Thirty Minute Mentors Podcast Transcript: Ambassador Christopher Hill

I recently interviewed Ambassador Christopher Hill on my podcast, Thirty Minute Mentors. Here is a transcript of our interview:

Adam: Our guest today served as the US ambassador to four different countries. Ambassador Christopher Hill spent more than three decades serving at the highest levels of international diplomacy, and is the former US ambassador to Iraq, South Korea, Poland, and Macedonia. Ambassador Hill, thank you for joining us.

Ambassador Hill: Thank you very much. Real pleasure.

Adam: You were born in Paris to an American diplomat, you grew up in Rhode Island playing lacrosse, and you joined the Peace Corps right after graduating from college. Can you take listeners back to your early days? What experiences and lessons were most formative to your worldview? And what drew you to pursue a career in diplomacy?

Ambassador Hill: Well, actually, the reason I was born in Paris was because my father was a diplomat. So early in my life, he and my mother took me and my four siblings off to some real adventures, and one of them was, of all places, Belgrade, Yugoslavia back in January 1961. And I recall, there was a kind of a major development in Africa, of all places, a guy named Mamba had been killed with many people suspecting our CIA had done it. So I remember coming home that day, and our house had been attacked by students, at the time, who had thrown rocks through our windows. And I remember getting off the little VW microbus school bus. And I was, I was just some eight years old at the time, I remember looking around saying, wow, this doesn't look normal. And I went up to the front door and banged on the front door because it was locked. And my mother came to the door and said, come inside, Chris, you won't be playing outdoors today. And I guess what I remember about the whole incident was the calm and collected approach that my parents took to what, today, would be kind of headline stuff- that a US diplomat's home had been attacked by, you know, rioters. So I remember how my parents handled it very coolly. And I thought that was kind of a good lesson for the future that whatever situation you're in, it's probably not as bad as you think. It's definitely not as good as anyone might think. But you should, you know, be calm and think through what's the next step to getting out of it.

Adam: We're gonna spend a lot more time over the course of this conversation talking about lessons you've learned over the course of your career. And I want to start with what you learned over the two decades you spent at the State Department before rising to become an ambassador. You joined the State Department in 1977 and it wasn't until almost 20 years later that you were named to your first ambassadorship. What did you learn during that stretch rising within the State Department? And what lessons do you have for listeners on how they can rise within whatever organizations they're working for and how they can rise within their own careers?

Ambassador Hill: Well, thanks for asking that because you're actually right. I entered in October 1977. And, yeah, you spend a long time before you actually get to the top of the hill there. So you're often, you know, in the Foreign Service, you're going out greeting people at airports, bringing their luggage in, then you're writing, you're spending a decade writing telegrams, and not everyone is reading carefully. And then finally, you're doing something, you know, from the top and very important, but it doesn't mean those intervening, some 17 years, were somehow not important. You're learning a lot. And one of the things you learn, especially in the State Department, it's an awful lot of on the job training. You're kind of looking at people in my case, I had a fabulous ambassador on my first tour and I must say, later on, when I became an ambassador, I realized, you know, junior officers are really looking at you because they want to get a sense of how they should eventually behave. And that was certainly the case for me. Looking at this, just iconic figure Ambassador Lawrence Eagleburger and I sort of learned how, you know, he approached everything calm and collected. He also had a sense of theater. So if they were angry or something, usually it was part of his performance art. And I was just very impressed with the way he kind of developed relationships, people invariably or inevitably began to like him. And once people like you, then you can kind of say what you want to say. And they'll listen because they really respect you. And so, watching Eagleburger early on and then later on in my career, I had the opportunity to work for another iconic American diplomatic figure, a guy named Richard Holbrooke, who also was just always kind of ahead of the game, looking forward, figuring out what we're going to do next. You know, there's an old adage that lawyers look back to see what happened, diplomats try to look forward to see what kind of- whether it's political arrangements you're trying to help a country come up with, so that people can live together, or whether it's simply an effort to stop a conflict and figure out what can be done to stop that conflict. So I think, most importantly, it is to identify people not in maybe a formal mentorship, but rather just people whose activities, whose approaches you want to emulate. You can't because you don't have the range of experience at that point. But you certainly can watch them carefully. And for me, it was developing these kinds of role models, which would help me later on. And I'd like to say one other point, you know, people often ask diplomats, well, what ambassadorship was most important. I would encourage people to understand that it's kind of a full marathon. And it's not just when you become an ambassador, that you do important things. I mean, I was with Holbrook, you know, trying to get problems addressed in the Balkans and trying to get people to sit down and look at the same sheet of paper and see whether they could rank arrange things, very, very important moments for me, and I was, at that point, still not an ambassador.

Adam: Ambassador Hill, you made several really important points for listeners and I want to hone in on a couple of them. You spoke about mentorship, which is a key theme of this show. And something that you brought out is the importance of not just having a mentor, but having people who you could look to who you can emulate. And one of the things that I try to bring to listeners through this show, is bringing on people like you who have accomplished incredible things, who listeners might not have as a direct mentor, but who they can learn from indirectly. And I think that no matter where you are in your career, whether you have a direct, traditional mentor or not, you should go out and seek what I call mini mentors. And those are people who you can speak to once or once a year, or once a quarter, grab coffee with them, grab lunch with them, jump on a phone call with them and pick their brain. And I can tell you in my career, the amount of value that I've gained from having mini mentors has been measurable. With that said, I want to ask you about a mentor who you mentioned, Richard Holbrooke. Can you talk more about that relationship and how that impacted your career and your development as a leader?

Ambassador Hill: Well, he was, I think, a very critical figure in American foreign policy in the late 20th century, a person who had a real passion about our country and about our country's success, and an understanding of the fact that our country really counts. People really listen to American diplomats, because we represent a country that absolutely counts all over the world. And so Holbrook, I mean, I would not have wanted to walk into his office and said, Ambassador Holbrook, would you mind becoming my mentor? I think he probably would have flown me out of his office, he just didn't kind of think in those terms. But for me, he was very much of a mentor, and very much of, you know, a role model whose behavior I watched very carefully, sometimes for things that I didn't want to do in my later incarnations in the Foreign Service. I mean, you got to be very careful about creating enemies, you got to be very careful about situations where you don't want to take on everything. Sometimes you take on small things. And I'd say to them, no, leave that alone. Forget about it, you know, let the person have his or her way on that. Let's look at the bigger picture. But overall, what I really admired about him was this capacity to focus on things to really understand what was important to push out all the other unimportant things and really go after what had to be done and for me that that element of focus, and then, you know, at times I was dealing with the North Koreans and I was going to have a meeting with the North Koreans but the instructions were that the Chinese were supposed to be three so that we’d not just be meeting bilaterally with the North Koreans but rather stress a kind of multilateral approach with the North Koreans. And I remember the problem was the Chinese weren't there. And so the question for me was whether to call an audible and say, look, the situation is ripe, I don't have the requisite for, you know, the precise number of people that they wanted me to have in order to have this meeting. And then I thought to myself, you know, what would Dick Holbrooke have done? What would Larry Eagleburger have done? And I decided to go through the through the meeting so you know, these are people who, even though they're not standing next to you and suggesting stuff, you remember very clearly in your mind how they handled things, and that how they handled things becomes an inspiration in your mind as to how to handle a situation. And I never had the opportunity to ask Eagleburger or Holbrook later on, would you have done what I did? But I suspect they would have.

Adam: I love that. And that's such important advice and something that I've tried sharing with audiences that I speak to is something that a great mentor does is not necessarily tell the person that he or she is mentoring, do this, do that. Rather, what they'll do is they'll set you up with the tools, they'll position you in a way that you are empowered to make the right decision, you are empowered to make the right move. And in your case, you had the training, you had the tools to make the right decision because of your time around great mentors. And you not only worked with legendary ambassadors, but you worked directly for and with numerous US presidents, you spent time with countless heads of state from all over the world. Who do you consider the best leaders that you've been around? And what do you learn from them?

Ambassador Hill: Well, you know, in the Foreign Service, you'll learn not to interfere in the internal affairs of any country, including your own. So I'm not going to name names in terms of American presidents. But generally speaking, I like to see American leadership where they would ask you to do something, whether it's go out and negotiate with the North Koreans or negotiate in the Balkans or something. And they essentially give you the tools to succeed. And it's not like they're trying to strap a sort of helmet cam on you so they can see exactly what you're seeing and give you advice on whether to turn left or right. They're simply telling you that, look, you're the person, we want to do this job, and go do it and do it to the best of your ability. And I found that kind of advice. And I got that early on when I was working in the Clinton administration. I also certainly got that when I was working with the George W. Bush administration because he was very interested in getting some process going with the North Koreans. So I found that you know, people who delegate well, who understand that, when you're asking someone to do something, don't think that you can understand every turn in the road that that person is going to have to face as that person tries to, you know, execute the mission, as the military would say. So trust in your people. And I think the best mentors, if you will, are people who do have this notion of empowering their own staff, and you know, making sure that their own people feel confident enough to make decisions. If you're in a situation where the person who's told you to do something is saying, well, if you know, any complications come up, call me back immediately, like, you know, at some point, that kind of micromanaging isn't really going to have you do your best. And so for me, having senior leaders who understood that the sort of problem from 30,000 feet and what the solution is getting a person like you involved in it, those are the mentors I really appreciate and who, by the way, are going to back you up even when things may not have turned out where the way you all wanted them to

Adam: What do you learn from the leaders of other countries that you spent time with, whether they were effective leaders, or in many cases, highly ineffective leaders, leaders who you had to deal with because they were leading poorly - what did you learn?

Ambassador Hill: Well, you know, like a lot of fields of endeavor, you will do better if you don't talk more than 50% of the time. And if you spend more time listening, and understand where they're coming from, because they may be assessing the situation quite differently from the way you feel the situation should be assessed. And then as you're listening carefully, and you know, listening skills are critical in this line of work, you'll realize that there's something really important to them that you didn't think was so important. So you got to file that away, because at some point, you may want to say oh, and by the way, I can make that happen, and maybe get some more credit for it from the from the person get some more concessions, if you will, because you've understood that that was important to the person, but you hadn't understood that before. So you're constantly sort of establishing some kind of, you know, price arbitrage where, wait a minute, this is important to him, but I know, it's not that important to the people who gave me my instructions. So I'm going to be able to get more from him in order to get this done, because it's not a big deal for us. So you've got to do that, you've really got to listen very carefully. The second thing is, and you know, people always make the point. And it's a valid point that this is not a popularity contest, you're not trying to go out there and make everyone your best friend. But I'm telling you, if you do it in a way that you're sort of user friendly, if you will, you know, at some point, the person wants to do stuff, because the person realizes that you represent something that they want to be associated with. One time I was in a small country in the Balkans called Macedonia, and I was trying to get the Prime Minister there to do something he clearly didn't want to do because it involved for him a lot of domestic, political, you know, blowback, if he did it, but ultimately he said, you know, I'm going to do this, because it's going to cause me some problems in the parliament. But I'm going to do it because I value the relationship with the United States. And so you're trying to kind of set up those parameters, as, you know, what can we do together? What is our relationship? How can we make that relationship important? And ultimately, when the person buys into that, the person, the leader in this case, in Macedonia understands that it's more important to move this relationship forward, then perhaps the pain and pain in the neck that he's going to have explaining to Parliament of why he did something that, you know, many people didn't want him to do. So, again, this all starts with keeping your mouth closed and your ears open for for more than 50% of the time,

Adam: Which is great advice for anyone interested in becoming a better leader, and is also great advice. On the topic of negotiating, which I want to ask you about- you have a very unique perspective on this topic. You've served as ambassador to four different countries. And I wanted to ask you, what your philosophy is, when it comes to negotiating deals? And what are your best tips on the topics of negotiating and deal-making?

Ambassador Hill: Well, first of all, when you get your instructions from whoever's giving you your instructions, make sure you kind of read them carefully and don't have a situation where they are greatly inflated as to how much success you're going to have because when you're negotiating, especially in these foreign situations, you know whether the local leader may have all kinds of issues that you're not even aware of, in terms of making concessions to you. You have to make sure people back home understand that you're not negotiating with air, you're negotiating with someone who's often opposed to every idea that you have. So I found it useful to try to set the expectations low. Even if you have high expectations in your mind, make sure people understand, this isn't, you know, a bowl of cherries. And I found that the best negotiations were when people suddenly realize, oh my goodness, you were able to get that out of them. And so it empowers you. They get a sense that, you know, you're the right person to do this, and then they give you more leeway. So I think that's one point. Holbrooke used to say to me, the only thing worse than not having guidance is having guidance, because sometimes they're telling you what to do, when in fact, the situation has to be assessed clearly in real time on the ground. By the way, I think the military does a very good job of this where local commanders don't get second guessed, too often. Unfortunately, that's not the case all the time, in the civilian sector. So I think, understanding, trying to set realistic goals, and then as you go forward, you have to be thinking, even though someone is asking for something, and you might personally think it's a good thing to give the person because you don't think the person has any choice. And that you have to, you know, give that concession, you have to be really clear in your mind what the home office or in this case for me, Washington, is willing to accept because you you cannot be in a situation where you agree to something and then run it up the flagpole back with a home office, and they say, now we're not going to go with that. And then you're put in the position of having to say, look, I tried, but I couldn't get it done. So be very careful about agreeing to something that, even though it makes perfect sense, you don't want to go beyond your instructions and that. So a lot of things like that. But basically what you're trying to do is make sure the home office or Washington has confidence in what you're doing, and will support you. And that goes back to the earlier point where you have leadership back in Washington that says go forth, get the best you can, and I'll back you up. But that's really what you're looking for.

Adam: What tips do you have on negotiations and deal-making for a broader audience, whether you're negotiating the deal in business, or whether you're negotiating a deal on a house or an apartment?

Ambassador Hill: I think you need to have a clear understanding of what your objective is. once you know what your objective is, the shortest point, the shortest run to that objective may not be a straight line. So you might be willing to do some things in the meantime that the other person wants, provided that you have this clear sort of Northstar of where you need to end up. And so I think many Americans have a concept that we can get to something very quickly, we can solve it all. In fact, when you're asking a country to do something they don't want to do, they're not going to make a leap of faith with you, they're going to keep the steps pretty small. And so you have to make sure that in taking small steps, those steps are not leading you to a different eventual outcome, you need to make very clear that you understand that, and that they need to understand that the outcome is agreed. You both agree on that. In the meantime, you need to take some steps that may look like they're not heading there, but will eventually do so. So be very clear about how you can get to your ultimate objective. And don't expect it to happen in one fell swoop, which I think, too often, you know, we're kind of- Americans are kind of, you know, people who like to see a solution, you know, let's get there. You know, we know where we're going, well, why don't we stop all this waste of time and get right to where we're going? Except that if you've been listening carefully, you know that there are a lot of internal problems in other countries. And by the way, I mean even brutal dictatorships have politics. So don't think that it's going to be easy for those, let's say you're dealing with a dictator, and that dictator is going to be able to do it with a wave of his hand, he, that dictator, may in fact, have a lot of domestic politics. And you need to understand that. You need to understand clearly what that person may be facing in his or her own country. And so you don't want to be kind of assuming it's going to be easy. On the other hand, you don't want to take a lot of razzmatazz from the person who says, oh, we can't do that when you've assessed it correctly.

Adam: Some key takeaways for listeners, based on the themes, you've drawn out Ambassador Hill; don't make assumptions. Listen, and try to come to a consensus that works for both parties, and do so in a way in which you're honoring your work. Don't make promises you can't keep. And those are principles that are applicable, whether you're negotiating an international peace agreement, or whether you're negotiating a better deal on your lease. What do you consider the most significant deal of your career? And what do you consider the most complex or challenging deal that you're able to successfully help negotiate? And what are your key takeaways from each of those experiences?

Ambassador Hill: Well, working with Holbrook and with a team of people from an interagency- it wasn't just State Department, we had Defense Department, we have the Joint Chiefs of Staff, we had various other people involved in the negotiation, I think, probably the most important deal I was involved in was in ending the war in Bosnia, and giving the parties their chance to work things out. And peace doesn't mean that things have been easy since then in Bosnia. But when we were dealing with it, there were over 100,000 people killed and counting, it was getting worse and worse. And so after the so-called Dayton Peace Accords took place in a US military base near Dayton, Ohio, there have been extremely few people killed in terms of this political conflict that existed before we all came together. So I'm very proud of being a part of that American effort. I don't think it could have worked without America committed to it without a, you know, top-notch team led by Dick Holbrooke. So that was a great, great opportunity. The second negotiation I was involved in, in fact, I led on the US side, was the negotiation to try to get the North Koreans to stop producing nuclear weapons and to start understanding that their security could be achieved through other means. That was a very tough one. But I think that what was important for us was that before we started, it was called the six-party process. Before we had started, the US and South Korea- and South Korea was the main ally of the US in the region, in Northeast Asia- we had started kind of drifting in different directions, they had a very different approach to the negotiations than the US did. And I think we successfully kind of closed the gap in terms of the US/South Korean relationship. We managed the US and Japanese relationship and helped Japan and South Korea work together. And I think we found some sort of common denominators, patterns of cooperation with the Chinese. Ultimately, we were not successful in getting the North Koreans to cease and desist. We got them to shut down the proton plutonium production for a while and we had some success. But the problem is still out there. So one of the great things about being a new diplomat in the US is there's no lack of problems to deal with. And one of those, of course, is North Korea.

Adam: Can you take listeners through a meaningful negotiation that failed? Why did it fail and what did you learn?

Ambassador Hill: Well, I think many people would, even though I've kind of given the, you know, the silver lining of the North Korea negotiation, you could say it's failed because North Korea has continued to develop nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them. Why did it fail? Well, I think part of the problem is the fundamental problem is North Korea was clearly not ready to negotiate and is not ready to negotiate a way. It's the way. It's nuclear weapons. So one of the key aspects of any negotiation is timing. In the case of the Bosnian conflict, we felt and by the time we got to that, to Dayton, Ohio, we felt he was right for a solution. I'm not sure the North Korean issue has been right for a solution. I don't think the North Koreans have quite understood that they could have a better future without weapons than with these weapons. So I would say timing is a key aspect of why things sometimes fail. I think there has to be a kind of unity of effort. And while we close the gap with how we would deal with this with the South visa V, the South Koreans and the Japanese and to a great extent we worked well with the Chinese at the time. I think too often there were people who really didn't have a lot of faith in these negotiations, people even on our side. And so there was not the kind of unity of purpose, which is often needed to, you know, go in there and make concessions or get stuff done. So I'm not sure we ever were successful in kind of developing consensus. But I would go back to the earlier point that North Korea simply was not then, and frankly is not now, ready to negotiate away its nuclear weapons, which it considers a very important aspect of its entire identity. And I think future generations of US diplomats, we need to be tough on this, we need to make it clear to the North Koreans, we have a lot of options for dealing with this, but we don't have the option of just walking away from it. So I think we have to keep at it. And I think, eventually, to me, the logic of getting them to give up these weapons should prevail. So again, work in progress, like a lot of things in the world.

Adam: And going back to a fundamental point that's important to anyone listening to this conversation, it takes two parties to make a deal, you can't negotiate unilaterally. It doesn't work.

Ambassador Hill: You bet and you also have to sit down and talk to people, you can't just negotiate with dueling press conferences, or, you know, remotely, you have to sit down and talk to people understand where they're coming from, and make sure they understand where you're coming from, as well. And so, you know, North Korea's going to be a tough one, but it has to get resolved. And I do hope that whether it's this administration or future administration, we need a world without nuclear weapons.

Adam: Your career has been spent as a professional relationship builder, and at the highest levels. What are the keys to building winning relationships?

Ambassador Hill: Well, I think patience is important. I think too often we, as Americans, you know, we kind of, you know, fly out to country X and, you know, we're already in a state of deep jetlag and we expect the answers so we can go home and get some sleep. And I think we need to understand that in some cultures, when you meet for the first evening, you do not discuss the substance of the negotiations, you take it easy, you talk about other things, you try to develop personal relationships. You know, it is extraordinary that in such a technocratic society that we live in with all electronics, etc, that these personal chemistries remain important, and yet they are. So I think, sense of patience, and a sense of, you know, trying to put aside your, you know, your personal views, to try to reach relationships with people that, you know, maybe in the fullness of time, you're not going to be exchanging, you know, holiday greeting cards, but you need to figure out how to work with them. And what's the best way to get that done? And how can you in working with them eventually, deal with what it is you need to get done. And so the US negotiators, we’re a little more transactional than we'd like to admit. But it is a relationship game, and you've got to have the patience for it.

Adam: What can anyone listening to this conversation do to become a better leader?

Ambassador Hill: Well, I think leadership is a function of a lot of things. We've talked a lot about the negotiation and how you have to have people behind you, supporting you, but leadership is also a function of making sure the people around you are people that have confidence in you. And that means, first of all, one set of manners- don't, you know, kiss up and kick down- you to make sure you are the kind of person that has a straightforward personality and people realize that you will, you'll treat them with dignity and respect. I think that's good for anything. And I think, you know, when you ask for loyalty from people, you better be prepared to give loyalty to them. And I often thought that, you know, there was nothing I could do to help Larry Eagleburger in his career I mean, but what I could do was understand that the loyalty he showed to me as a pretty junior guy in his own organization is a loyalty that I could show to other junior people. And so we learned those lessons of understanding that loyalty is a two-way street. Be with people when they're down, you know, help them. I saw this in North Korea where people were just very discouraged. And you've got to be the cheerleader in chief as well. And you've got to be someone who looks forward and, as they say, is a people person. And ultimately, people are going to like success the most and, you know, make sure you've got some successes and sometimes, you know, it's not going to be pulling a rabbit out of a hat. It's going to be the time you spend stuffing the rabbit into the hat, to make sure that you can, at some point, show success by doing something that pleasantly surprises a lot of people.

Adam: Ambassador Hill, thank you for all the great advice and thank you for being a part of Thirty Minute Mentors.

Ambassador Hill: My pleasure. Good luck to you guys. It's a great program.


Adam Mendler is the CEO of The Veloz Group, where he co-founded and oversees ventures across a wide variety of industries. Adam is also the creator and host of the business and leadership podcast Thirty Minute Mentors, where he goes one on one with America's most successful people - Fortune 500 CEOs, founders of household name companies, Hall of Fame and Olympic gold medal winning athletes, political and military leaders - for intimate half-hour conversations each week. Adam has written extensively on leadership, management, entrepreneurship, marketing and sales, having authored over 70 articles published in major media outlets including Forbes, Inc. and HuffPost, and has conducted more than 500 one on one interviews with America’s top leaders through his collective media projects. A top leadership speaker, Adam draws upon his insights building and leading businesses and interviewing hundreds of America's top leaders as a top keynote speaker to businesses, universities and non-profit organizations.

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