I recently interviewed Tony Bates on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam:  Our guest today has served in leadership roles at several of America's best-known technology companies. Tony Bates was the CEO of Skype and is currently the CEO of Genesys, a multibillion-dollar customer experience software business. Tony is also the author of the new book, Empathy In Action: How to Deliver Great Customer Experiences at Scale. Tony, thank you for joining us.

Tony: Thank you, Adam. It's a pleasure to be with you today.

Adam: You grew up in London to a mom who was a hairdresser and to a stepdad who worked in construction. You dropped out of college pretty quickly. And while most kids your age were studying in school, you were working at a school. You were working at the University of London. And during your commute to and from work, you read programming books, and ultimately taught yourself how to code. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What were the key experiences and lessons that shaped your worldview and shaped the trajectory of your success?

Tony: Yeah, it's a long way back. But, a quick story here about a couple of things that really shaped me. What happened for me, as I started a mechanical engineering degree, wasn't enjoying it too much, but was really taken by the use of programming as a form of writing the technical journal. And so, in those days, we used a language called Fortran 77. There was a library and what it allowed you to do was present your technical paper in a very beautiful way. And I've never had an experience with a computer, we didn't have the kind of financial wherewithal. And so, I felt, I loved this idea of computing. But I really wanted to get some practical experience. And so, I applied to be a computer operator. And basically, in those days, we're talking about supercomputers with punch cards and tapes. And I interviewed at the University of London, and the quick story is as I got the job, it was a very basic shift based job where you'd essentially blow punch cards to run these things that they call jobs, run the programming, and then the output would come back on paper. And as I was walking out the door, the supervisor that was hiring me said, “Look, there's also this job for a network operator and they're really in need. Would you like to talk to them?”. And I said, “Of course, sure”. And I remember this very clearly going into a pretty small room, just being enamored with these flashing lights, and these racks, and it's what I thought computers were, instead of these big washing machines with spinning tape drives at the time. And I said I'm gonna go for it. And I was very fortunate to be the nexus of the beginnings of, really, the foundational elements of the internet as we knew it in the U.K. And I was incredibly lucky to be around some amazing mentors. And we took on these projects. And so we ran the ARPANET gateway. Think of it as the precursor to the commercialization of the internet. It just really suited my passion. And what it gave me was a view into what ethernet could be and how large it could be. And just the power of the uses. And the access to information was just incredible to me. But I could also see beyond it. Think about this timeframe. It was in the mid ’80s, so there was no browser. Not even Mosaic had been invented, or Netscape it became, and so on. But it, really, soon formed part of my leadership thinking, is that you always need to think bigger. There is always a bigger opportunity than the one that was put in place. And so, it's true. I self taught, but I also was very fortunate to have a lot of great mentors. I think the other thing that really shaped this was having a very empowering mother. And my mother was always about this notion of empathy. And we'll talk more about this in the pod I have. But one thing, she still moves. We never judge someone until you walk a mile in their shoes. And so, it made me very inquisitive, to learn more, to try and understand where someone was coming from. So, to cut a long story short, that involvement in the early days, the internet really gave me a purview into scale and led me to Cisco. It was actually where I helped build routers eventually and really saw this mega growth. We became the largest company in the world. And I attribute a lot of my thirst for knowledge into different business models and into growth and leadership from that formative time that I was there.

Adam: In total, we'll talk about your journey. We will talk about empathy. Empathy which is essential to great leadership. Unfortunately, something that isn't talked about enough. So excited to talk about it with you. But before we do, you mentioned the importance of mentorship. You mentioned Cisco being a formative time in your career. A key mentor of yours at your time at Cisco, and really, in the course of your career, was John Chambers, who was the CEO at the time and ultimately spent 20 years as CEO of Cisco. How did you cultivate a mentor-mentee relationship with John? And how can anyone find a great mentor and develop a successful mentor-mentee relationship?

Tony: Yeah, I think it's very, very important. I was very fortunate. I've been incredibly lucky to work with some of the largest scale leaders on the planet in technology, not only in chambers but later on when I was CEO of Sky, we were acquired by Microsoft. And I spent a lot of time with Steve Ballmer, sometimes Bill Gates, so not everyone's going to probably get that opportunity. But, I think there's three things I would say on that journey. And make no mistake, John is all about results. Part of making sure that you develop that mentee and mentor relationship because you take that input and you deliver against it. And that's very important to me as a leader that you have to not only say what you're gonna do, but you have to actually do it and take that learning. The second big thing about Cisco at the time, the culture and I think that John really enabled was, he enabled the ability for you to take good calculated risks. And it is important for folks out there as they think about growing their careers, you can't play it too safe. There's no set plan. I talk to a lot of people in my own company and over the companies that I've been a part of, and they'll often come and say, well, I want to be this at a certain time in their life. And, I think that it's got to be the other way around. It's not that I deserve this because of this ladder of succession. You have to trust the environment that you're in as you deliver those results, your work, and understand what really matters. From a cultural point of view, good things will happen. And John was really about that. I think the third thing is feeling comfortable to be open and authentic. In the challenges that you have, look at the baseline of empathy, which has really shaped how I think about leadership. It's really a simple principle, which is, ultimately, you got to listen, right? So as a mentee, you want to listen, but also the mentor wants to take time to understand your point of view. Once you can listen to the dilemma, or the challenge, or the opportunity you're facing, then you get to actually understand. So, it's listening first, then engaging. And John was superb at this. He's one of the best in the world. And we worked on hearing signals, seeing where markets were going, and listening to customers. He taught me that very deeply. Then understanding it and acting on it and then doing a continuous learning loop. And so, I think, that what, I guess, I'm getting at from the mentor-mentee relationship is one, it's got to be both ways. You're actually both learning from each other. To think of it not as a one-time act, where you get a good piece of advice, it's a continuous learning process. And be authentic and yourself. In those moments, there's no need to act in a certain way. It's really putting yourself out there. And, I think, those are the best ones when you can find them.

Adam: Great advice. And I love your emphasis on authenticity, which is essential to effective leadership. You and I are on the same page in terms of empathy being one of the core characteristics of effective leadership. And I want to ask you, what do you believe are the key characteristics of a great leader? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

Tony: Well, let me give it through the lens of the bad news that I'm trying to drive in the behaviors at Genesis. And for those who don't know that much about Genesis, we're a pretty large-scale company.  Just for six and a half thousand employees, were 60 different countries around the world offering and 100 companies serving great customer experience and experience orchestration software for some of the largest companies on the planet. Think about Fortune 100. We're very fortunate to have the top 10 Fortune 100 players. That 50 of the Fortune 100 have around us. So, I think about the lens, really, through three key attributes. And the number one, back to authenticity, is to embrace empathy. And there's some bullets within there. But what that really means is that everyone needs to feel that their voices are heard. That there's a time to be yourself and for you to really put your point-of-view across. The second big behavioral value that I aspire to, as far as our culture is, is that we fly information. And so, some people may say, well, they seem at odds with each other. But what it's really about is having the ability to feel that you're in a trusted space where your voice matters. But ultimately, once we get that out on the table, empathy is not a combined session where you get the lowest common denominator. If you take all the inputs, you understand that, then you act, and you act together, because you felt like you have been seen, you've been heard and you've been understood. And then again, as I mentioned, you put that in continuous learning. And that's the third pillar, which is, what I call, go big. I think as leaders, we've got to constantly challenge ourselves, our employees, and frankly, the strategy about industry to think much bigger than the little swim lane that we may be in right now that we hope leads to something else. So, that's what I've developed in my leadership framework, what that really talks to about culture. And ultimately, leaders have to not only talk the talk, but they have to walk the walk. And my leadership team has to do the same and then that has to cascade down. And they have to cascade down all the way into the company. And really, what that's about, I think, when you think about leadership is a shift in empowering your organization. It's really a shift that we're talking about today, being very business-centric, which is really important to become people and customer-centric. And that's the type of leadership that, I think, is going to be sustainable and a real business differentiator.

Adam: So to that end, I want to ask two follow-up questions. Number one, how can leaders become more empathetic? And number two, how can leaders cultivate more empathetic organizations, more truly customer-centric organizations?

Tony: First, have a mindset. And I'll go back to the phrase my mother told me, which is, “Never judge anyone until you walk a mile in their shoes”. And I really mean it. I'm sure many of you are growing companies. And they're growing very fast as you listen to this. And you'll hear it even from yourself from time to time. But from your employee base, like, I don't really know what's going on, I don't think they've done a good job. That's just the wrong mindset going in. And you need to check that mindset door and reframe it. And the way I like to think about it is, how can I help that person in the common goal of the company? So, that's the first thing. The second thing is, remember that every single one of us, and this is, I think, this movement from business to customer and people-centric, is a human being at the end of the day. And we all have challenges in our lives, which is just natural, it's part of the natural motion of society. And that needs to be forefront in the way that you show up and you think as a leader. And when you feel yourself moving into that other part of your brain, where's that feeling of not understanding why so and so isn't doing this, you have to reframe that and understand where they're coming from. And, I think, that's the first part. The second part, though, is I think you need a framework. To go back to the book, we talk a lot about this empathy and action framework. And as I mentioned, it's a very simple framework that you can use. We use it not only in the way that we think about the company, and how we operate, or how we build our software. And it comes back to the same thing. First, you've got to listen, you've got to then understand, and you've got to try and act and hopefully predict outcomes. And then, you've got to take that learning and build on top of that. And that's a continuous loop. I think the last thing maybe is that there's really a mind shift that you have to go through. A lot of the industrial complex that we've all grown up with and been trained in, has really been these business-centric ways of thinking about businesses, they're ultimately metrics, KPIs, some people OKRs. But when you step back, most of them are really business-centric types of metrics. They're really things that talk about either effectiveness or efficiency. And I want to put it to you today that the missing force multiplier is empathy, efficiency, and effectiveness, they are wonderful things. They really are important at the end of the day. You've got to have business models that you can pay the salaries of the employees. You've got to make sure that you can afford to turn the lights on. But ultimately, what we have seen is those who are empathetic and create great experiences for their employees, those employees become great brand ambassadors. And if you take the same approach with your customers, you get customers who tend to want to stay with you longer. They become lowly leaders because they feel that you understand them. You've seen them, you've heard them, you understand them. And, I think that that's the second-order effect, but an important one. That’s a big business differentiator because we know if people love the experience they have with you as a company, they're more likely to stay with you, they're more loyal, and more likely to have longer customer lifetime value. And you can then, obviously, continue to grow with them and sell them more services and more products, and they're less likely to turn from you.

Adam: Tony, you raise so many interesting points. And I'm sitting here nodding. First and foremost, great leaders are great listeners. Anyone listening to this podcast has heard me say it over and over and over. I love your focus on the human side of business. So often we think of business through the prism of numbers, spreadsheets, financials, and don't get me wrong, that's important. I have an MBA, I have an undergraduate degree in business, you need to understand numbers. But at the end of the day, business is about people. Business is about human beings. Without human beings on your team, without human beings to sell your product to, without human beings to buy products from, there's no such thing as business. So, understanding business through the prism of interpersonal relations is essential. Understanding that empathy is essential to leadership. And understanding that empathy is an essential quality in the people you bring on in your organization as you're looking to build a truly customer-centric company, as you're looking to foster trust with your customers, as you're looking to foster trust with your shareholders. If the people on your team don't have empathy for the people on your team, don't understand the feelings and needs of others, you're never going to get there. Something that I tell audiences that I speak to, is, if you don't have empathy, if you don't love people, if this isn't your thing, you can still be very successful. You can still do great in life. You're just not going to do great as a leader. Go do something that doesn't involve interpersonal interactions.

Tony: Yeah, I would extend that. And, I think, that it's so deeply rooted that it goes beyond just interpersonal interactions. If you think about the evolution of technical design today, we talk about design thinking all the time and other people using it in lots of different ways. But what it's really about at the root of that, it's usually about designing people-centric experiences that are based on understanding the needs and wants for that person you're designing for. And I would put it to you that you see this emergence now. A lot more folks are entering D schools, Stanford as a design school as an example. But, I think what we're going to eventually move to is we're going to actually have a score. We're going to have empathy scores. And again, I want to be really clear, it's not a warm and fuzzy thing where it's just about being better EQ than IQ. I really believe that if you put this at the center, and you start to measure this, I really think we're going to see a revolution in the way that people think about places they want to work and the businesses they want to interact with.

Adam: Tony, I want to ask you about your time before becoming CEO of Genesis. You were the CEO of Skype. And when you became the CEO of Skype, the company was in high growth mode. And you took over with the idea of taking the company public. Eight months into your tenure as CEO, Microsoft acquired Skype for $8.5 billion. And you're no longer the CEO of Skype, but you're the president of the Skype division in Microsoft. What were the best lessons you learned from that period from your time leading Skype and your time at Microsoft?

Tony: Let me, maybe, just step back a little bit. One of the things that I've been incredibly lucky to be part of is to see a number of waves of big market shifts, creation of the internet, really seeing the power of communication on a large scale. Seeing the power of video, one of the things I was very, very lucky to be part of was I was also on the board of YouTube and to see from a consumer lens, the power of expression. I mean, we take it all for granted now. The platform is so big, just all of the incredible talent out there was just looking for a platform and an outlet and technology-enabled that. And so, to now drill it down to the scope of my Microsoft experience. I think one really important thing and maybe this, the question I'm getting at is, so if you came into the one thing, and then it turned out to be another, is all of us need to really, as leaders, not only have a great vision, or focus on a culture, or focus on empathy, but you need to understand these market transitions. You need to know where you are playing in that space. And so, one of the calculus you must always make is, what's the competitive landscape? Where are you in the transition? And can you potentially further the vision with a partner, ultimately, at the end of the day, as shareholders, there's our market position? And so, we made a decision. We ended up at Microsoft. But, I think, what you're asking me is, what's that learning? So, I think the learning is, you've got to really understand all of your stakeholders. And the stakeholders really matter, your people really matter. Without going into all the details, that's something you really have to focus on is that everyone's put so much effort in and what's the outcome that they not only deserve, but can they also further the future of the vision that you're trying to set out? So, that was one of them. The second thing that I would put to you, though, is that back to empathy. I remember there were lots of things written at the time about why this is the end of the magic of the company, or we're moving into a different way of doing development? I gotta tell you, when I arrived at Microsoft, I mean, just the smartest, amazing people doing incredible innovation, fully aligned with what we were doing. And so, it's one of those things that you cannot judge until you're really sitting in it. Second piece, I'd say, don't sweat the small stuff. People get very hung up on nostalgia. And I'll give you a simple example, we had a very specific way of how we've had logos on all of the bathrooms and all those Skype offices and a lot of people like what they can't change. And, I think that whilst that's important to have a cultural identity, it misses the point of what we're trying to do there, which is to really transform an industry and really focus on the things that matter. The other thing for me personally, is that life is a journey. And no matter who you are, and what experiences you've had, if you can use that same framework I talked about, which is really also about continuous learning, there's so much to learn in every single role that you take on if you embrace it fully from the beginning. One thing I like to think about as a grand equalizer to answer what you just asked me is, if you approach the world that everyone is trying to do their best, all of us, everyone can always do better. It helped me really frame that shift as CEO to president to a different role. So then, making a choice to go to a company that was a consumer hardware company, I became the president of GoPro after that. And really, every one of those moments for me as a leader is, what can I learn? And seeing the good in everyone as you go into those situations. So, I don't know if I'm answering your question fully. But that is how I've tended to approach these different transitions. 

Adam: You definitely did. And you shared so many great nuggets there. Don't look back. The importance of having a forward-thinking mindset, the importance of lifelong learning, continually growing, continually evolving. No matter how much success you have, recognizing that you can always get better tomorrow. And the only way you're going to get better is by pushing your comfort zone by trying to get better by trying to expand your knowledge. To that end, you've mentioned your time in Microsoft, your time around Bill Gates, your time around Steve Ballmer. What were the best lessons you learned either directly from or just by virtue of being around those two leaders? 

Tony: Couple of things that come to mind and I touched on this in the book for those who hopefully get stimulated, I hope you do and pick up the book and take a read. I do talk about a few, I call them Tony's Leadership Corners. And by the way, I co-wrote this book with a wonderful co-author who also works at Genesis and incredible research, a forward thinker, Dr. Natalie Petouhoff. And when we were talking about this transformation of empathy into the customer and employee experience, and researching blind spots, it really triggered what's my learning, of course, impart some of those. And, I think, one of the things for me personally, and just talking as a leader, a lot of the course I've charted has been very much more of a Guttman data leader. I would say if you had to tip the scales, and I think my time in Microsoft, really shaped how important data is, and some people may be surprised if they listen to this, but I'll share with you something about Steve Ballmer that just impressed me beyond know. It's his ability to absorb data at such a large scale and really be in the details. I would see it, whether it was in an ops review, and something was not only incredible to see, but really made me double down, not just on being savvy on a set of numbers, but how to start to really use those as a better checkpoint, in terms of decisions that need to be made. I do think that sometimes as leaders, you can get trapped. You can get this classic term analysis paralysis. So ultimately, you've got to take the data and use it back to that framework, listen, understand, but ultimately, you've got to act. And both of those guys are really, really grounded in that and just incredibly experienced and seen everything. And that's a really important thing to try and glean and learn from.

Adam: You mentioned your time on the board of YouTube as a key experience in your career. You're currently on the boards of two Fortune 500 companies. What are your best tips for anyone interested in serving on boards, on how to get onto a board, and how to be an effective board member once serving?

Tony: Great, another mentor of mine who was gracious enough to write a reference in the book is John Donahoe. For those who don't know, John Donahoe story courier, including CEO of eBay, but ultimately, today is the CEO of Nike. And he told me one time that there were two kinds of game-changers in his leadership career. One of them was joining YPO as the Young Presidents Organization and another one was serving on a public board. And I know, there's often a lot of debate about the time and how effective you can be. But, I think, for me, and what I would say is, make sure that you're really interested not only in the company but in the segment in the area that the company is focused on. Don't approach any board, whether it's private or public, as kind of a check the box for a resume or for something that you think gives you some social capital. You've really got to be interested in it. And when I think about board members, you want folks who are really not only aligned with vision but really have a passion. So, that's first. Secondarily, you've got to feel comfortable enough to challenge yourself but also understand that you aren't the CEO of that company. And so, you're there, I think, to really challenge when things are not going well. But stimulating the ideas, I try to use the same framework, the same values, I guess, that I outlined for you earlier. And the way that I approach aboard, I think, take your time. For those who are considering this, don't jump at the first opportunity. Make sure that you've really have a passion for the work because it's real work. There's governance work, and especially in public boards. And again, embrace that as not a check the box thing, but embrace that as a learning. Things are changing all the time, the robot environments are changing all the time. Every company is different, its dynamic, and its ownership. And its shareholder base, where it is in a market transition, competitive set that's got how much technology and legacy it may have in the company. So, to me, a learning experience, but also know if you're not being effective, you have to rethink about how you can make that sale or say, look, this didn't necessarily be exactly what I thought it'd be and reflect on that. Everything's very situational, I would say, but I think that's an important way to approach it.

Adam: Tony what can anyone listening do to become more successful, personally and professionally?

Tony: Well, I'm probably a bit of a broken record, but I think it starts with a mindset shift. You have to take this conscious effort that I put empathy at the forefront of everything you do. You have to put actions into your commitment. I think that that is really, really, really important. I think there's technology that's out there to help actually promote empathy in your lives. And so, I embrace that technology, we certainly do a Genesis, and then don't get stuck in a rut. I hear people talk a lot about well, the politics or think about what you can do. I had a great coach earlier in my career. And I remember I got stuck in an interpersonal relationship with someone at work where we weren't seeing eye-to-eye about various important projects. It was the largest router development company and I got a little bit stuck in my own box about well, they're not really delivering what they said to me and I think this is worth repeating. It's back to empathy. Every day in the morning as you're taking the daily routine whether it's coffee or in the shower, wake up, get ready, focus and think about what's the one thing I can do to help the other person I'm having a challenge with? And you know what? After we delivered the product, we became close friends ever since. And so, a little bit I would say is continuous learning but always look to yourself and really drive those big three values I talked about. Embrace empathy, know that it's a team sport, even if you're leading, you're only as good as that team. So, how you find formation, and then keep going big, just to keep pushing yourself. And that's how we try to run Genesis and live those values every day.

Adam: I really like your focus on pushing yourself to see things through the other person's lens, no matter who that other person is. Fight as hard as you can to put yourself in the other person's shoes.

Tony: So simple when you say it. But if we go back to Genesis, which orchestrates great customer experiences. Every single person I've talked to whether it's a customer, an agent who works with their customer, or an end customer, they always say the same thing, which is, you only remember the experiences because of the way they made you feel. That is really at the center of this. And I think if you approach that as a leader, and you create a culture where employees and customers feel seen and understood, that is a fundamental business differentiator. And if you can steal that DNA, and live by that, I think you can continue to also grow as a leader.

Adam: Tony, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors. 

Tony: You're very welcome.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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