their career?

Terrance: I take it back to the words of advice that my parents gave to me as long as I can remember. I don't even remember what age I was when I started hearing that, but it was poured into me so often around this notion of education, preparation, hard work, and those pieces. But to get a double click on those pieces in the corporate world in particular, I would say that consider the assignment that has a high degree of difficulty. Consider the they're fearful, well, that's going to be really hard to do. That's not a good career move. Consider that assignment. I did in my career. I would look for those opportunities. It was a very long putt. And, sometimes, looking for that opportunity that is representative of the 22-foot putt can yield benefits for you when you're able to successfully sink the shot overall. So, look for those difficult opportunities that some would shy away from. Number two, I always encourage people to make sure you're focused on the chair you're sitting in today. Sometimes our ambitions can get the best of us and we're so focused on the next step that we fail to really execute and perform in the chair we're sitting in. And I would say the admission ticket to being considered for that next role is to really hit it out of the park for the chair you're sitting in today. Find ways to exceed expectations. Find ways to be a leader amongst leaders. Find ways to ensure that you're delivering against all the things that your team is expected to deliver against. And make sure that you are bringing others along and you're developing people as you're doing these things. I would say anyone can get resolved through a short window of time, but some of the tactics you deploy probably aren't going to benefit the organization or the team long-term. The leader who's leading and there's a wake behind, a wake of calamity behind them, that's not what you want to do. You want to find ways to deliver results and bring people along and develop others, et cetera. So those are some of the advice, and key points that I would share with someone who's trying to figure out, how do I get ahead. How do I move to the next level? Those are some of the points that I typically share.

Adam: Consider the tough assignments. Look for difficult opportunities. If things go well, you're going to move up. If things don't go well, you're not going to get penalized for trying because at the end of the day, you put yourself out there. You took a risk. It didn't work. Okay. You're going to, if anything, be rewarded for taking on a challenge, even if it didn't work out.

Terrance: You got it. Exactly. Exactly. I brought up the Lakers in sports earlier. I liken that approach and that thinking to in today's professional sports world, particularly in the NFL, and these players that bet on themselves where they may not take the franchise tag number or they may not take a certain amount because they're going to bet on themselves. And they're going to bet that my last year of my contract, I'm going to outperform it. And that's going to set the tone for my earnings the following year. So betting on themselves, I think of the corporate world, the same way about betting on yourself that you can accomplish something through this difficult assignment. And to your point, the organization recognizes the degree of difficulty. Oftentimes, someone doesn't want to step into that chair because others recognize the challenges associated with it. So if you don't hit the mark, but you get close, you'll likely be rewarded for it.

Adam: I also like the focus on not only ensuring that you're focused on, in your words, the chair that you're sitting in today, the role that you have today, your current job, your current assignment, but ensuring that you're bringing others along with you. that you're not only focused on your own individual performance, but you're focused on elevating the performance of those around you, not only excelling as an individual contributor, but excelling as a leader.

Terrance: Absolutely. I can't take credit for this because a leader that I worked with many, many, many years ago, had the saying that I've adopted, and I use it all the time now in interviews, I usually say this, but if you're thinking of your career journey over the last five years or 10 years or whatever, who professionally exists because of you? Who can you say that you were involved in mentoring and supporting and being a coach for? Who exists professionally because of you? And that question, while it sounds pretty simple, People who struggle to really put words together around that are typically not people who've done what we're describing, who are really focused on development of others, on bringing their teams along and preparing the next generation of talent, etc. And in my view, that's as much a part of your responsibilities as a leader as it is to deliver results.

Adam: And there's no place where that's more visible than going back to the example you shared in sports. You look at football and you look at the coaching tree of great coaches, starting off with Bill Walsh and his coaching tree. But you look at Bill Parcells and you look at all the great coaches. It's not only about their individual success, but it's about the success of the great coaches who they mentored over the years, who exist because of their existence.

Terrance: Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. Take that one step further. I'm a big sports fan, as you may have guessed. of Tony Dungy and what he's done from a coaching standpoint. I'm just an admirer of his in general, just from a leadership standpoint, etc. And if you look at his coaching tree, to your point, and you look at all of the coaches around the NFL who were involved in his organization in some form or fashion, it's a long list of people. And there's a lot of coaches out there who fits into that criteria, whether it be Belichick, Parcells, Dungey, et cetera. But I agree that is representative of your ability to develop others and to bring them along. And yeah, I'd like to say from a corporate standpoint, I want to be able to look back on my career and think about the impact, even if a small impact that I've had on leaders who are doing great things in the professional world.

Adam: You look at other leaders who you admire, you mentioned Tony Dungy, we can talk all day and all night about football, about sports. There are common themes that are there among the very best leaders. And one of them is the ability to build successful cultures. I know that's a big focus for you in your role as CEO of Truestage. In your experience, what are the keys to building winning organizational culture?

Terrance: Yeah. Culture is one of the most important elements. Outside of developing others and delivering results, culture is something that every leader should be focused on. Because remember, there's a corporate culture within an organization, and then there's some degrees or subcultures that exist within different parts of a company. And first, it's about really understanding what is the current state of the culture within your team, within your organization overall. And then once you can reach that realization, Are there things about this culture that I'm comfortable with that are really, really a strength for us? Or the flip side of that, are there things about our culture that I'd like to see evolve or begin to shift or begin to move down a different pathway? And having been at True Stage for a while now, I have recognized that there's so many strengths about our culture. But there are also things that I believe we should be evolving. And what should a leader do to focus on that? It really involves a few different things. Number one, being blatantly, brutally honest about the opportunities. I heard one of my other heroes is Ken Chenault, the former Amex CEO from years ago, who talks about being brutally honest about the facts and not sugarcoating it, but just being brutally honest. I think it's important for leaders to be brutally honest about culture within an organization. And things that aren't exactly where you may want them are things that may not be up to par based on the direction the company is going in. How do you be brutally honest with folks about where that is? And then what are the steps you can take to address that? Some of them may be about creating leadership expectations so that your leaders understand here's what is required of me as a leader within this organization. Some of it is a competency-based hiring and interviews. When you're hiring people, really vetting and double-clicking on how they could contribute culturally to what you're trying to drive overall. And the last piece I talk a lot about is accountability and really ensuring that I'm measuring what I expect and I'm holding people accountable for things that are furthering our calls from to this based on where you are and everyone starts in a different place but those are some of the things that I've done over the years trying to get after culture and how important it is within an organization.

Adam: In terms, one of the key themes among all the advice that you shared is the importance of ensuring that you have the right people on your team. You can't build a great culture without having the right people who fit your culture. People who are committed to honesty, committed to facts, committed to living in a world of reality, committed to accountability, to all the principles we've been talking about. Yes. What do you look for in the people who you hire and what are your best tips on the topic of hiring?

Terrance: Some of them we've talked about already, but I'll add a couple of others. First, just the process of hiring. I spend quite a bit of time during the hiring process. Whereas some leaders may delegate that, some leaders may have different approaches to that. I am really embedded and involved in Because my belief is I want to not simply understand their track record from a performance standpoint. I want to really understand who they are. I want to understand what makes them tick. I want to understand will their beliefs align with who we are as a company. I'll give you an example. A community is really important to me and to our organization. So when I hire a leader, my assumption is that they will become involved in the community. They will become involved in a nonprofit group or within an organization, or they'll find the ways to be involved in something. And I don't dictate the what. but I do want everyone involved. And a leader or a person who has so much going on in their world or in their lives that they may not have time for volunteerism or for community work, that may not fit what we're trying to get to from a cultural standpoint. It may not align with who we are overall. So spend a lot of time during the selection process is something that I do. And making sure there's alignment with who we are as an organization and with what these leaders bring to the table, or making sure that something that we're trying to strengthen or drive, that they bring that to the table so that they can begin to help us shape the culture within the organization overall. So I have a process that I use and I look for a number of different things within leaders. Obviously, we talked about the who exists because of you and developing others, the ability to craft a vision, and to craft a North Star, if you will, and to build followership. And that's a word that I don't think we talk enough about within the corporate world. But leadership is about followership. And people will do what I say because of my title. But any discretionary effort that's required, anything that's beyond the norm or beyond the typical work week, that comes because someone believes in what you're trying to do. You've been able to craft a level of followership with your team that drives that. So I seek those kinds of attributes within people when I'm hiring. But the most important piece to me is you should take your time when you're hiring and not rush through that process.

Adam: You shared a lot of great advice. Starting off with the fact that you're personally invested in the process. Leadership starts at the top and it starts with you as a leader leading by example, you as a leader caring, by you taking charge, by you ensuring that you're involved in the hiring process, That message is sent to everyone in your organization that this is a priority and this is going to get done right. A word that wasn't brought up but has nonetheless been loud and clear through out this entire conversation, as you're talking about the importance of what you look for in the people who you hire, as you talk about what you care about in building a successful culture, as you talk about what drives you as an individual, the importance of values. Ensuring that you as a leader know what your values are, are clear about what your organization's values are, and are clear about what you want in the people who you're hiring when it comes to what their values are. And do your values align with their values? And do your values and their values align with your organizational values?

Terrance: Yeah, you're correct. about for the last 20 minutes or however long I've been talking really centers around values and around just alignment with the company, et cetera. I often talk about, I don't think I've said this yet here in the city, I talk a lot about purpose. And I believe that we all have a purpose, but very few of us are able to articulate what is our purpose? Why am I here? What is our purpose? And not to get too far down a path on this, but I talk a lot about my purpose, my personal purpose of living a life of impact and being able to assist and aid others. And the fact that my personal purpose aligns with the values and the purpose of True Stage. And one of the leading factors as to why I am at True Stage is because of that. Because my personal purpose aligns with our values and with our corporate purpose. So when you're in an interview with someone asking them, what do you see as your purpose? And you'll see how long it takes someone to think through that. And some will answer it pretty quickly because they've given thought to it in the past and others will come up with something that you can tell was literally developed in the last 30 seconds.

Adam: For anyone listening who might not have clarity around what their purpose is, what advice do you have?

Terrance: Oh, goodness. This, in my view, requires some level of reflection and some level of really thinking about what matters most to you as an individual, as a person. And then what role do you play societally? What role do you play? Your purpose may be that you want to raise your children into productive adults. Your purpose may be beyond that. And taking this all the way back to early in this conversation about watching my parents from a community standpoint and watching them, even when I didn't realize what they were doing, as I grew into an adult and look back, I saw what they were doing. That's why I said my purpose is clearly to live a life of impact and to contribute to the betterment of others because I saw it being done. And if I were to ask my dad, Can you articulate for me your purpose?" I have no doubt that he would say, my dad's a very spiritual man, he's very dedicated to his faith, and his purpose would be linked to his faith and the betterment of the community. I have no doubt about that. So I just think that it requires some reflection, some inter-soul searching to really think about who you are and what's most important to you, and the difference that you wish to make. Because we all want to live a life of impact and make a difference, but how? What does that mean? So those are the words that I would encourage others to contemplate as you're trying to formulate, what is my purpose overall?

Adam: Terence, what can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

Terrance: Success is really defined by the individual. What does success mean and how can you be more successful? I've been married for 28 years and my wife, we've moved all over the country. We've moved eight or 10 times and my wife is a stay at home mom and my boys are now almost gone. But her purpose has been to really ensure that the Williams household ran. in an efficient manner, in a productive manner, that our sons had everything that they needed, with help from me, obviously. But she took the A, took the accountability in leading some of those efforts, and that was her purpose. Now, as my boys are getting older and gone, she's now recentering her efforts around what is her purpose, what is she focused on from a success standpoint. And for her, It really now has begun to shift to not doing what we did with our boys, but how does she do that for others? Meaning, are there volunteer groups? Are there nonprofit groups that help from a mentoring standpoint? She works with a group locally who is there for teenagers who are expecting a child in an unexpected pregnancy. So she's now transformed what she did as our boys were coming of age into kind of a second career. That still carry some of the same purpose and her success now isn't linked to our sons as much but it's now linked to the differences that she can make from a societal standpoint i believe that we all can play a role in being successful depending on what's most important to us and what our purposes in life i don't equate success to your net worth are to the size of the company you lead, are to the size of your home, blah, blah, blah. I equate success to fulfillment in I'm making a difference. I'm doing things that matter. I'm leaving the community better than it was before I touched it. And I think anyone can do that regardless of where you are in life.

Adam: Terence, thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Terrance: I really appreciate the opportunity and for the time here. I could talk about leadership for hours and hours and hours. So thank you.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

Follow Adam on Instagram and Twitter at @adammendler and on LinkedIn and listen and subscribe to Thirty Minute Mentors on your favorite podcasting app.