Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Red Robin CEO G.J. Hart

I recently interviewed Red Robin CEO G.J. Hart on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today is the CEO of one of America's leading burger chains. G.J. Hart is the CEO of Red Robin, where he leads a billion-dollar business that consists of more than 500 restaurants, and roughly 25,000 employees. G.J., thank you for joining us.

G.J.: Thanks for having me today.

Adam: You were born in the Netherlands. But you grew up in Virginia, in the country. And you did your undergrad at James Madison University, where you now have a school of hospitality named after you. But you came from humble means and you worked your way through college, hanging turkeys at a poultry farm. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What experiences and lessons were most instrumental to shaping your worldview into shaping the trajectory of your success?

G.J.: Sure. I have to go back a little bit. I'm Dutch, I'm an immigrant. My parents came to the US in an odd way. My mom was a prisoner of war survivor of the Japanese. My dad ran a Dutch underground in the Netherlands. When my mom was liberated, I went back to the Netherlands, and met my dad they dated and one of their dreams was to come to America for freedom and opportunity. They came when I was five years old. My parents came with a couple of suitcases and our dog and started a life in America. My mom had to teach me how to speak English because I went right into school. My dad was a school teacher, ended up being in law enforcement for 25 years of his career, and retired from that. My mom had to go to work. She hadn't worked in the Netherlands and went to work to be a key punch operator back in the day. Everybody's got a story, mine is a bit humble in the sense that my parents worked for everything they got, and fortunately, they gave me the opportunity so I was able to help them as my life went on. We were in New Jersey when we first immigrated, went to Virginia a few years later for my dad's teaching job in the Shenandoah Valley. I originally started in the restaurant business, I started as a busboy, short order cook, and dishwasher at Howard Johnson's, which was right there in Harrisonburg, Virginia. It's not there anymore. So I started there and liked that business as odd as that might sound. Then I ended up in the poultry business because I had to work. And a friend of mine, whose dad worked for this poultry company allowed me to go to work there as a management trainee, which back in those days, wasn't quite like management trainees. I was an additional set of hands that could learn on the job and make a difference. I ended up doing that for all my time during college, because it took me particularly long, many years compared to the four years normally. The learning would be that number one, never give up and always give it your best shot. Number two, have a positive attitude about life, that when the opportunity comes, you need to be ready to take it. I think that's one of the lessons. I try to tell people, young people in particular that when you dial 911, you expect someone to answer the phone, and help you no matter what they don't know you. They don't know what you are, but they're going to send help or make sure you get help. And I tried to tell young people that that's the condition. So if your phone rings, pick it up and make sure you're ready. Because you never know on the other end of that line, you could be helpful, or you get an opportunity, or whatever it might be. Those are some of the key learnings. It's been a great ride. I ended up from there going back into the restaurant business. I've been in it for many years. At this point, I love it. And it's been good for me.

Adam: Great journey and great advice. Never give up. Seize the opportunities that are before you. Make sure you're ready. You never know what the opportunity is going to be. You never know when the opportunity is going to come. But you've got to be ready. If you're ready, if you're prepared, when luck finds you, that's when it's going to happen.

G.J.: That's the truth. I think today, it's so easy to say, “I'll call that person back”, or not answer at all, or not be there for whoever it might be. I do think that that's a valuable piece of how you get ahead. You said luck happens when you least expect it.

Adam: And something you just shared, which I think is equally important. The power of being there, being present, showing up. What did Woody Allen say? 90% of success is showing up.

G.J.: Yeah, I love that. But I always say that 85% of a person's success in life is based on their attitude. When I'm interviewing people, I look for their attitude. In many cases, depending on what the particular role is, and what those skills have to be, I typically look for attitude. You can always teach the skill, it's the attitude in the first place. I think you could take story after story of people who are successful as a result of having that ‘can do’ attitude, willing to pay the price, the right attitude.

Adam: I love that. Can you dive a little bit more deeply into that? When you're looking for people to hire when you're looking for people to surround yourself with whether they're employees, advisors, w friends, you're looking for people with the right attitude. How do you assess whether they have a winning attitude?

G.J.: Well, first of all, it's how they carry themselves. I just had a conversation with a young lady who was interviewing to get into nursing school last week. She is the daughter of one of our senior team leaders. He had asked me to try to help her in terms of the interview process. I gave her some pieces, at least advice from my perspective. It's making sure you do your homework to be prepared as to who is interviewing you and make sure you know about them, and what's important to them and do that research. So while that's not necessarily about attitude, it's caring enough about what it is you're trying to do, that you do your homework in the first place. The second is to show up the way you want to be seen. So make sure you're well put together, groomed properly, etc. And then the other thing I said to her is you need to lean in, as you care about what someone's saying or what they're asking, and not just sit back and cross your arms or cross your legs, lean into that situation so that you can be seen and be seen as, “Hey, I'm engaged into this.” So those are some of the things that I look for. I look for people who answer questions with a positive spin versus taking a negative approach. I look for people who believe in tenacity and the willingness to see things through. I keep saying this, willingness to pay the price. Meaning that you're willing to work that extra effort, and you can ask interview questions to be able to get at those things. Those are just some of the things I look for, besides the smiling and making sure it's the handshake and that's a tight grip, and looking at you in the eye, all those things are super important. When you piece it all together, you can determine whether or not you have someone who is going to make a difference or someone who's going to just ride along and see what happens.

Adam: Are there any particular interview questions that you like that you'd highly recommend to anyone listening to this conversation, incorporating, regardless of who they're interviewing?

G.J.: I would say it's generally about them. What drives them? What do they like to do when they're having fun when they're not working? What are the things that are important to them to get ahead? Where do they see themselves in five years? Those questions start to get at what is in that person's heart and soul. And that's really what I try to do. Because at the end of the day, you can ask questions about whatever the skill set is, or the role. But you need to understand where that person is coming from and from an experience perspective and be respectful. From wherever those experiences are, that is what shapes you into your future. Those are the types of areas that I like to go into versus just going in at only business questions, taking a read through a resume, where they've been, where they’ve worked. It's getting underneath some of those things and getting into a person's mind and how they feel from what drives them.

Adam: And you hit on some of the most important things that every single person needs to be able to bring to the table. Being prepared, carrying yourself the right way, being engaged, and caring about what other people have to say. You can't fake that. You can try to fake it, but you can't fake compassion or fake empathy.

G.J.: That's exactly right.

Adam: We've talked a lot about the soft skills that are essential to success. What were the hard skills that you developed along the way that helped you get to where you are? What are the key skills that you utilize today in leading a major restaurant business?

G.J.: I think at the end of the day, it's the ability to assess a situation and know what are the right questions to ask. It's important to have just the emotional intelligence to understand the people involved because everything starts and ends with people. It's about making sure that you listen particularly well. I think that's a skill that is hard to describe to a lot of people. Everybody says, “Oh, I listen just fine.” Well, do you really? I think that's an important one. And to be able to assess, if it's an organization, where they are culturally? Because at the end of the day, in my opinion, it's the way you achieve maximum success, or to be able to see things through is to have every single team member, every single person on that team, knowing where it is you're trying to go there, make sure that they understand how they fit into the pieces of the puzzle to get there, and that their voice matters. To do that, you have to listen, and you have to be able to know the questions to ask and that's experienced within the sector. Then it's making sure from an emotional accent that you really can assess the situation, and then formulate a strategy. Then it's all-inclusive, to be able to do that, that you wrap all those things together to be able to dive into whatever it is you're trying to achieve.

Adam: How can one develop emotional intelligence? And how can one become a better listener?

G.J.: Well, being a better listener, I have two ears and one mouth. But at the end of the day, I think it's just being focused. That's what I said earlier. Leaning in, really caring about the person on the other end that you're talking to, or the people if it's a group, and listening and being genuine about. People know if you're genuine and if you're coming from your heart, doesn't mean you're always going to be right. But they can sense that. It's an innate ability of human beings. In terms of emotional intelligence, I think it's just watching people learning, listening, and watching where people come from. Again, if you're prepared, and you do your homework, then it will help you a lot to understand how to behave emotionally, with whoever it is that you're speaking to. That's the best way I would describe it. For me, early on in my career, one of the things that was helpful to me I took over a leadership role in the poultry business at a very early age. Every single person that worked for me was older. I had to learn quickly, how to earn respect. And that's knowing, and listening. How can I lead these people to engage when I don't have the experience, and I don't know necessarily, that they might have the skill? That helped me start to formulate how can I get to these people so that they will listen and get behind what it is we're trying to do. That has helped me to answer some of those things in my mind.

Adam: Something else you mentioned, is the importance of culture. How can leaders build winning organizational cultures?

G.J.: Number one, I think cultures are by design, not by default. Cultures are a product of every team member contributing. I say this all the time, culture is owned by who? It's owned by everybody. Culture is the ability to let people have a voice. It's knowing that they understand where they sit within the organization, and why it matters and making sure they're aligned on the overall purpose, mission, vision, and values. And that they have a say in developing those things that are important. Because at the end of the day, culture, and whatever values are associated with that culture, have to be lived by every person. Because if it's just a bunch of words on a piece of paper, it doesn't work. Culture is by design, not by default, and it takes time. When you have something special like in the case of what I'm doing now, you have very, very long-tenured people, we have new people, and we have people that have worked with me in the past all come together from a leadership perspective. It's getting people aligned around us. So over time, I think you've become better at developing the opportunity for cultures to work by the things that we've just been talking about. Being ready, listening, and making sure people understand where they sit and having a voice.

Adam: And you alluded to what you're doing now, you have a long history. Coming into different restaurant brands and growing them, scaling them, building them up, how have you done that? And how can leaders grow and scale their businesses?

G.J.: Thanks for saying that. I'm still working on it. Every day, I'm learning something. But again, it's all the things I just said. I think people have to be aligned for the overall purpose, mission, vision, and values of an organization. That's where you start. It starts and ends with people. You have to be committed to that. That's the way. When you come into an organization, you have to earn respect and that takes time. The way you earn respect is by making sure people have that voice, that they realize that they matter that you're super genuine about that, and that you lead from your heart. I always say that leading from your heart is important. Doesn't mean you don't hold people accountable, doesn't mean you don't have high expectations. It's about whether you are genuine, and do you care. When you do that, people start to believe, and they feel like whatever the mission vision values are, that they're aligned with that, then A) they believe, and they get it done. B) they stay much longer together. C) they continue to be a part of the solution, not part of a problem. D) if there are issues, they bring the solutions to it. Those things start to come together. In my career, that's what I try to do, and try to build consensus around what it is we're trying to achieve. Everybody's different as a human being and they need respect for who they are and what they stand for. And knowing how to maximize performance, how do you have high-performing teams? It's about trying to bring all those different people together and using each of their strengths to the benefit of that organization. I tried to do that. Over my career, I've had some decent success. And I continue to do that now with what I'm doing.

Adam: What have been the most significant failures, challenges, and obstacles you faced in the course of your career? How have you been able to overcome them? What have you learned from them and what advice do you have for listeners on how to overcome the failures, challenges, and obstacles they face in their lives and their careers?

G.J.: I would tell you that probably one of my biggest failures was a business where I was trying to assemble three different businesses into one and doing it in a way that we had to scale very quickly and move facilities. I won't go into all that. But essentially, what I learned quickly was, that we had the right idea, we had the right solution, we just didn't take the time to develop exactly what I've been talking about with you. The teams to understand the overall mission, vision, values, and purpose of the organization. While it all would have worked correctly, it took a lot more money, a lot more time, and a lot of bumps in the road as a result of that. Ultimately, I wouldn't say it was a total failure. But it was a failure as it wasn't my ability to see it through. I decided to ultimately separate from the business. It was probably best at the time because it had to do with the relationships with banks, etc. They needed somebody's hide and it was mine. And I put myself out there to do that. And the learning was that everything I've been just talking about is really important. I was young and again, it was the right answer, the right solution, just not the right team put in place ready to go and make it happen. And that was my fault. For me, how do you overcome these things? To be able to look yourself in the mirror and say, “What do I learn from this? What are the strengths that I have? How do I build upon it? What are the weaknesses that I need to work on?” And be genuine about that. The other piece of it is to believe in yourself so that you can have self-doubt. And as you're growing in your career, having self-doubt is a reality. You're not always going to make the right decisions. You need to be willing to have confidence in yourself that you can get things done and have the right attitude to move forward. For me, I can remember I had this little guy on my shoulder saying, “You can't.” and I'm like, “I can.” You have to be able to overcome that to know who you are to be better at it. The learning for me and that experience was okay, how do I best make the most out of this? And that's what I did. I learned here's what you need to do with teams and people and all the things that we've been talking about to be able to be better at it. Ever since then, we've done okay.

Adam: G.J., in my interviews with hundreds of the most successful leaders across backgrounds, business leaders, military leaders, political leaders, and leaders in sports entertainment, I put together a list of the key characteristics of the most successful leaders. And among those characteristics are what you just described. Self-awareness, self-confidence, humility. What you took away from that experience, is essential to leading effectively, what do you believe are the key characteristics of a great leader? And what can anyone do to become a better leader?

G.J.: First and foremost is to challenge yourself to be the very best you can be, which means that you're constantly learning and no matter what age you are, that you continually want to get better. If you put yourself on a pedestal, or someone else put you on a pedestal, and you're at the top of that pedestal, what's the only way you can go? It’s down unless you're willing to do the things required to stay on top. So, being the best you can be is first and foremost. The second one I've already talked to you about a little bit is to lead with your heart, be genuine, lead with your heart. The third thing is I think it's really important that you have huge aspirations and dream big. The fourth is to trust the people that you lead. In our business, I say that largely because so many people in the restaurant business come up within the restaurant business. They have to be a first-time leader at some point in their career to be able to be developed to be a manager in our business. First-time leaders need to understand. They understand how to do whatever the skill is that's required, they don't necessarily know how to lead or teach. It's being able to trust the people that you lead. The next piece of it is, I believe it's really important to do the right thing. That's easy to say, it's really hard to do. As a leader, sometimes you need to stand up for someone, and they may have done something that breaks a rule or whatever it might be. As long as they didn't hurt somebody else along the way, you need to have the ability to say what's the right thing to do. I think that's important. The last one is that no matter where you are in the scope of your career, serve the people that you lead. Be of service to those people in a very genuine way. If you remember that, and that that's humility, but it's really important. And many people today in leadership roles have forgotten that. All of that's wrapped around having the courage to see things through and make those tough calls. There's a reason it's lonely at the top, and it's narrow up the top. Because you have to have the courage to lead an organization and create the ability for it to see its way through good times, bad times, and challenging times. That's not always easy.

Adam: A lot of great stuff I want to dive into. First and foremost, you need to have the desire to get better. Ties into humility, not thinking you know everything, and recognizing that no matter how much success you've had, you need to get better. There's only one way to go. And that's up. That's something that I've observed as well from the most successful leaders. Lead with your heart, dream big. Trust the people around you. You can't do it by yourself. No person is going to be able to do everything on the contrary. Leadership is all about the people around you. It's not about you. Do the right thing. Morality, serve the people who you lead. Courage, you said that it's lonely at the top, which is something that we hear a lot. How as a leader, do you counter that? How do you avoid that trap? How do you ensure that you are not operating in a bubble?

G.J.: I think it's very important that you stay in touch with the people that you lead, to make sure they understand where they sit and make sure that you understand and truly assess whatever the decisions are that need to be made or wherever you're trying to go. It's really important to have all people's perspectives. That ultimately gives you all the information and data to be able to make a decision. Number two, it goes back to the self-confidence thing that we were talking about. You have to have the confidence that you're willing to make that decision and you're confident in those decisions. And that's if you have the information to be able to make the decision. Also, you have done your part to be able to create a culture where people have expressed their opinions, they understand how they fit into the overall wheel of what it is you're trying to achieve. That trust is earned over time and you'll know that. You build confidence by gaining perspective from all the constituents that are in the organization to be able to make that decision. Now, you're not always going to make everybody happy. But you're going to make a decision based on all that information and data, what's the right thing to do. And again, having that self-confidence that if you're going to fall, being willing to pay the consequences for that. Realize that there are always consequences when you're at the top of an organization, if you're not successful, if things go awry, or whatever it might be. That's the hard and the lonely part. You have to always separate yourself from the people that you lead. It's great to be one of the people, I love to be one of the people. But at the same time, you know that slide of demarcation, to be effective as a leader and be respected as a leader and have people follow those decisions that you're making.

Adam: A key theme as you're sharing both how you counter loneliness to the top and as you were describing, in your view, the key characteristics of effective leaders, trust, how can leaders generate and earn trust?

G.J.: I think the way to generate trust is by being genuine, being a person that people can count on, and know that they can count on. This genuineness is really important. Willingness to spend that time with the people that you lead individually, to get to know them, and get to understand what drives them, get to know where their heads are at, and where they particularly sit whatever the challenges in their life are so that you can help set them up for success. I think at the end of the day, it's about listening and caring. And those are the things that for me, if I can convince people that here's where we're going, here's how we're going to get there, and that I care about you. And that I'm going to do all my part to make sure that you're successful and live out your dreams. I think over time, people realize that if you're in a very genuine way, they start to trust you. That's also true for me. If I'm following someone, those things happen as a result of someone treating me that way. I think that's where I get a lot of this from. I follow people along the way, that's a super important element is getting to know people that you lead, and making sure that they understand you and understand that you're real.

Adam: No substitute for that. No substitute for building real, genuine relationships. No substitute for authenticity. Can't fake it. What are your best tips for leaders and entrepreneurs in the restaurant business?

G.J.: For entrepreneurs in the restaurant business, having the tenacity to stick with it. Saying something like 93% of all the restaurant startups fail. Make sure that you are committed to what it is you're trying to achieve and you're setting yourself up for success by having all the pieces of the puzzle, required things like capital and planning, and all those things required to be able to start a business. Tips, start and end with people creating a belief system that ultimately defines your culture, and that they're going to go to battle, they're going to see it through because they believe. It's creating an environment, it's making sure people know you care that you listen, that you're going to see them through that you're not going to give up, and that you'll be there for them 24/7. And as I sit here and just think about it, those are important tips. Then make sure you believe in yourself enough to make things happen, continually stay humble, and learn every day of your life.

Adam: What are your best tips on the topic of franchising?

G.J.: At the end of the day, as a company, if you have franchisees, it’s important to understand that the franchisees are putting up real money. It's their money, we're going to work. So you're there to serve them. They're investing in whatever that concept is. And they believe in you coming in because it's their hard-earned money. It's making sure that they are a part of the equation, that you're constantly listening to treating them with respect, and that you set expectations with them both ways. It's not just a one-way street. It's a real partnership. You have to prove that it's a real partnership. Because at the end of the day, they've invested in the concept with their money, and they're the ones at risk. So you need to make sure that they feel that they're valued along the way. And

Adam: Right at the heart of every restaurant, at the heart of every business is your customer. You don't have a customer; you don't have a business. You've built and led so many different highly customer-centric businesses throughout your career. What are your best tips for anyone listening on how to build and lead truly customer-centric companies?

G.J.: In the restaurant business, I tell people, they're not customers, they're guests. The biggest tip I would say is to treat people as if they're coming into your own home. What would you do if you were inviting someone important to dinner? I take them through this very elementary way. It's like, how would you think about planning for it? What would your yard look like? How would you be dressed? What's the atmosphere? All those things and you take them through. At the end of the day, you treat people as if they're guests in your own home. When you do that, you're serving them, you're doing all those things in the hospitality business that will drive success for you. In guests-centered businesses which we're in, you have to like people. You have to want to be around people, you have to be someone who wants to give people an experience that they want to come back for. Everything that you should do, should be led with that mind. As simple as that.

Adam: I love it. On that list I alluded to, one of the key characteristics of the most successful leaders, right on that list, love of people. If you don't love people, there are plenty of things in life you can be successful in. You could be a successful accountant, you could be a successful programmer, and you could probably spend all day coming up with lots of professions that you could do quite well at without loving people. But you're not going to be a successful leader. Whether you're leading in the restaurant business, whether you're leading in any other hospitality-oriented business, or whether you're leading in any business period, if you want to be a successful leader, you have to fundamentally love people, as you said, G.J., it all comes down to people. What can anyone listening to this conversation do to become more successful personally and professionally?

G.J.: You just said it really well. It's knowing that it starts and ends with people. You drive financial results by doing the simple things and detail things really well for caring for people. Simple as that.

Adam: G.J., thank you for all the great advice, and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

G.J.: Great to be with you today. Thanks for having me.


Adam Mendler is an entrepreneur, writer, speaker, educator, and nationally-recognized authority on leadership. Adam is the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal-winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities, and non-profit organizations. Adam has written extensively on leadership and related topics, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. Adam teaches graduate-level courses on leadership at UCLA and is an advisor to numerous companies and leaders. A Los Angeles native, Adam is a lifelong Angels fan and an avid backgammon player.

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